Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

[Ezra]

Where was the deathbed salvation for those in Proverbs 1:22-33? Those who reject God up to the point of death will not find God, God will not hear them.

they failed to turn to God . there is no certain time frame when man can be saved whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.. the thief on the cross .turned to God just before death . i do not recommend it for as some death can be sudden without warning. as long as there is a sound mind and breath there is hope and one can be saved ,

 

[Ezra]

Amen Helen!!
God is so gracious that He allows us His salvation until our last breath!

AMEN AMEN ! WHY LIMIT HIS GRACE ?

 

[Ezra]

Baptism has been COMMANDED so it therefore cannot be any exceptions, no "normative means".


Again, YOU continue to make exceptions when God has made NONE.

The 'thief argument' has been debunked ad nauseum times. He is not an example of NT gospel salvation nor have you proven he was never baptized.

you sir are a legalist

 

[Nancy]

AMEN AMEN ! WHY LIMIT HIS GRACE ?

Tru dat me brother!
So many do try to limit our limitless God...SMH, sad and, my guess is that they do not have any idea they are doing it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What world do you live in? I live in THIS world...and I have seen it with my own eyes...more than once..

You have a very tiny legalistic mind!! God is bigger than your little boxed up God!!!!

But you have not shown me where the NT gospel teaches deathbed salvation.
God does not hear sinners calling out from a deathbed John 9:31.
The NT teaches one must believe (john 8:24) repent of sins (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mark 16:16) to be saved. If one cannot do this from their deathbed they have waited to late to be saved. "Today is the day of salvation" for no one is promised tomorrow.

Matthew 25:1-13 shows one must be PREPARED to be saved for one does not know when he will die or Christ will return.
--Kingdom of heaven refers to the church.
--Christ is the bridegroom
--The virgins were members of the church, wise were prepared, unwise not prepared.
They slumbered and slept refers figuratively they died.
At midnight the bridegroom Christ cometh, Christ's second coming.


Those foolish virgins were unprepared and did not find salvation "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." No deathbed salvation for them. Note also those foolish virgins said "And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out." They could not borrow preparedness from one who was prepared.


Again, deathbed salvation is nothing more than an invention of man to push faith only-ism and get around what the NT teaches is required to be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

you sir are a legalist

The word legalist is not found in the Bible. Those who obeyed God are called righteous.

People who throw the word legalism around generally define the word anyway they choose.

A little history on the word legalist: (my emp)

"Legalism seems to be like a poem – no one can seem to define it, but everyone thinks they know it when they see it. However, it may surprise you to know that the English word “legalism” itself was not coined until 1645. Even more importantly, there is no Hebrew or Greek word in the Bible that means “legalism.” This latter fact is seldom appreciated. In all of the debates that Paul had with Judaizing teachers, in all the responses he had to their teachings, not once did he ever call them “legalists.” Why not? Because of the simple reason that every Jew – including Jesus, Paul, the Pharisees, and the Judaizers – believed that a person’s works, his deeds, his obedience to God, was without doubt part of a right relationship with God. Within Judaism, that was never at issue. No Jew in that day and age debated whether or not “works” were part of being right with God. Everyone agreed that they were."

"It was only after Martin Luther came up with his doctrine of “faith only” (which he, mistakenly, attributed to the apostle Paul) that the modern idea of “legalism” was born. Ever since that time, it has been common to refer to people who emphasize obedience to God in deeds (works) which are demanded by God’s word as “legalists.” But, as I pointed out above, in the days of Jesus and the apostles, whether or not people should actually obey God with deeds of righteousness was never an issue. One of the implications of this fact is that it is not accurate (it is, specifically, anachronistic) to describe Paul’s debate with the Judaizers as a debate over legalism. It simply was not part of the problem. They didn’t even have a word for it!"

"So what is legalism? Is legalism a matter of being “too strict” about God’s demands? If so, where in the Bible is the list of things about which we should be strict and the things we can be lax about? Who decides when someone is being too strict? Or is legalism a failure to talk enough about the internal qualities a Christian must have, and talking too much about external obedience? If so, where in the Bible is the passage that tells me how much emphasis on external good deeds is too much? How can I measure when I have not emphasized the internal requirements of God “enough”? Am I a legalist simply because I don’t say it to another’s satisfaction? The fact is that both a right heart and good deeds are required before God. “I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds” (Jer 17.10)."

"Or, is legalism the idea that “external” works, by themselves, will earn a person enough merit to get to heaven? I have to admit, I have never (in the thousands of pages of theological literature I have read in my lifetime) seen it defined that way, and I don’t believe I have ever met anyone who actually believes that. If no one defines it this way and no one believes it when stated that way, then the term “legalist” is nothing other than a straw-man, a caricature that has no correspondence to a real person or an actual doctrine."

"One modern scholar has put it this way: “…the term only has meaning within the context of a prior decision as to the relationship between faith and human response. … In Christian theology, the meaning of legalism varies with the soteriology of the individual user and his or her tradition” (K. Yinger, “Defining Legalism” Andrews University Seminary Studies 46 (2008) 91-108; at 96-97). Let’s put that into common English: the term “legalism” is so imprecise that it means nothing. It means whatever the person who is using the term thinks it means, or wants it to mean. But that’s not how communication is accomplished. We communicate when we both use words that we understand in the same way. When someone uses a word (like “legalism”) in a way that they alone define, then they are not actually communicating anything."
Defining "Legalism"


"Legalists" is just a made up term used to hurl -to name call those who do not go along with the faith only heresy of Luther.

