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Israel and Predestination

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by epouraniois, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    She means you never make a point you talk in circles why can't you ever just state your believe and /or point in English and then just give us the scriptures you are using to come to your conclusion your post are fruitless no one can ever figure out your point it changes as you go along. It teaches nothing it only quotes scripture which we already know. But you use it in a way to prove other scripture without ever clarifying what you are saying.As it is said if you go to Rome and preach in Chinese what is the point they will not understand.You put people in a position of grasping 4 or 5 sentences out of your post and trying to discuss them Only the 4 or 5 sentences were not your point only used to further it. Then you can argue that you are right. This isn't teaching scripture you use it to hide behind so you can avoid being proven wrong or right. I am not trying to be insulting only trying to make a point that as long as you been here noone has a clue what your belifes. How do we know whether we agree or disagree with you. All we know is you have studied the Bible. Well that means you are only one of many here.
     
  2. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    i will try to be more concise. thanks for the input.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You ask why your person is attached it is because you will not allow us to know you to understand what your beliefs are. Yet you want us to believe what you are saying this is why I accuse you of hiding behind scripture.Are you for or against Israel and the Jews? Do believe in the rapture,Do you know Anti-christ comes first. Are you from a certain religious background how long have been reading scripture? You don't have to answer the questions the point I'm making is we do not blindly follow strangers and you have chosen to remain just that.
     
  4. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (epouraniois)
    But only Israel has ever been given any covenant relationship with God, Biblically, and Biblically is all I am concerned with here.
    I was asking about Noah in response to this. On a simple reading, it seems that God did make a covenant with people who were not Israel. That covenant does apply to Gentiles, and you appear to agree that it is still honored today.To me, it seems you abolish much of scripture from the conversation with your talk of captivity epistles, so I think I must be misunderstanding you. [​IMG] The mystery in Ephesians is likely mentioned in Romans. Abraham is the father of all who believe, Jew or not. This is talked about in Romans 4, before the close of Acts. (though probably Paul doesn't use the word "mystery" except in chapters 11 and 16).When you mention blessings that are not Jewish in nature, perhaps here I understand you. The blessings come to all, not just Jews. Anyone can be encouraged to be washed clean. But I associate the blood with the new covenant. Are you trying to say that Jesus did a bunch of separate things with the cross/blood?
     
  5. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Have any of you stopped to consider that some live in a persecuted country? that your "persistent" cookies must be edited from here so I can log in via proxy? That if I weren't a white hat anti-hacker, I might not be safe to share at all? Stop judging me, please. The Bible is not about me, it is to the Glory of Him who SENT it.Accusing me of hiding behind circles of Scripture. Oh how terrible of me to put Scripture first, to show forth The Word rather than my own ridiculous self image? Shame on me !!!They made Paul say some ridiculous things, things he said would make him seem foolish. Yes, they desired that he boast and speak of himself rather than glorify Christ, and he hesitatingly appeased them, but nay, I am no apostle, I don't have to say I know this or that. All I need do is show the Scriptures, for it is Christ who can reveal their true meaning, not me. I can only show where things are written, something of the meaning of the words of where, when, to whom these Scriptural usages say they apply, the parallel and contrasting contexts which are given, and given for our learning.You should know me by my works. You acknowledge I study Scripture. That is my works. But I will answer some questions nevertheless, nevertheless, I would say when people desire the condensed version, I wonder if they are really not saying they already know it all, have already read it all, and having done so, have their beliefs set, not any more willing to actually read and study to the furtherance of glorifying Christ and Christ risen. Yes, it is all about them, what they think, their judgments, their needs.To this I can only point out that we are reading of God, who is rich in mercy, and of riches, exceeding riches of abounding and super abounding grace, truth, with abundant love which is in Christ Jesus.And this Book we study is not short, is not disjointed, but connected on the deepest of levels, showing forth much more than any of are able to fully plumb ~1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. And I am being asked to make it short and not connect some of the many things the apostles and prophets have received of Him?All I can do is try.
    Are you for or against Israel and the Jews?
    Israel is God's chosen earthly people, to be a channel of blessings to the nations. Israel has much prophetic Scripture yet to be fulfilled.As it is written, "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (Rom 11:15)
    Do believe in the rapture
    No, I believe in resurrection.
    Do you know Anti-christ comes first
    Yes, the Scripture makes this abundantly clear.
    . Are you from a certain religious background
    No. But I have faith that it is the Lord who does the revealing, that if we receive His chosen vessels words, then we receive Him who SENT it.
    how long have been reading scripture?
    3 years, prayerfully.
     
