It all fits within Ezekiel 39

[grafted branch]

Take a look at this one though.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

The Jew don't currently believe that Jesus is the LORD their God. But going forward from the day that Jesus returns, they will change.

Right, but the counter argument will be that this is referring to spiritual Israel. I don’t want to go into detail on this because it’s been gone over probably several thousand times elsewhere on the forum.

In Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20 the Armageddon event, which the kings of the earth, take council (Revelation 16:14-16) and gather their armies to make war on Jesus, results in those armies being destroyed in Revelation 19:21 and Zechariah 14:12.

Israel went into exile for their wickedness. They were restored in approximately 537 BC. The book of Esther took place about 60 years later. The exile and suffering of the Jews was known to the heathen’s, they saw God displaying His wrath and justice in the exile of the Jews by the Babylonians in the sixth century BC.

Ezekiel 38-39 describes how God displayed His power, mercy, grace, and love in the deliverance of the Jews from the Persians in the fifth century BC. This is the glory of God that was set among the heathen. This timeframe for Ezekiel 39 agrees with the chapter ending with a promise concerning the New Covenant.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay, in Matthew 24:15-30 is about the great tribulation, and Jesus's return.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand : )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Then we have Jesus's return in Matthew 24:30

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So the great tribulation and Jesus's return are both close. It all fits within Ezekiel 39.

So Douggg, how accurate is your timeline of the end time events. For me all that you present is confusion because none of what you claim fits God's timeline for the End Times.

Goodbye.

 

[Douggg]

So Douggg, how accurate is your timeline of the end time events. For me all that you present is confusion because none of what you claim fits God's timeline for the End Times.

Goodbye.

Hi Jay, Here is my timeline for the events following Gog/Magog until Jesus's return. The timeline shows the period of the great tribulation. Everything fits within the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

I would like to see your timeline of end times events, including Jesus return and the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Right, but the counter argument will be that this is referring to spiritual Israel. I don’t want to go into detail on this because it’s been gone over probably several thousand times elsewhere on the forum.




Israel went into exile for their wickedness. They were restored in approximately 537 BC. The book of Esther took place about 60 years later. The exile and suffering of the Jews was known to the heathen’s, they saw God displaying His wrath and justice in the exile of the Jews by the Babylonians in the sixth century BC.

Ezekiel 38-39 describes how God displayed His power, mercy, grace, and love in the deliverance of the Jews from the Persians in the fifth century BC. This is the glory of God that was set among the heathen. This timeframe for Ezekiel 39 agrees with the chapter ending with a promise concerning the New Covenant.

The Jews (Judaism) themselves don't believe that the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 has taken place yet, either.

 

[grafted branch]

The Jews (Judaism) themselves don't believe that the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 has taken place yet, either.

Well there’s a lot of things that line up with Ezekiel 38-39 being fulfilled in the book of Esther. If you do a search on this, as I did, you will see the multiple reasons to support this.
Maybe one of the reasons the Jews don’t believe the Gog/Magog event has occurred is because they also don’t recognize the new covenant.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay, Here is my timeline for the events following Gog/Magog until Jesus's return. The timeline shows the period of the great tribulation. Everything fits within the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

I would like to see your timeline of end times events, including Jesus return and the great tribulation.

Douggg, I find your timeline very confusing and very inaccurate.

Broadly my timeline begins around 250 BC when the trampling of God's Sanctuary and God's earthly hosts began and this trampling continued for 2,300 years where the completion of the Daniel 8:13-14 time period will end in around 20 years' time, after which, as Paul indicates in Romans 11:25b-26 all of Israel will be saved.

Another timeline is also found in Exodus 20:4-6 where God foretold that the Iniquities of the fathers would be visited upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth generations/ages. The third age began with the birth of Christ and the end of the fourth age will occur in around 20 years' time. at the end of the sixth age.

In Isaiah 24:18b-22 God gives us a window into what will happen in the lead up to Armageddon, which will happen in around 20 years time: -

Isaiah 24:17-22: -

17 Fear and the pit and the snare
Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be [d]caught in the snare;
For the windows from on high are open,
And the foundations of the earth are shaken.

19 The earth is violently broken,
The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel[e] to and fro like a drunkard,
And shall totter like a hut;
Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
And it will fall, and not rise again.

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the [f]pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

Now in Rev 20:1-3 we are told that the imprisonment in Isaiah 24:22 will last for 1,000 years and is the duration of a season.