 

[Ezra]

"Legalists" is just a made up term used to hurl -to name call those who do not go along with the faith only heresy of Luther.

im sorry did you say something ??/??

 

[Helen]

But you have not shown me where the NT gospel teaches deathbed salvation.
God does not hear sinners calling out from a deathbed John 9:31.
The NT teaches one must believe (john 8:24) repent of sins (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mark 16:16) to be saved. If one cannot do this from their deathbed they have waited to late to be saved. "Today is the day of salvation" for no one is promised tomorrow.

Matthew 25:1-13 shows one must be PREPARED to be saved for one does not know when he will die or Christ will return.
--Kingdom of heaven refers to the church.
--Christ is the bridegroom
--The virgins were members of the church, wise were prepared, unwise not prepared.
They slumbered and slept refers figuratively they died.
At midnight the bridegroom Christ cometh, Christ's second coming.


Those foolish virgins were unprepared and did not find salvation "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." No deathbed salvation for them. Note also those foolish virgins said "And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out." They could not borrow preparedness from one who was prepared.


Again, deathbed salvation is nothing more than an invention of man to push faith only-ism and get around what the NT teaches is required to be saved.

Well I'm glad that you aren't God. Phew!

 

[Helen]

Those foolish virgins were unprepared and did not find salvation "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." No deathbed salvation for them. Note also those foolish virgins said "And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out." They could not borrow preparedness from one who was prepared.

You spin it to suit yourself... They were all VIRGINS...they ALL slumbered and slept.
They were told to go and buy from them that sold...and they did ..and when they came to the door , with oil, ..the door was shut.

They were not LOST , they were still virgins, with oil...but they were shut out of the Millennial reign ...they could not partake of the 1000 reign with Christ.

I agree with @Ezra you are a heard hearted legalist.
If your heart wasn't as hard, you may be able to see Father God as He is..not how you would be if you were God.

If you read the parable of the 10 talents you would see how the one servant judged God as harsh and hard...and God says " Okay, if that is how you see me..I'll judge you by your own heart. "

"Be careful in what measure you use for it will be measure back unto you."

 

[Helen]

legalism
What God wants and what He doesn't want.
Obey all the rule.
Don't you know that you ought to do this...but you must not do that.

You must Reject Colourful clothes. Get rid of everything in your wardrobe that is not white or black.
Stop sleeping on a soft pillow. Get rid of all the fun things and entertainment in your house, Sell your TV and radio.

Don't laugh too much ...don't this and don't that...
THEN if you have got it all right, God will then love you and you are righteous .

My bible says that God ear is ALWAYS open to their cry...young, old, or on the deathbed.

 

[Ezra]

.but they were shut out of the Millennial reign ...they could not partake of the 1000 reign with Christ.

i must say i have never heard this

 

[Helen]

i must say i have never heard this

Just something I believe the Lord showed me, when I asked Him how they could be Virgins , but lost because of laziness ( not sinful disobedience ) h
Something I hold lightly and believe...
Some people teach it differently...but up to now nothing else has 'clicked' with me...so, unless or until God show me otherwise...I hold it...

 

[Ezra]

Just something I believe the Lord showed me, when I asked Him how they could be Virgins , but lost because of laziness ( not sinful disobedience ) h
Something I hold lightly and believe...
Some people teach it differently...but up to now nothing else has 'clicked' with me...so, unless or until God show me otherwise...I hold it...

i will see i see it differently but t each there own. it just caught my eye .in never seeing this

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You spin it to suit yourself... They were all VIRGINS...they ALL slumbered and slept.
They were told to go and buy from them that sold...and they did ..and when they came to the door , with oil, ..the door was shut.

They were not LOST , they were still virgins, with oil...but they were shut out of the Millennial reign ...they could not partake of the 1000 reign with Christ.

makes me think of (Luke 11:5-9) especially “And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

 

[Ezra]

every thing i reda as long as there is a sound mind to understand .breath to breathe .there is time left to get saved. i don't recommend waiting that long. many has passed in thee sleep .perished in auto accidents one thing for sure when death happens your either ready or not... there is no 2nd chance after death

 

[Nancy]

Well I'm glad that you aren't God. Phew!

Just one thing to say about deathbed conversions. Mt. Bass quoted John 9:31. Were we not ALL sinners before we became saved? Did God NOT hear our prayers? Is it NOT His will that ANY should perish but instead, come to Him, whom He will in NO WISE cast out? I'm with you Helen....BTW- I only recently noticed you are going by your given name now! Happy Thanksgiving!!! xoxo

 

[Enoch111]

BTW- I only recently noticed you are going by your given name now!

She's hoping to be mistaken for Helen of Troy.

 

[Helen]

She's hoping to be mistaken for Helen of Troy.

View attachment 7893

Haha!! Well found. Good one.
Yep, wise is the person who introduced a bottle of champagne launching ships.

 

[Nancy]

She's hoping to be mistaken for Helen of Troy.@Enoch111 , you are such a pill! Helen, say it isn't so

 

[Enoch111]

Helen, say it isn't so

I know. I was just kidding. And Helen can take a ribbing any time.