  6. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    B'midbar My talk of captivity epistles? What about the inspired apostles talk ?There is "direct evidence" that Paul was a prisoner when he reached Rome. "I was delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. . . I appeal(ed) unto Cresar . . . for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:17-20). While Paul was in this condition, he received a deputation of Jews to his "lodging".Acts 28:16 that "Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him"During Paul's early ministry, the Jew had consistently opposed the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles, and this, said the Apostle, was their climax sin."They 'killed the Lord Jesus' but forgiveness was given and a new opportunity to believe and repent was granted. They had earlier 'killed their own prophets' and had more recently 'persecuted' the Apostle and his helpers 'forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved', reaching however a climax 'To FILL UP their sins alway; for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost (Moffatt reads 'To the bitter end,')' (I Thess.2:15,16).Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you GentilesTHE PRISON EPISTLESSTRUCTURE SHOWING THEIR DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINESAND THEIR INTER-RELATIONKey Words #A EPHESIANS The dispensation (3:2 and 9 R.V.) Mystery (3:3) Seated together The church which is His body (1:22,23) The fulness (1:23,4:10) Christ the Head (1:22) Principalities and powers (1:21)Key Words B PHILIPPIANS Try the things that differ (1:10 margin) The Prize Strive (1:27) Press toward the mark (3:14)Prize (3:14)Depart.* (1:23) Offered.* (2:17) C PHILEMON The Truth in practiceKey Words #A COLOSSIANS Dispensation (1:25) Mystery (1:26) Complete in Him The church which is His body (1:24) Fulness (1:19) Christ the Head (2:19) Principalities and powers (1:16, 2:10)Key Words B 2 TIMOTHY Rightly dividing the Word (2:15) The Crown Strive (2:5) Course finished (4:7)Crown (4:8)Depart.* (4:6) Offered.* (4:6). # None of these expressions occur in Philippians or 2 Timothy.* Only occurrences in Paul's epistles.Where and what are Israel's blessings? (church of the wilderness-Acts7; the entire OT, &c.)Where and what are the overcomers who are likened to a brides blessings? (Hebrews11-12; Galatians4; Revelation3:12, &c.)Where and what are the blessing of the church which is His body? (Ephesians1:3, 1:20-23, 2:6, &c.)Noah, yes, Jehovah God did make a covenant with all flesh, that He would not destroy the earth with water again. This is not the new covenant, which is specifically to and for the house of Israel and the house of Judah.The Lord will again take up His outworking with Israel at some point, as per Scripture. And we know what that point is don't we? See Matt. 23:39.Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. This offer was made during Acts, the words, 'sure mercies of David' come to mind immediately ~Isa 55:3 Incline your ear (Israel), and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you (Israel) the sure mercies of David.
     
  7. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    B'midbar My talk of captivity epistles? What about the inspired apostles talk ?There is "direct evidence" that Paul was a prisoner when he reached Rome.
    Yes. I agree about Paul being a prisoner in Rome!I meant no offense by “captivity epistles”. To me, this is the standard name of those written while Paul is in chains. I use it unconsciously. You had mentioned several of them earlier, and since you also mentioned the end of Acts, where Paul is in captivity, and you seemed to mention that we are to see a demarcation in Paul’s message at that point, I wondered about Romans, which was not written while he is in chains. It is written before the end of Acts, yet, to me, it seems to talk about stuff that you seem to say it ought not talk about, because it is too early, that is, before that point in Acts.For example, at the end of Romans, Paul says the mystery has been manifested to the Gentiles, the long hidden mystery. I think that is what he is talking about in parts of Romans like 3 and 4. But you seem to say can’t be talking about this, because it was not revealed until he was in chains in Rome?
    Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
    Are you saying the mystery about the Gentiles in Romans is different from the mystery about the Gentiles in Ephesians?There is a lot of info on this thread, btw, so it is hard for me to follow. It isn't that the scripture is unfamiliar, though.
     