After, the completion of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and the children's children, God will again hear Israel's cries.

Another passage that speaks of the Judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon and the sending of a request for Christs terms of peace for Israel can be found in Luke 14:31-32. it should be noted that in verse 34-35 there is a warning that if Israel has lost its saltiness that Israel would be discarded to the dung heap.

Another passage that speaks to God's judgement of the heavenly hosts can be found in Daniel 7:9-12, and after this time of judgement of the heavenly Hosts we are told that the Son of Man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him. Rev 20:4-6 also hints of the same event where Christ will rule with the Saint who had lost their heads for His sake in heaven.

In Luke 19:11-27 and Matthew 25:14-30 in the parable of the Minai and the talents, we learn that Satan before he goes away into the Bottomless pit after he was judged in heaven, gives money to His servants according to their abilities to interfere with God's plans to establish His everlasting Kingdom during the time of the kings of the last segment in the Daniel 2 statue prophecy.

Now, which Satan, the beast, the Little Horn and the judged kings of the earth are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, the people of the earth will enjoy peace and a great harvest of souls will occur.

After the 1,000 years has passed, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked to allow the kings of the earth, the beast, the little horn/the False Prophet and Satan to rise up out of the Bottomless pit to start the Great Tribulation.

The Great tribulation will see the Gog and Magog armies sweeping across the face of the earth to finally surround Jerusalem to herald in the Great tribulations in our distant future from our present time. Daniel 9:27 will come into play during this time.

This is just a thumbnail of how the events during the End Times will unfold.

It produces a very different picture to the one that you have, and it is all based on scripture.

Now it does take time for people to comprehend the truth of the above.

Shalom

 

[Douggg]

Well there’s a lot of things that line up with Ezekiel 38-39 being fulfilled in the book of Esther. If you do a search on this, as I did, you will see the multiple reasons to support this.
Maybe one of the reasons the Jews don’t believe the Gog/Magog event has occurred is because they also don’t recognize the new covenant.

I don't see anything in Esther relating to the Gog/Magog event.

From the Jewish Chabad.org site, is the below summary of the book of Ester.

The book is divided into 10 chapters. Here is a quick summary of their contents:

Chapter 1: King Achashveirosh of Persia holds two giant parties, and he has his wife, Vashti, executed.

Chapter 2: A search for a new queen results in Esther (cousin of the Torah sage Mordechai) being taken to the palace, but not sharing her Jewish identity. Together, they save the king from two plotting palace staffers.

Chapter 3: The evil advisor, Haman, convinces the king to have all the Jews in his empire executed on one day: Adar 13.

Chapter 4: Mordechai prevails upon Esther to intercede before the king.

Chapter 5: Esther invites the king and Haman to a private party, at which she invites both of them to a second party. Haman decides to erect gallows on which to hang Mordechai, who bravely refuses to bow to him.

Chapter 6: The king is unable to sleep, and on that night is reminded that he never rewarded Mordechai for saving his life. He asks Haman to parade Mordechai around town, dressed in royal clothing, riding the king’s horse.

Chapter 7: At the second party, Esther tells the king that Haman wishes to exterminate her people. Enraged, the king has Haman strung up on the gallows he had prepared.

Chapter 8: Orders are issued in the king’s name, authorizing the Jews to defend themselves and kill those who wish to kill them.

Chapter 9: The Jews defend themselves on Adar 13 and rest on Adar 14. In the capital of Shushan, an extra day is needed, and the rest is delayed to Adar 15. Esther has the events recorded, and scrolls are sent to Jews all over.

(At the point in the story that describes how the 10 sons of Haman were killed and hanged on the gallows, the words in the Megillah are actually stacked in a column, using a format seen in just a few places in scripture.)

Chapter 10: The events are included in the records of Persia and Media, and Mordechai is a wildly popular viceroy.

 

[Douggg]

Now, which Satan, the beast, the Little Horn and the judged kings of the earth are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, the people of the earth will enjoy peace and a great harvest of souls will occur.

After the 1,000 years has passed, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked to allow the kings of the earth, the beast, the little horn/the False Prophet and Satan to rise up out of the Bottomless pit to start the Great Tribulation.

Hi Jay, at Jesus's return in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire - not the bottomless pit.

