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Israel and Predestination

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by epouraniois, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    epouraniois, just to make sure that I am understanding your points from the original post (I did not read the entire thread here, nor do I have time to at the moment, but if you think most necessary, I shall try to). You are arguing for the predestination of the Saints and the choosing of Israel, though not necessarily the predestination of Israel? I would certainly agree with the predestination of the Saints: Scripture gives no reason to believe otherwise. As for God not choosing Israel before the foundation of the world... I do not read that He did, nor do I read that He does not... I do not believe that it is an issue addressed in the Word of God. Yes... confusing the title for this thread is, but I understand now. You may have mentioned the such when you created the thread, be that as it may. (I was expecting to read about Easter, which is very interesting subject, as well.)
     
  2. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    hello writer4hisglory, The time of Israel's choosing can be readily seen in Genesis, which is the record of events which occurred regarding Israel, since, or 'from the foundation of the world', as Matt. 25 plainly observes. From the foundation and before the foundation cannot be in the same time frame. They are different, compare ~Israel's kingdom promiseMatthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the worldThe churches heavenly promiseEphesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in loveDo you see the difference? How about this verse ~ Revelations 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.Notice that the Lamb was not slain 'before the foundation of the world', but since, or, 'from the foundation of the world'See it? Another view, perhaps a side view so to speak, may be seen in these verses ~ To Israel Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world beganTo Jew and Greek Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, To the church, the secret kept since the world beganTitus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world beganI hadn't really thought about it, but you bring up an interstesting observation. Being that Israel was chosen 'from the foundation of the world', it seems logical to me that, although Israel has a predestination, the time of God's choosing places that predestination at the time of her choosing. Obviously, the LORD knew would be likely to walk according to the preset boundaries before they were made known.do you think it is possible for the LORD to predestine Israel's boundaries and their associations before the time of their choosing while at the same time 'from the foundatio of the world'?as i see it, we must conform to the OT usages of the word, for it is the OT which was known at the time of NT writings. They did not have the doctrine as set forth in the mystery body to muddle their affairs.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If you believe this you have know knowledge of Gods overall plan from the beginning you are lost in details of the battles and can not see the war
     
  4. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    (kriss;9467)
    If you believe this you have know knowledge of Gods overall plan from the beginning you are lost in details of the battles and can not see the war
    If this was addressed meI don't seem to recall the reference, could you please quote me so I can read it. Thank you.
     
  5. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    (epouraniois;9447)
    hello writer4hisglory, The time of Israel's choosing can be readily seen in Genesis, which is the record of events which occurred regarding Israel
    Not only regarding Israel, but also regarding the entire human race. If you recall that God told the serpant that He (God) would put an emnity between her (Eve's) seed and his (Satan's) seed... this could, perhaps, be in reference to the nation that God would bring about, and certainly means Christ who would come from the lineage of this nation, the Son of David. Though, I would be nearing eisegesis to say that this is what God was referring to when He made this statement. We do know that God knows of everything beforehand, this would fall under His omniscience. So, we can safely say that God had a purpose for Israel before the foundation of the world. But this is a deduction, I believe... though a proper one.
    Israel's kingdom promiseMatthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the worldThe churches heavenly promiseEphesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in loveDo you see the difference?
    Yes, I do see the difference: One is "since" the foundation of the world, and another is "before" the foundation of the world. But... could it not mean that at the time of the foundation of the world, God had a plan for a Kingdom? Could this also mean that this plan for the Kingdom existed before the foundation of the world? Hmm interesting thoughts...
    How about this verse ~ Revelations 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.Notice that the Lamb was not slain 'before the foundation of the world', but since, or, 'from the foundation of the world'See it?
    I had to check this one out for myself... for a moment there I thought that the "him" that these worship was Christ, but rather, I find that the "him" is the beast. Context is always so important. This, too, could it mean that the lamb was slain before the foundation (based upon my previous explanation of "from")? This would make sense, as if it were "from" the foundation of the world as we would naturally understand it, then Christ would not have been slain before sin entered into the world. What an interesting concept! And one that I must study out!
    Another view, perhaps a side view so to speak, may be seen in these verses ~ To Israel Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world beganTo Jew and Greek Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, To the church, the secret kept since the world beganTitus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began
    What a thing that the secret was kept "since" the world began, and those chosen, were chosen "before" the world began. But yes, this too makes sense, as from whom would God keep the secret if none else were in existence? What a issue this brings up, these two simple words: From and Before.
    I hadn't really thought about it, but you bring up an interstesting observation. Being that Israel was chosen 'from the foundation of the world', it seems logical to me that, although Israel has a predestination, the time of God's choosing places that predestination at the time of her choosing. Obviously, the LORD knew would be likely to walk according to the preset boundaries before they were made known.do you think it is possible for the LORD to predestine Israel's boundaries and their associations before the time of their choosing while at the same time 'from the foundatio of the world'?
    I think it greatly possible. God is, as mentioned before, omniscient, and knows everything even before it happens. So this would be a logical conclusion. Though, the Word of God does not major on such issues as this one... "When was Israel predestined?" We know for certain that God does have a plan for nation Israel, that plan has not yet been completed, and it shall be literally completed at a future time. We know that predestination for the Saints, according to the word of God happened before the foundation of the world. How does this distinction separate us from the issue of Israel's predestination? I'm not sure.
    as i see it, we must conform to the OT usages of the word, for it is the OT which was known at the time of NT writings. They did not have the doctrine as set forth in the mystery body to muddle their affairs.
    Agreed, but predestination may also be understood in the New Testament useage of the term as well. Context is extremely important, as you have shown that you know. As far as the boundaries go, are you referring to the lands that they were to inherit? Just making sure that I am understanding your post properly.
     