  8. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    B'midbar,It's probably just me being edgy for whatever reason, but thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.You said, "For example, at the end of Romans, Paul says the mystery has been manifested to the Gentiles, the long hidden mystery. I think that is what he is talking about in parts of Romans like 3 and 4. But you seem to say can’t be talking about this, because it was not revealed until he was in chains in Rome?"Yes, this is what the Bible says, and what I am longsuffering to show forth with Scripture.In the letter to Romans, Paul still had the hope and calling of Israel in view. With this hope in the apostles heartfelt love for his kinsmen of the flesh, Paul could not at that time write about Israel being totally blinded. The Acts was written afterwards to explain what happened THEN.At the very end of Israel's hope, the kingdom was still 'at hand', and 'nigh'. It was near. ALL THE ACTS period letters, Paul, James, John, Jude, Peter, ALL looked for the soon return of the Lord, His coming back to the earth, and their being resurrected, changed. Paul has just quoted Isa. 6:9-10 for the third and final time. Paul has been working the miracles from Mark 16, but the Jews 'divorce' in vv. 25, then that dreadful fulfillment of Isa, and finally, with emphasis, the apostle says to the Jews ~Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.After this, Paul writes what are commonly referred to as his prison epistles, so called because each bear the marks of prison in them. There are four. And also Paul wrote 3 which were of a more personal nature, and not so much for instruction and practice.In them are fulfilled this verse, saith the Lord ~Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I (Christ Jesus) have appeared unto thee (Paul) for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness BOTH of these things (1) which thou hast seen, and (2) of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Later we find Paul writing that it is 'the mystery' which completes the Word of God. It is in the context of having been hid but now made known to the gentiles. Gentiles being the same Greek word as Nations, and, Heathen.And this, writes Paul, concerns a new creation, called a dispensation, elsewhere translated 'stewardship', and, 'edifying'. A dispensation has to do with the administration of a household. These administrations are SENT, apostello, by sent ones.The word used for this 'one new man', is 'create' (ktizō), and the measure is a full grown husband. Everything is different in the apostles prison ministry. This is what I am trying to bring out. But these things are spiritually discerned, they are not found in the OT, the Gospels, nor during the Acts letters. All those were foundational, writes the apostle in Ephesians 2.So we learn that Christ has a calling. That is a first. We learn that gentiles have a calling blessed without the mediation of Israel. Another first. Further it is written that God has plans for the habitation and inheritance in the heavenly places. And these types of 'firsts' do not stop. This church has every blessing which is spiritual, none withheld (the Greek makes known, Eph.1.3) These are but the beginnings of a long steady stream of never before made known secrets that God had hid within Himself, and are in effect NOW. So if God hid this secret in Himself, who can find it in the OT, or even as far forward as Romans? We can't, says the apostle. These are the letters with the name 'nations' stamped on the envelope. They are for the hope of you gentiles.It is important to realize that when the Salvation of God was SENT to the nations, Israel took her place amidst them. Israel has not been the preeminent and favored nations since that dreadful prophecy condemned them to their blindness and hardness of heart. This is Israel's Lo-ammi period. It is the times of the gentiles. And the purpose is not earthly as it was during the previous dispensation of promise, thus ~Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our LordThe Dividing Line ~Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.The Mystery Body does not look for the coming of the Lord, rather, their hope and calling is so intimated with Christ, that they look to appear in the heavenly places when He appears, see Col. 3:3-4. Christ is not now manifest, He is HID IN GOD.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Have any of you stopped to consider that some live in a persecuted country? that your "persistent" cookies must be edited from here so I can log in via proxy? That if I weren't a white hat anti-hacker, I might not be safe to share at all? Stop judging me, please. The Bible is not about me, it is to the Glory of Him who SENT it.Accusing me of hiding behind circles of Scripture. Oh how terrible of me to put Scripture first, to show forth The Word rather than my own ridiculous self image? Shame on me !!!They made Paul say some ridiculous things, things he said would make him seem foolish. Yes, they desired that he boast and speak of himself rather than glorify Christ, and he hesitatingly appeased them, but nay, I am no apostle, I don't have to say I know this or that. All I need do is show the Scriptures, for it is Christ who can reveal their true meaning, not me. I can only show where things are written, something of the meaning of the words of where, when, to whom these Scriptural usages say they apply, the parallel and contrasting contexts which are given, and given for our learning.You should know me by my works. You acknowledge I study Scripture. That is my works. But I will answer some questions nevertheless, nevertheless, I would say when people desire the condensed version, I wonder if they are really not saying they already know it all, have already read it all, and having done so, have their beliefs set, not any more willing to actually read and study to the furtherance of glorifying Christ and Christ risen. Yes, it is all about them, what they think, their judgments, their needs.To this I can only point out that we are reading of God, who is rich in mercy, and of riches, exceeding riches of abounding and super abounding grace, truth, with abundant love which is in Christ Jesus.And this Book we study is not short, is not disjointed, but connected on the deepest of levels, showing forth much more than any of are able to fully plumb ~1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. And I am being asked to make it short and not connect some of the many things the apostles and prophets have received of Him?All I can do is try. Israel is God's chosen earthly people, to be a channel of blessings to the nations. Israel has much prophetic Scripture yet to be fulfilled.As it is written, "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (Rom 11:15) No, I believe in resurrection.Yes, the Scripture makes this abundantly clear.No. But I have faith that it is the Lord who does the revealing, that if we receive His chosen vessels words, then we receive Him who SENT it.3 years, prayerfully.
    come on epo we were not asking for your personal information we are asking for enough information to discern your belifes where you stand how do we test you when you will not be clear about what you saying. Scripture means different things to differnt people depending on their level of understanding so when you just talk in scripture everyone takes something different from it that is why I asked you to be a plainer in your points. I wasn't attacking just trying to make you understand why we get frustrated with your posts. If you feel you have something important to say just say it then tell us why you believe it thats all.It is true that the bible is large book with deep meaning but some here picked it up yesterday others 20 years agoSo sometimes short lessons are appropriate. Whether you need them or not.
     