The only one cast into the bottomless pit at Jesus's return is Satan.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Douggg]

In Isaiah 24:18b-22 God gives us a window into what will happen in the lead up to Armageddon, which will happen in around 20 years time: -

The Armageddon event, 20 years time from when? from right now ?

Please list these events in correct sequence order. First to last.

the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog event
the great tribulation
the Armageddon event
the Second Coming of Jesus
the 1000 year millennium
Satan's short period to once again deceive the nations

 

[grafted branch]

I don't see anything in Esther relating to the Gog/Magog event.

From the Jewish Chabad.org site, is the below summary of the book of Ester.

The book is divided into 10 chapters. Here is a quick summary of their contents:

I don’t want to post an entire commentary on how Ezekiel 38-39 fits with Esther but we can look at one section at a time if you want. We can start with Ezekiel 38:1-7, I’ll summarize the various things I’ve found on the web.

Ezekiel 38:1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lords says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. 7 Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them.


Ezekiel references Gog as the “chief prince”. I already pointed out Haman being a chief prince (Esther 3:1-2) and how he can be considered Gog in another post.

The word translated “chief” is the Hebrew word Rosh (רֹאשׁ), some people argue that “Rosh” is a reference to “Russia” because these words sound alike.

There are several problems with this but one of the most glaring issues is that the number seven is seen repeatedly in Ezekiel 38-39. Meshek, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah. That’s seven, if Rosh was also a nation (rather than an adjective modifying the noun prince), it would insert an eighth nation into the text and run completely counter to Ezekiel’s literary style.

Here is a list of all the sevens. The weapons left behind are burned for seven years (39:9). It takes seven months to bury the dead (39:12, 14). Seven different types of carcasses for the wild animals to feast on after the battle (39:18). Seven judgments against Gog (38:21–22). Seven terms are used to describe the enemy’s war gear, this happened twice (38:4–5; 39:9). Seven times “thus saith the Lord” is used (38:3, 14, 10, 17; 39:1, 17, 25). Seven ways the nations acknowledge Gods greatness (38:13, 23; 39:6, twice in 7, 23, 28).

The next thing to consider is that Ezekiel is describing an ancient battle that was fought with ancient weapons.

Gog’s army would attack on horseback, carrying swords, war clubs and spears. In verses 5-7, Ezekiel identifies Gog’s allies as Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, Beth-Togarmah. The nations that fought with these literal ancient weapons were literal ancient nations. There is no need to extrapolate this into modern weapons or nations.

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from Persia, Cush, and from the remote parts of the north, these are all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther 8:9 we know that the Persian Empire extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces in all. Cush and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1, 3 and Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shield and helmet. The other nations were established in the geographical boundaries from India to Cush in the 127 provinces over which Xerxes ruled (Esther 1:1). What this means is that the Jews were attacked by people from within all the provinces of Persia and this is recorded in both Esther and Ezekiel.

During Ezekiel’s time Babylon was the major power yet he prophesied about a future Persian empire. If his prophecy was meant for thousands of years in future it would’ve made sense to describe things using the current empire not the next empire that would no longer be in existence thousands of years later when the prophecy is fulfilled.

If we conclude that Ezekiel’s prophecy finds its fulfillment during the time of Esther then “it all fits within Ezekiel 39” (the title of your thread). The fact that Ezekiel lists only nations that were already in the province of Persia, when he wrote from Babylon, means he’s pointing his readers to the attack that would come from the next empire to rise to power, Persia. And that’s exactly what happens in Esther.

 

[Davidpt]

The Jews (Judaism) themselves don't believe that the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 has taken place yet, either.

A point I was going to raise myself. If anyone should know the Jews history, it would be the Jews themselves. Yet, not one single Jew I have conversed with in the past thinks this war was fulfilled ages ago. They all said it is a future war that hasn't happened yet.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

If Jews(Judiasm) think that the above occurs in the 21st century eventually, obviously then, they are not taking these weapons mentioned, in the literal sense. No one would be if they think this is something involving the 21st century.

Why then are some Christians insisting this war was fulfilled ages ago in ancient times when there is apparently not one single Jew on this planet, past or present, that knows anything about this war having been fulfilled in the past? How can these same Christians have us believe they know the Jews history better than the Jews themselves? After all, it is not Jews themselves insisting this war was fulfilled in ancient times, it is Christians that are insisting this. Not all Christians are insisting this, of course. Yet, some are. A cpl of them perticipating in this thread even.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't see anything in Esther relating to the Gog/Magog event.