  6. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Thank you for the studious conversation writer4hisglory.
    Though, I would be nearing eisegesis to say that this is what God was referring to when He made this statement.
    I believe that is an approach based upon sound doctrine, and the first revelation of the mystery of Christ.
    So, we can safely say that God had a purpose for Israel before the foundation of the world. But this is a deduction, I believe... though a proper one.
    Difficulty arises here for me, as whatever nation HE would choose would most certainly have exacted this Name, they were not chosen as a nation until after, since, or, from, as it were, the foundation of the world. And being so, some other person than Abraham could have been the 'friend' of God, wherein the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 would come to bear. Moreover, we know why Abraham was chosen, and it was not for something in the previous earth age, but something Abram did on this side of the foundation of the world, receiving a new name, Abraham.
    Could this also mean that this plan for the Kingdom existed before the foundation of the world? Hmm interesting thoughts...
    I think the concept of the kingdom is so, for known to GOD were all His works from the beginning, but we can see that with such a great spiritual foe as Satan, like any wise leader, it should have been expected that GOD did not reveal all His mighty plan and purpose before hand, and while it unfolded in shadows and types, even then all was not made known, not until the earthly kingdom promise portion fell due to their disbelief did the new revelation called the mystery appear, the dispensation that now particularly obtains, namely that He has revealed that the heavens also will be inhabited-whose choosing was a prior set boundary. You know that had to burn Satan up (pun intended), to speak as the flesh. Moreover, where there is no king there is no kingdom, and they refused their king, hence, Hosea 3 and Isa. 6:9-10=kingdom now in abeyance.
    What a issue this brings up, these two simple words: From and Before.
    Holy words of earth is the result of having tried them as in a furnace seven times, writes the Psalmist, albeit a rather difficult verse.
    "When was Israel predestined?" We know for certain that God does have a plan for nation Israel, that plan has not yet been completed, and it shall be literally completed at a future time.We know that predestination for the Saints, according to the word of God happened before the foundation of the world. How does this distinction separate us from the issue of Israel's predestination? I'm not sure.
    I believe that whoever God would have chosen, they would take on the Name Israel of necessity, however, I must confess that while most everyone claims Israel are those who maintained allegiance to God in the previous earth age, and indeed some were, it seems that maybe that is a jump to conclusion in light of those who were chosen before the foundation of the world to be as Christ is, namely far above all as well as holy and without blame, unblemished "with" Him. It can be seen that the attributes of Christ are also the attributes of the members of His body, namely the time of choosing, their standing, their inheritance.While at the same time, Christ stated that He would not repair the rent with something new, bringing in the idea of pleroma (fulness) as well as using God's weakness to overcome Satan's strengths.The word 'with' is extreme as used of the members of the church which is His body, see it's usage in 3 Col. 3-4 and else where in the prison epistles, not the same as 'meta'. Not the same at all! Israel will be with (near or among) Him while the church of the Mystery body will be with (for His completion) Him when He appears in the super-heavenly sphere before coming (parousia) to the earth.The kingdom of promise is under the heavens while the kingdom of His Dear Son is super-heavenly. All fall under the larger view of the kingdom of God which includes all kingdoms, both in heaven and in the earth.
    As far as the boundaries go, are you referring to the lands that they were to inherit? Just making sure that I am understanding your post properly.