  10. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    everyone takes something different from it""which is why you always see me going far into the context, the other occurrences of the words being used, taking precept upon precept, verse upon verse, line upon lineit is the only way i know how to dig into the deep things of Godand it is by digging that we get to the best treasuressome like to dig, some are in their comfort zone and don't want further instruction, BUT I SAY, it is IMPOSSIBLE to PRACTICE without FIRST embracing the INSTRUCTIONAND THE BIBLE DOES NOT REVEAL THAT ALL ARE RESURRECTED TO THE SAME SPHERE OF BLESSING. INDEED, EACH HAS THEIR OWN INSTRUCTIONSEach adopted company of believers have a peculiar calling which is written and SENT especially to THEM. Each have a walk (practice) that is worthy. The many do not wish to know that there is MORE truth yet to be revealedwhere do we find MORE truth?ONLY IN HIS WORD
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Exactley but even Paul often started with the basics what point if you don't first say /make clear what you are teaching precept upon precept One verse can say 10 different things which are you telling. If you aren't precise on that Then you are just being prideful spouting your own knowledge without teaching anything.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The thing you need to remember when postings is there is no one there asking a question so when you just start posting the answer to an question in your head we have a difficult time grasping what you are saying
     
  13. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    "Exactly BUT. And there is it, the exactly comma but. I have asked no one to defend themselves, please don't feel the need. I am certain, that if you go read my threads, and my posts, you will find I naturally bring to bear those letters which have bearing on truth for today. And that there was a dividing line, so I quote oft, Acts 28:28, wherein we find that the Salvation of God is sent to the nations.THEN, Paul writes seven more letters, wherein he is unable to quote Scripture. Why? Because what was given the apostle was never before made known.It was hid in God and hid from ages and from generations. Please don't act like I have not been saying this from the git-go. Even a cursory glimpse of my posts would show this to be self evident.I readily understand that what the apostle is writing is hard to understand, but don't blame me for that. Paul says this understanding must be prayed for, and I concur wholly with his instructions, as, we cannot search for it in the Scriptures, why, even the angels desired to look into such matters, but it was a secret God hid within Himself. The mystery concerns the times of the gentiles, the time that now obtains, and a company called into a heavenly citizenship, far above all heavens of heavens. Yes, the mystery reveals that there was another choosing, one that was chosen long before Israel was chosen. And that this choosing pertains to the heavenly places.And it is from these epistles, and no other, where we can read of going to heaven.It certainly was not the hope set forth and looked for during the Acts. Nope, they looked for Israel to receive her kingdom of promise.The Mystery concerns the time NOW, the time where Israel is not being used by God, where angels are not ministering with the Hebrew priests, &c. &c.sh9owing this mystery as it is revealed from the Lord to you through Paul, is not being 'prideful'.
     