And there is a real good reason for that. And that is because there are numerous things recorded in Ezekiel 38 and 39 that simply can't fit what is recorded in Esther. Therefore, a big waste of time entertaining the idea that somehow the book of Esther explains Ezekiel 38 and 39.

 

[Davidpt]

I don’t want to post an entire commentary on how Ezekiel 38-39 fits with Esther but we can look at one section at a time if you want. We can start with Ezekiel 38:1-7, I’ll summarize the various things I’ve found on the web.

Ezekiel 38:1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lords says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. 7 Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them.


Ezekiel references Gog as the “chief prince”. I already pointed out Haman being a chief prince (Esther 3:1-2) and how he can be considered Gog in another post.

The word translated “chief” is the Hebrew word Rosh (רֹאשׁ), some people argue that “Rosh” is a reference to “Russia” because these words sound alike.

There are several problems with this but one of the most glaring issues is that the number seven is seen repeatedly in Ezekiel 38-39. Meshek, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah. That’s seven, if Rosh was also a nation (rather than an adjective modifying the noun prince), it would insert an eighth nation into the text and run completely counter to Ezekiel’s literary style.

Here is a list of all the sevens. The weapons left behind are burned for seven years (39:9). It takes seven months to bury the dead (39:12, 14). Seven different types of carcasses for the wild animals to feast on after the battle (39:18). Seven judgments against Gog (38:21–22). Seven terms are used to describe the enemy’s war gear, this happened twice (38:4–5; 39:9). Seven times “thus saith the Lord” is used (38:3, 14, 10, 17; 39:1, 17, 25). Seven ways the nations acknowledge Gods greatness (38:13, 23; 39:6, twice in 7, 23, 28).

The next thing to consider is that Ezekiel is describing an ancient battle that was fought with ancient weapons.

Gog’s army would attack on horseback, carrying swords, war clubs and spears. In verses 5-7, Ezekiel identifies Gog’s allies as Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, Beth-Togarmah. The nations that fought with these literal ancient weapons were literal ancient nations. There is no need to extrapolate this into modern weapons or nations.

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from Persia, Cush, and from the remote parts of the north, these are all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther 8:9 we know that the Persian Empire extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces in all. Cush and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1, 3 and Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shield and helmet. The other nations were established in the geographical boundaries from India to Cush in the 127 provinces over which Xerxes ruled (Esther 1:1). What this means is that the Jews were attacked by people from within all the provinces of Persia and this is recorded in both Esther and Ezekiel.

During Ezekiel’s time Babylon was the major power yet he prophesied about a future Persian empire. If his prophecy was meant for thousands of years in future it would’ve made sense to describe things using the current empire not the next empire that would no longer be in existence thousands of years later when the prophecy is fulfilled.

If we conclude that Ezekiel’s prophecy finds its fulfillment during the time of Esther then “it all fits within Ezekiel 39” (the title of your thread). The fact that Ezekiel lists only nations that were already in the province of Persia, when he wrote from Babylon, means he’s pointing his readers to the attack that would come from the next empire to rise to power, Persia. And that’s exactly what happens in Esther.

The following is a problem for anyone insisting Ezekiel 38-39 was fulfilled ages ago. And it's equally a problem for Premil when you think about it.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.


This verse has Gog and his multitude dead and buried.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


While this verse has Gog and his multitude still alive and well whenever this is meaning. Obviously, the book of Ezekiel was written before the book of Revelation was. Therefore, if the Revelation 20 account has them still alive and well at the time, and that the Ezekiel 38-39 account has them all dead and buried at the time, it does not seem reasonable, even per Premil when you think about it, to insist Ezekiel 38-39 is fulfilled before Revelation 20:7-9 is fulfilled. If it is true that Ezekiel 39:11 precedes, rather than equals the same event, how does one explain that Gog and his multitude can still exist in the future if Ezekiel 39:11 already happened to them in the past?

Things like this, though I am Premil, make me really question why is it that I am Premil when there appears to be a contradiction involving Ezekiel 39:11 vs. Revelation 207-9 if these accounts are involving different events rather than the same event? And the same per any view that insists Ezekiel 38-39 was already fulfilled in the past. You have to then make that square with what Revelation 20:7-9 records, that it has Gog and his multitude still alive and well, not already dead and buried instead,

 

[Zao is life]

God is sovereign and what He does we cannot stop, so how and when the prophecy is fulfilled will probably prove us ALL wrong.