    While that is the OT usages, yes, but we are also given a NT usage thus (I cannot recall if I posted this on this board before or not, if so, I can't recall where) ~A word on predestination is in order.First it must be realized that there are no Biblical unbelievers referred to in the doctrine of predestination. the word comes down to us from two Greek words, pro, or prior, and, horizo, or horizon. It is a prior horizon which has been set. The horizon is a boundary where the sky meets the earth or sea. This boundary has been prior set, and the Lord knows who will desire to walk within the Biblical pre-set boundary and who will not. Let us quickly acknowledge that the Bible declares, there are vessels unto honor and vessels unto dishonor. All will be raised, the just and the unjust. Christ died for the ungodly. He was made sin for us in the reconciling of the world. We need to be reconciled unto this fact declares the apostle of the reconciliation (Paul).The word predestination has been taken to an extreme not found in the Bible. That we can see the word destiny in the word does not come into the Biblical window. The measure is faith, and the walk is one of two found in the Bible. The righteous can only be found so in so far as they are covered with the righteousness of Christ.To argue that some are destined to perish for all ages begs the review in the difficulty to see how any one holding such a doctrine, could ever preach the gospel of salvation, could ever contemplate the "plucking" of even "one brand from the burning" or why anyone should bother to preach at all.Predestination occurs twice in Ephesians, once it is "unto adoption" and once to an "inheritance" (1:5,11). This second occurrence falls into line with the usage of the LXX. Horizo in the LXX is found in the proximity of the words kleros and kleronomia, words that mean "the obtaining of an inheritance by lot"."This shall be your west border" horion (Num. 34:6). "Jordan shall be their boundary, horizo, on the east: this is the inheritance (kleronomia) of the children of Benjamin" (Joshua 18:20 LXX)."See, that I have given to you (lit. "cast upon you") these nations that are left to you by lots (klerois) to your tribes . . . and the boundaries (or he shall be bound horizo) shall be at the great sea westward" (Josh. 23:4 LXX).C.Welch writes ~In the context of most of the references to horizo will be found words that mean an inheritance obtained by lot. Seeing that the Apostle has linked "predestination" prohorizo with "obtaining an inheritance" (kleroo), this O.T. usage must be recognized. Predestination, or "marking off beforehand" is what every one does when he makes a will. Here, in the Will of the Father, we are permitted to see that "adoption" and "inheritance" are secured. That a human "will" is a permissible analogy, Galatians 3:15 and 4:1,2 will make dear. Those who were chosen in Christ before the overthrow of Genesis 1:2, were also (in addition to God's earthly peoples) "marked off before hand" and as the R.V. reads were "foreordained unto adoption".Turning to the section that speaks of predestination we read:"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29,30).The simple analysis of the passages ~A PREDESTINATION-Conformity. Steps leading toB PURPOSE-Christ. Firstborn among many brethrenA PREDESTINATION-Glory. Steps leading to.The word proginosko, to foreknow, occurs five times in the N.T., and the noun, prognosis, twice, making seven references in all. Acts 2:23; Acts 26:4,5; Rom. 8:29; Rom. 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Pet. 3:17A Reference to Christ and His sacrifice (Acts 2:23)B Reference to man and his previous knowledge of facts (Acts 26:4,5)C Reference to the elect people of God (Rom. 8:29; 11:2, 1 Petr. 1:2)A Reference to Christ and His sacrifice (1 Petr. 1:20)B Reference to man and his foreknowledge as a result of Scriptual testimony (2 Petr. 3:17)In John 17 we find the Christ in prayer, stating that 'thy word is truth'. Let us hold fast the form of sound words and not be carried off by every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men who lie in wait to deceive.* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body* - ‘Then cometh the end’ (1Co 15:24)He is excepted* - God all in all’ (1Co 15:28)Son also Himself subject unto Him
     
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