  14. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    YOu are condradicting yourself, your are claiming only you understand the teachings of Paul and no one else here can,except they do it through you, you hve named this thread a title completely unrelated to the thread and when I say that to twist scripture from its contextural meaning our disagree with me... and you think because I express my concern, I am attacking you...Epo please look... these things do not make any sense.. YOu are imagining a mystery only understood by you, God does not do such things... please see this...look at what we are saying not as an attack but concern for you...
     
  15. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    betchevy My writing says much about me. I write about the Lord and what He reveals through His chosen vessels. Your writing says much about you. You spend way too much time writing about me, calling me names and all sorts of childish emotional garbage.""your are claiming only you understand the teachings of Paul and no one else here can,except they do it through you""I would ask you to quote me on that, but since what you write is nothing but a boldfaced lie, you will not be able to quote me on that. And this is the same as the last time I asked you to back up your BS, you ignored that request to quote me then too, because you were lying then just as you are lying now.and so what if I am not anal retentive enough to disallow the thread to move where where it may? SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? IT MUST BE SOMETHING, OR YOU WOULD NOT GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO TELL LIES, PRACTICE NAME CALLING, AND ALL THOSE TERRIBLE JUDGMENTAL THINGS THE BIBLE WARNS US NOT TO PRACTICESo what exactly is YOUR PROBLEM??? Emotional, no doubt. Unfruitful and not the worthy walk of the practice set forth in Scripture. Why aren't you practicing the sound doctrine and the worthy walk? Perhaps it is because you need more instruction in the doctrinal portions, then you would know what to practice. What you are practicing here is not part of the walk that is worthy, lets review it really quick, the practice that one who has mastered the doctrine would be found doing ~Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (...)Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: (...)Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another. Why can't you just stick close to Scripture? Why do YOU insist in making my threads about Christ and His Glory, my threads about what has been done for us, about me and whatever you think of me?I mean, obviously YOU HAVE SOME SORT OF EMOTIONAL PROBLEM, PERHAPS YOU SHOULD GOTO THE DOCTOR AND GET SOME ADVICE ABOUT THOSE EMOTIONS YOU FEEL SO FREE TO DISTRIBUTEAS to date, YOU have yet to quote me on any problem you feel I bring to bear concerning the Scriptures.That says much about you. As for me, I simply wish to study the Scriptures. Sorry if that is, apparently, too much for you to handle, but that is not my fault.
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I believe this is what Bet has been trying to say correct me if i'm wrong Betis this big mystery that we were choosen before the foundation(predestined) that some were choosen to be the elect at the end if so we already know that and are aware of this teaching................................................................................1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Paul was a sent one by the will of God. Apostle means one sent forth. To the faithful in Christ Jesus, are the ones who reverence Christ. Written to a specific few of believers on an advanced level. 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. May blessings and peace be yours, sent to you from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. Again, written to those who love Christ. 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: How we praise God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every blessing in heaven because we belong to Christ. Paul mentions these heavenly places (5) times in his letter, five meaning grace. 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Chosen before this world age. Who were chosen? Those who fought and stood against Satan in the first world age. "The election" if you will. They were justified in the first earth age, just as God chose Paul. (Romans 8:27-33, II Peter 3:15). 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into His own family by sending Jesus Christ to die for us. According to God's will, not our will. 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. All the praise to God because He has poured out upon us, (The first fruit), because we belong to Christ. (Romans 8:27-32). 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Because of His love, He has taken away all of our sins through the blood of His own Son, by whom we are saved. 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Gives you insight into deep things, because He understands us and knows what is best for us. 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Before the foundation of the world (the mystery), God's reason for sending Christ, a plan He decided on in mercy long ago. Why was Christ sent to us you will find in (Hebrews 2:14). 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: When the time is ripe He will gather us all together from wherever we are in heaven or on earth, to be with Him in Christ forever. 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: All things happen just as God predestined it to happen. It is all part of God's sovereign plan that we were chosen from the beginning to be His. 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Those in the first earth age who overcame and first trusted in Christ.
     
  17. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    What I am saying has been proven by Eop himself,for taken out of the text of my post the quote EPo used makes me seem very harsh indeed, even though in my posts I expressed concern and clearly made my point.and used scripture...And just as his taking the verses out of context can be construed into what ever he wishes them to say, but not what Paul intended...
     