What the nations are doing to Israel today obviously has the same spirit behind Gog of Magog. It includes the supporters of the enemies of Israel and those who hate the Jews who are putting evil for good and good for evil, darkness for light and light for darkness, and it includes in this case putting lies for truth and truth for lies in a BIG way, and it includes big Western media outlets.

I do not follow the theology that says that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are Israel or part of it, but I do know that God loves them for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), and to me it's very clear how this war against Israel and Jews world-wide, which is being fought against them with the stated intent of eradicating their state from the map and denying and removing their ancient link to the land, is dividing those who love lies from those who love truth, and those who put evil for good from those who will not, regardless of the covenant status of unbelieving Jews.

I saw a video not so long ago where the people were saying the origin of Gog of Magog was actually in present-day Turkey, not Russia. Well anyway they're all part of this alliance which actually if you listen carefully, is as much against the USA as it is against Israel, and as determined through the BRICS alliance (which is now 10 nations) to destroy the USA as it is to destroy Israel.

A lot of people are finding themselves on the wrong side of - in this case - apocalyptic - history, IMO.​

 

[Davidpt]

God is sovereign and what He does we cannot stop, so how and when the prophecy is fulfilled will probably prove us ALL wrong.

What the nations are doing to Israel today obviously has the same spirit behind Gog of Magog. It includes the supporters of the enemies of Israel and those who hate the Jews who are putting evil for good and good for evil, darkness for light and light for darkness, and it includes in this case putting lies for truth and truth for lies in a BIG way, and it includes big Western media outlets.

I do not follow the theology that says that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are Israel or part of it, but I do know that God loves them for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), and to me it's very clear how this war against Israel and Jews world-wide, which is being fought against them with the stated intent of eradicating their state from the map and denying and removing their ancient link to the land, is dividing those who love lies from those who love truth, and those who put evil for good from those who will not, regardless of the covenant status of unbelieving Jews.

I saw a video not so long ago where the people were saying the origin of Gog of Magog was actually in present-day Turkey, not Russia. Well anyway they're all part of this alliance which actually if you listen carefully, is as much against the USA as it is against Israel, and as determined through the BRICS alliance (which is now 10 nations) to destroy the USA as it is to destroy Israel.

A lot of people are finding themselves on the wrong side of - in this case - apocalyptic - history, IMO.​

Hopefully no one takes this to mean that I'm a Dispy, but what appears to explain Ezekiel 38-39 to me is 70 AD followed by them being exiled from the land then returning to the land around the middle of the 20th century. We have to keep in mind that the house of Israel meant in these 2 chapters, that God is hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment upon Gog and his multitude. The house of Israel can't be meaning the NT church since there is no logic to God hiding His face from the NT church. Therefore, this appears to fit the Jews that started returning back to their land last century, thus someone that God is still hiding His face from, the fact unbelieving Jews, not believing Jews, are in control of the nation they started up again last century.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.(a judgment that hasn't happened yet)
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.(meaning once God executes this judgment meant per verse 21. Thus He is no longer hiding His face from them at this point)
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.(70 AD seems to maybe explain when this initially began. Keeping in mind that 70 AD didn't wipe out every unbelieving Jew on the planet)
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.


How could God have already quit hiding His face from them before He even executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude?

 

[Zao is life]

Hopefully no one takes this to mean that I'm a Dispy, but what appears to explain Ezekiel 38-39 to me is 70 AD followed by them being exiled from the land then returning to the land around the middle of the 20th century. We have to keep in mind that the house of Israel meant in these 2 chapters, that God is hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment upon Gog and His multitude. The house of Israel can't be meaning the NT church since there is no logic to God hiding His face from the NT church. Therefore, this appears to fit the Jews that started returning back to their land last century, thus someone that God is still hiding His face from, the fact unbelieving Jews, not believing Jews, are in control of the nation they started up again last century.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.(a judgment that hasn't happened yet)
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.(meaning once God executes this judgment meant per verse 21)
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.(70 AD seems to maybe explain when this initially began. Keeping in mind that 70 AD didn't wipe out every unbelieving Jew on the planet)
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.


How could God have already quit hiding His face from them before He even executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude?

I know, but there is a great deal more in that prophecy than what is being extracted from it. God is talking to both "the house of Israel" and to "the house of Judah" in the above prophecy, and promising the rejoining of the two kingdoms into one nation in that prophecy at the time of their restoration to God and to the land of their fathers.

The house of Israel being spoken to by God in the prophecy was exiled in 725 BC and scattered among the nations.

Their descendants intermarried with Gentiles in the nations and they have remained exiled ever since, and so there is a lot of talk about "the lost 10 tribes" - but they are untraceable, because their descendants intermarried with Gentiles in the nations.

Yet Paul included Gentiles with the Jews who believe in Jesus when he quoted Hosea speaking of the same thing:

Hosea 1:9-10 is talking about the House of Israel - whom God is talking to in the prophecy in Ezekiel that you are quoting.

Verse 11 talks about both the house of Israel AND the house of Judah:

Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head,

and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

(That last sentence is referring back to the part of the prophecy in Hosea that the 10 tribes of the house of Israel would be judged in the valley of Jezreel and exiled):

Hosea 1
5 And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

Ezekiel 37:16-28 is talking about the same reunification, and Paul says the following when quoting Hosea:

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he says also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, (o. logos) and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work (o. logos) will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ezekiel is making a very clear distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and saying very clearly in Ezekiel 37:15-28 that the two nations will be joined into one in the day God restores them to the land - and the first part of Ezekiel 37 IMO cannot be spiritualized and is indeed talking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ when Christ returns:

Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I the LORD have spoken and have done it, says the LORD.

The only other person in these forums who recognizes that Ezekiel chapters 35-39 is talking about a whole lot more than just "the Jews" is @Keraz - but he only has God giving the New Covenant to ANYONE at this time (when this prophecy is fulfilled), so he does not believe that the New Covenant is already the covenant we as Christians have with God - yet.

Anyway, the fact that Ezekiel is talking in some parts to "the house of Israel" and in other parts to "the house of Judah" shows us that this prophecy is not talking only to the people who today are commonly called "the Jews". It's more than only Jews. It's Jews + Gentiles in Christ.

This is a mystery few understand, IMO: "The house of Israel" = "the fullness of the Gentiles".

Nevertheless those with the spiritual discernment they claim to have should be able to recognize the spirit behind what is happening today with the war of the nations against modern-day Israel as well as the evil hatred of Jews world-wide, because it's the same Satanic spirit behind Gog of Magog - no matter when or how the prophecy is fulfilled, or which "house of Israel" is being referred to.

- and those who hate Israel and the Jews have the USA and basically all Caucasian Americans included and linked to, and part of, their hatred of Israel and its Jews (which they have in their own hearts and is NOT provoked).

IMO for the USA to distance itself from the Israeli government at this time and any actions taken by the Israeli government at this time will not help because it is and will only be seen by of the enemies of Israel and of the USA as appeasement through weakness and feebleness, because those same enemies of Israel just so happen to be the enemies of the USA too - but not by the choice of the USA - by the choice of those who hate Israel and the USA.

It's Satanic. It's the same spirit behind what we read about in Ezekiel and the Gog-Magog nations rebelling against God and against His Christ and against His people and their right to inhabit the land of their fathers that GOD gave to them.

Side-note: BRICS according to Wikipedia is only 9 nations strong. So I was mistaken when I said 10. It seems Saudi Arabia has not joined yet. Argentina's President pulled Argentina out of it also - just in time - they got a new President who is pro-Israel.

It will be 10 nations if Saudi Arabia has joined. I'm not sure of its status. But the main enemies of the USA are all there: China, Iran, Russia. And you may as well include Turkey in the list of enemies of the USA, despite its NATO membership.

The enemies of the Jews and of Israel just happen to also be the enemies of Christ and his sheep, and of Christianity. They have made themselves the enemies of both groups - and they just happen to have chosen to make themselves the enemies of the USA also.

This is most certainly a Gog-Magog spirit that has taken over the world at this time.

 

[grafted branch]

The following is a problem for anyone insisting Ezekiel 38-39 was fulfilled ages ago. And it's equally a problem for Premil when you think about it.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.


This verse has Gog and his multitude dead and buried.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


While this verse has Gog and his multitude still alive and well whenever this is meaning. Obviously, the book of Ezekiel was written before the book of Revelation was. Therefore, if the Revelation 20 account has them still alive and well at the time, and that the Ezekiel 38-39 account has them all dead and buried at the time, it does not seem reasonable, even per Premil when you think about it, to insist Ezekiel 38-39 is fulfilled before Revelation 20:7-9 is fulfilled. If it is true that Ezekiel 39:11 precedes, rather than equals the same event, how does one explain that Gog and his multitude can still exist in the future if Ezekiel 39:11 already happened to them in the past?