  18. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Kriss,this is my point, Paul has been given a new revelation. it is not something to be found in the OT, or in any of the other apostles writings. Yes, Peter and others do reveal three earth ages, but Israel was chosen since the foundation of the world, not before. Yes, the members which make up each calling were known before, but the times of choosing is different, the purpose is different, and their spheres of blessings are different.To recap:The Church of the One Body is characterized as “ONE NEW MAN” [Eph. 2:15]. The Church in the Acts economy and the Great Tribulation is likened to a BRIDE: ''For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ '' [2 Cor.11:2]Israel "according to the flesh'' had for its hope the EARTH as a place of blessing.''Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the EARTH.'' [Mat 5:5]These are of the circumcision. Christ said He came not but for the lost of Israel ONLY:“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [Mat 15:24] Christ did not “send” His to the gentile nations: “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [Mat 10:5, 6] Israel’s sphere of blessing is associated with the "Kingdom'' and an earthly city, EARTHLY JERUSALEM. In the Sermon on the Mount, the Israel was told to pray for this blessing: "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done ON EARTH, as it is in heaven'' [Matt. 6:10].Israel’s hope in this heavenly sphere of blessing is observed as coming "DOWN FROM GOD out of heaven.'' It is seen descending after the new heavens and new earth appear [Rev. 21 :1, 2, 9, 10]Abraham looked forward to the promise of this heavenly city: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” [Heb 11:10]“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:” [Isa 40:22] The church which is His body has a residence “far above all”, far above the heavens He stretched out as a curtain:“Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:” [Eph 1:21] THE MYSTERY WAS "HID'' in the heart of God: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:” [Eph. 3:9] FROM the beginning of the world.'' Notice that it was NOT HID IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, nor revieled before Acts 28:28. It was "hid in God''. The Mystery was hid from past ages and past generations "BUT NOW is made manifest to His saints": “Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truthl:” [Col. l :26]. THE MYSTERY WAS PLANNED "BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN'' :“Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” [(2 Tim. 1:9] This present Church is the only company of called out believers found in the Bible to have its origin "BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world'': “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” [Eph. 1 :4].The calling of the "kingdom'' is related to ISRAIL'S calling FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world'': “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:” [Matt. 25:34].The "ONE HOPE" of the Church of the Mystery was promised "BEFORE the world began'': “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;” [Eph. 4:4]“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” [ Titus 1:2]THE CHURCH OF THE ONE BODY IS TO GENTILES''For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles [nations].'' [Eph.3:1]"I Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,'' [Eph. 4:1]“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” [Eph. 2:10]“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity [the middle wall of partition], even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;” [Eph 2:15]Ephesians 2:12 says that at "that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:'' Notice how this has changed by the bringing in of a new dispensation:"BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye [Gentiles] . . . are made nigh by the blood of Christ'' [Eph. 2: 13]. It was "for this cause'' that Paul was a "prisoner of Jesus Christ for YOU GENTILES'' [Eph. 3:1]. The ministry of the Word of God has been "sent" to the Nations.Until the revelation of the Mystery, the oracles of God were committed to Israel:“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.” [Rom. 3:2, 3]This sacred secret was promised "in Christ before the world began'' [Titus 1 :2]. The "covenants'' and the "promises'' belonged to "the fathers of Israel [Rom. 9:3-5], not to the Church of the One Body:“For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”The promises made unto the "fathers'' were "FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world '' and the "covenants'' were made "SINCE the world began.'' The called-out believers in the church which is His body are called with a "holy calling, not according to our works. but accordingly His Own purpose and grace. which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN” [2 Tim. l :9], this eliminates the Church of the One Body from any connection with "covenants and promises'' that were made “SINCE the world began.”Romans 5:8 says that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision [Jews] for the purpose of CONFIRMING THE PROMISES MADE UNTO THE FATHERS, not the Church of the One Body. The "covenants'' were with Israel: Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:” [Rom I5:8]In Jeremiah 31:31-36, the Lord promised a NEW COVENANT with the "house of ISRAEL and JUDAH'', not the Church of the One Body. The Mystery was not veiled in language in the OT, it was "hid in God'' [Eph. 3:9], and the Mystery has no connection with any "covenants" either "old'' or "new''. God's present purpose was planned BEFORE the world began. This eliminates the need for any ties with "promises or covenants.''"The company of the One Body is ASCENDED, ACCEPTED. BLESSED, and SEATED together "IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus'':"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:'' [Eph.2:6]'' To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." [Eph. 1:6]''Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:'' [Eph. 1:3]THE WORD "CALLING" ~BEFORE ACTS 28:28Rom. 