Things like this, though I am Premil, make me really question why is it that I am Premil when there appears to be a contradiction involving Ezekiel 39:11 vs. Revelation 207-9 if these accounts are involving different events rather than the same event? And the same per any view that insists Ezekiel 38-39 was already fulfilled in the past. You have to then make that square with what Revelation 20:7-9 records, that it has Gog and his multitude still alive and well, not already dead and buried instead,

That’s a great question, how can Gog/Magog be fulfilled if it also occurs after the millennium. I think everyone has the millennium occurring after the book of Esther takes place. The physical Gog/Magog event could be a type for a spiritual Gog/Magog event.

The Gog/Magog situation in Esther goes back to when Saul was king, and maybe this shows how Gog/Magog repeats.



Here is some information on that.

Esther tells us that Haman was an “Agagite” or “Gogite” in the LXX, in Esther 3:1 and 9:24. This means Haman was a descendants of Agag the king of the Amalekites, whom Saul was supposed to kill back in 1 Samuel 15:2-3. But he doesn’t do it, and because of his failure, God regrets that He made Saul king in 1 Samuel 15:11. Samuel finished the job of slaying Agag in 1 Samuel 15:32-33.

Ok, Haman as an Agagite was part of the royal bloodline of Israel’s enemy the Amalekites. And Saul, who was supposed to kill Agag, was a son of Kish, a Benjamite (1 Samuel 9:1-2). When we come to the book of Esther we encounter Mordecai who is introduced as a son of Kish, a Benjamite (Esther 2:5).

The events between Saul and Agag in 1 Samuel 15 are repeated in Esther between Mordecai and Haman. This time however the Amalekites are destroyed and their storyline ends. This is predicted in Numbers 24:20 Then Balaam saw Amalek and spoke his message: “Amalek was first among the nations, but their end will be utter destruction.”

 

[Davidpt]

That’s a great question, how can Gog/Magog be fulfilled if it also occurs after the millennium. I think everyone has the millennium occurring after the book of Esther takes place. The physical Gog/Magog event could be a type for a spiritual Gog/Magog event.

The Gog/Magog situation in Esther goes back to when Saul was king, and maybe this shows how Gog/Magog repeats.



Here is some information on that.

Esther tells us that Haman was an “Agagite” or “Gogite” in the LXX, in Esther 3:1 and 9:24. This means Haman was a descendants of Agag the king of the Amalekites, whom Saul was supposed to kill back in 1 Samuel 15:2-3. But he doesn’t do it, and because of his failure, God regrets that He made Saul king in 1 Samuel 15:11. Samuel finished the job of slaying Agag in 1 Samuel 15:32-33.

Ok, Haman as an Agagite was part of the royal bloodline of Israel’s enemy the Amalekites. And Saul, who was supposed to kill Agag, was a son of Kish, a Benjamite (1 Samuel 9:1-2). When we come to the book of Esther we encounter Mordecai who is introduced as a son of Kish, a Benjamite (Esther 2:5).

The events between Saul and Agag in 1 Samuel 15 are repeated in Esther between Mordecai and Haman. This time however the Amalekites are destroyed and their storyline ends. This is predicted in Numbers 24:20 Then Balaam saw Amalek and spoke his message: “Amalek was first among the nations, but their end will be utter destruction.”

There might be a way around this even if assuming Premil.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

If this occurs before the millenium begins, and the following occurs after the millennium ends....

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Maybe this in verse 5 below explains how Gog and his multitude can still exist in the future if Ezekiel 39:11 already happened to them in the past.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(Revelation 20:5)

Something to ponder I guess.

 

[grafted branch]

There might be a way around this even if assuming Premil.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

If this occurs before the millenium begins, and the following occurs after the millennium ends....

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Maybe this in verse 5 below explains how Gog and his multitude can still exist in the future if Ezekiel 39:11 already happened to them in the past.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(Revelation 20:5)

Something to ponder I guess.

I thought about that but I can’t come to any solid conclusion on it. I’m still thinking about the Gog/Magog event after the millennium and the dead living during Satans little season, it is interesting.

 

[Davidpt]

I know, but there is a great deal more in that prophecy than what is being extracted from it. God is talking to both "the house of Israel" and to "the house of Judah" in the above prophecy, and promising the rejoining of the two kingdoms into one nation in that prophecy at the time of their restoration to God and to the land of their fathers.

The house of Israel being spoken to by God in the prophecy was exiled in 725 BC and scattered among the nations.

Their descendants intermarried with Gentiles in the nations and they have remained exiled ever since, and so there is a lot of talk about "the lost 10 tribes" - but they are untraceable, because their descendants intermarried with Gentiles in the nations.

Yet Paul included Gentiles with the Jews who believe in Jesus when he quoted Hosea speaking of the same thing:

Hosea 1:9-10 is talking about the House of Israel - whom God is talking to in the prophecy in Ezekiel that you are quoting.

Verse 11 talks about both the house of Israel AND the house of Judah:

Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head,

and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

(That last sentence is referring back to the part of the prophecy in Hosea that the 10 tribes of the house of Israel would be judged in the valley of Jezreel and exiled):

Hosea 1
5 And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

Ezekiel 37:16-28 is talking about the same reunification, and Paul says the following when quoting Hosea:

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he says also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, (o. logos) and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work (o. logos) will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ezekiel is making a very clear distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and saying very clearly in Ezekiel 37:15-28 that the two nations will be joined into one in the day God restores them to the land - and the first part of Ezekiel 37 IMO cannot be spiritualized and is indeed talking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ when Christ returns:

Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I the LORD have spoken and have done it, says the LORD.

The only other person in these forums who recognizes that Ezekiel chapters 35-39 is talking about a whole lot more than just "the Jews" is @Keraz - but he only has God giving the New Covenant to ANYONE at this time (when this prophecy is fulfilled), so he does not believe that the New Covenant is already the covenant we as Christians have with God - yet.

Anyway, the fact that Ezekiel is talking in some parts to "the house of Israel" and in other parts to "the house of Judah" shows us that this prophecy is not talking only to the people who today are commonly called "the Jews". It's more than only Jews. It's Jews + Gentiles in Christ.

This is a mystery few understand, IMO: "The house of Israel" = "the fullness of the Gentiles".

Nevertheless those with the spiritual discernment they claim to have should be able to recognize the spirit behind what is happening today with the war of the nations against modern-day Israel as well as the evil hatred of Jews world-wide, because it's the same Satanic spirit behind Gog of Magog - no matter when or how the prophecy is fulfilled, or which "house of Israel" is being referred to.

- and those who hate Israel and the Jews have the USA and basically all Caucasian Americans included and linked to, and part of, their hatred of Israel and its Jews (which they have in their own hearts and is NOT provoked).

IMO for the USA to distance itself from the Israeli government at this time and any actions taken by the Israeli government at this time will not help because it is and will only be seen by of the enemies of Israel and of the USA as appeasement through weakness and feebleness, because those same enemies of Israel just so happen to be the enemies of the USA too - but not by the choice of the USA - by the choice of those who hate Israel and the USA.

It's Satanic. It's the same spirit behind what we read about in Ezekiel and the Gog-Magog nations rebelling against God and against His Christ and against His people and their right to inhabit the land of their fathers that GOD gave to them.

Side-note: BRICS according to Wikipedia is only 9 nations strong. So I was mistaken when I said 10. It seems Saudi Arabia has not joined yet. Argentina's President pulled Argentina out of it also - just in time - they got a new President who is pro-Israel.

It will be 10 nations if Saudi Arabia has joined. I'm not sure of its status. But the main enemies of the USA are all there: China, Iran, Russia. And you may as well include Turkey in the list of enemies of the USA, despite its NATO membership.

The enemies of the Jews and of Israel just happen to also be the enemies of Christ and his sheep, and of Christianity. They have made themselves the enemies of both groups - and they just happen to have chosen to make themselves the enemies of the USA also.

This is most certainly a Gog-Magog spirit that has taken over the world at this time.

Much of what you posted in this post I am somewhat on the same page with you for the most part. In particular what you posted concerning Ezekiel 37. But even so, in my mind, unless I'm just reading things entirely wrong in Ezekiel 38-39, the house of Israel meant in those 2 chapters, God is hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment against Gog and his multitude. In my mind then means He is still hiding His face from the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 38-39, as we speak, the fact that judgment is still future.