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"1 Cor. 1:26 "For ye see your calling, brethren.."1 Cor. 7:20 "abide in the same calling wherein he was called".2 Pet. 1:10 "…give diligence to make your calling and election sure…"2 Th. 1:11 "…count you worthy of this calling,"AFTER ACTS 28:28Eph. 4:4 "…called in one hope of your calling"Eph. 1:18 "…what is the hope of his calling"Phil. 3:14 "…the prize of the high calling of God..."2 Tim. 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling…" It is scriptural and acurate to say that the word ''calling'' is a word used by the LORD GOD to make known dispensational truth. The word “church” is a word relating to a “called” out people or nation.It is an elementary and fatal error to join the church before and after Acts, and yet, we see both of these periods joined and further spiritualized together with Israel in most every doctrine of man taught today, effectively severing the Head from the Body.THE PRAYER IS FOR THIS HIGH CALLING, THE MYSTERY BODY"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints” [Eph. l:18]It is a new calling, it is a HIGH CALLING:“I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” [Phil. 3:14],and a "HOLY CALLING'': “Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” [2 Tim. l:9],“and we are to know "what is the HOPE OF HIS CALLING'': “The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints” [Eph. l:18]Again, one component making these blessings diametrically apposed to that of Israel and the church of God during the Acts, is that this calling places "the Church which is His Body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all'' at the very seat where Christ sitteth, far above all. The hope is in the holy of holies. This calling was never before revealed, and is not on the earth, as the hope and calling and promise to Israel and those graphed in un naturually are only "in the earth", as revealed in the OT. I am pointing out that God has made several dividing lines in His letter to us, the Bible. He had chosen to use several specific words to point out where He makes these lines of division. The word "calling" is one of the important ones.This is why when we look up this word, and apply it to the people who God is addressing, thru the vessels who penned them, we see huge differences in their hope and promise from God.The church which is His body, is the only company of called out ones in the entire Bible who have their hope far above all, where Christ sits, at the right hand of God.This has not even ever been offered to an angel, and yet, we are offered that sure hope of our high calling.THE PROBLEM WAS that many went out from them - the apostles - but they were not of them. It is foretold in Genesis 3:15, and Christ put the capstone on the situation in John 8:44 if memory serves, as well by saying the scribes and pharisees sit in Moses' seat, meaning the seat of authority.Ezra documents it for us as well, reporting that there were none of the house of Levi. That was God's wake up call, for him to count the people. And what did he find? That the priests and scribes were all of the lineage of Cain, and none of the lineage of the true priests, the Levitical priest of Levi.The result was not so much unbelief, in fact they did believe, which is why they had to do something about Christ, and the subsequent reoffer of the kingdom. But that only lasted long enough for everone to hear and acknowledge the offer, make their choice; which took about 35 years.At that point, God told them they were unusable, removed the offer, & "sent" the word to all nations, and the miracles and everything that accompanied them ceased. Paul wasnt even able to heal his own son. All the apostles sent to the lost of Israel disappeared from God's word to us.The next thing to happen, was for God to give further revelation to Paul, the sent one for the nations, and Paul revealed to us, the Mystery of the new dispensation, and a new calling with a new hope.Israel according to the flesh was a called out nation from among other nations, and is referred to as Jehovah's WIFE that is now cast off, but will be reunited in the Millennium. (Hos. 2: 19-20; 3:3-5). Each of three spheres of blessing is associated with a peculiar destiny. WIFE_______________BRIDE _______________ONE NEW MANthe earth_______New Jerusalem________Far Above All Heavens
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Thank you very much for the explanation I now understand what you are saying
     
  20. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    I m sorry about my poor communication skills, but am so glad you can see what Paul is talking about. I am clapping clapping clappingIt is truly boggling that these things are so rarely discussed, and a shame that they are mixed together as if God has made no differences, but now that you can see something of it, there are amazing revelations to discover, and the apostle uses language unlike any before it, before Acts 28:28 that is to say.I believe that this is the reason the church revealed after Acts was given the instruction to rightly divide the word of truth.I recommend going back and reading an old thread of mine which got no resp onces. It is called try, or test, the things that are different. There is much good and sound doctrine there ~http://www.christianityboard.com/try-test-...rent-t2311.html
     
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