It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[Marymog]

I also have never found any. It may not have seemed important to them, who can know?

As far as raising Mary to a high ideal: I'm not too happy with the church's elevation of Mary to ALMOST a co-redemptrix, and at this rate, she might actually be named with this title one day. I know that she suffered at that cross, but she was not ON the cross. That is reserved for Jesus only. He is the ONLY mediator between man and God, which NOW the CC does teach, but what is to become of priests then? We'll see.
1 Timothy 2:5

(I was Always taught that the priest is a mediator. They will, of course, Always have confession and Mass)

P.S. I do think that Mary was very important to God's salvation economy.
I love her and respect her and I find the denegration of Mary to be very unpalitable.

Dear GG,

Since you believe that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God I will never ask you to pray for me and we need to throw out the four verses before 1 Timothy 2:5. That is unless we have a different interpretation of mediator? (a go between; one that mediates between two parties)

I agree with scripture that Jesus is the ONLY mediator we need. He is sufficient all by himself, however, the fullness of scripture reveals that we can mediate also: 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

A priest can forgive sins just like Jesus gave man authority to do in John 20:23.

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

We all believe we are the true mediators of God...
Only God knows who truly is.

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, Himself human,

and "mediator" is by definition not "dictator" i believe is the difference between an actual mediator and the RCC

 

[bbyrd009]

A priest can forgive sins just like Jesus gave man authority to do in John 20:23.

that is nowhere near "confess your sins, one to another" however, and priests also give penance, in fact isn't that really what they do? Does a priest give absolution in confession? Isn't penance an antithesis to absolution? If you do not do the penance, are you still absolved?

have you seen how a priest does not even fit the Scriptural definition of "a man?"

a priest has no business forgiving unrepented sin, and the mechanism of "forgive and you will be forgiven" is violated as well here.
Now i don't have to forgive to be forgiven any more, see

 

[BreadOfLife]

The problem with your line of reasoning is that you have not given adequate reason why the other verses are wrong.
All you are doing is claiming a contradiction in the Bible, and we know that is not true.

This is a ploy of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
When you show them a verse in the Bible that proves them wrong, they ignore what you said and instead show a verse that proves them right.

How does it feel to have your beliefs compared to a Jehovah's Witness?

I'm happy to say that I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.
However - you need to hold yourself to that SAME standard.

MY question was: "Can you tell me where the bible says that Mary had "other" children?"
YOUR response was to give me a list of verses - and NONE of them say that MARY had other children, do they?

YOU made a false claim here and I want YOU to substantiate it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I do believe the above is a great post.

I do, however, find that in some instances in the N.T. it's very clear that the word "brothers" means exactly that.

James is clearly stated to be a Brother of Jesus.
Josephus stated that Jesus had, if I remember correctly, as LEAST one Brother named James. Perhaps more.

As I've said I do respect the post above, but I don't see what difference it makes to my salvation if Jesus had brothers.

They might have been children that belonged to Joseph by a previous marriage?

Saying such a thing disqualifies everything in the Bible
The Bible does not state nor hint at any such thing
It is a ploy by catholics to justify their worship of Mary

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm happy to say that I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.
However - you need to hold yourself to that SAME standard.

MY question was: "Can you tell me where the bible says that Mary had "other" children?"
YOUR response was to give me a list of verses - and NONE of them say that MARY had other children, do they?

YOU made a false claim here and I want YOU to substantiate it.

Your claim is the same that Jehovah's Witnesses make about Jesus.
Think about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Saying such a thing disqualifies everything in the Bible
The Bible does not state nor hint at any such thing
It is a ploy by catholics to justify their worship of Mary

I do believe she needs to remain pure for their purposes.
Was she and Joseph not human?
What about Joseph?
Was he also pure?
Why was is it not necessary for HIM to be elevated?
When I was a little girl, I had the idea that Jesus was for the boys and Mary was for the girls. Maybe I wasn't so far off? Maybe believers back then needed this since they were not literate?

Really, I don't like to think about this too much.
It's better to concentrate on Jesus and His life.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do believe the above is a great post.

I do, however, find that in some instances in the N.T. it's very clear that the word "brothers" means exactly that.

James is clearly stated to be a Brother of Jesus.
Josephus stated that Jesus had, if I remember correctly, as LEAST one Brother named James. Perhaps more.

As I've said I do respect the post above, but I don't see what difference it makes to my salvation if Jesus had brothers.

They might have been children that belonged to Joseph by a previous marriage?

Can you produce the quote from Josephus that James was the uterine brother of Jesus?
You see, the problem here is that in the overwhelming number of times where we find the word for "brother" in the Bible - they do NOT mean uterine sibling - but something else. The Greek word, "Adelphos" can mean uterine brother, half-brother-step-brother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc.

In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28).
In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.

Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren," the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Another proof against the charge that our Blessed Mother had other children is in the account of the Crucifixion of Jesus. What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

Matt. 27:56 says, "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 tells us, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

A comparison of these accounts of the crucifixion shows the mother of James and Joseph (Joses) to be Mary, the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. She is obviously a relative of the Blessed Mother.

The Greek word for sister (Adelphe), which is used in these accounts, has a variety of uses including sister, sister-in-law, cousin, aunt, kinswoman, friend, fellow citizen, neighbor, etc. There is simply no verse in all of Scripture which states that Mary had other children but there is substantial evidence that the so-called “brethren of the Lord” were simply relatives and not uterine siblings.

It is important that Mary did not have other children because the Bible never says she did.
If you say that she did - then you are adding to Scripture.

 

[Helen]

ByGrace,

Would you please be so kind as to document the source of this information in Josephus?

Oz

Haha! You wish.....and me too. I read it years ago...and I have no idea where.
Written in black and white...so has to be true ...right? :) ;)
But, historians believe he was genuine....could be true...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your claim is the same that Jehovah's Witnesses make about Jesus.
Think about it.

Wrong.
JW's claim that Jesus is not God. I'm not making any such claim.

YOU are adding to Scripture when you say that Mary had other children.
The Bible NEVER makes this claim.

The Mormons and JW's also edit the Scriptures as YOU are doing . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Saying such a thing disqualifies everything in the Bible
The Bible does not state nor hint at any such thing
It is a ploy by catholics to justify their worship of Mary

Catholics don't "worship" Mary.
That's just another anti-Catholic lie that you've been weaned on.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Wrong.
JW's claim that Jesus is not God. I'm not making any such claim.

YOU are adding to Scripture when you say that Mary had other children.
The Bible NEVER makes this claim.

The Mormons and JW's also edit the Scriptures as YOU are doing . . .

John Ankerberg says:

[T]here is a big problem in [claiming that Jesus' brothers and sisters were actually cousins or other kinsmen]. The reason being that there was an exact term for cousin, anepsios, a very well known word in New Testament times. This word for cousin is not used in any of the passages [that refer] to Jesus' brothers or sisters. On the other hand, the word for cousin is used in Colossians 4:10 where Paul writes, "Aristarchus sends you his greetings as does Mark, the cousin (anepsios) of Barnabas." So the New Testament writers knew the exact word for cousin but didn't use it in referring to Jesus' brothers. In addition, the word for kinsmen (suggenes) occurs eleven times in the New Testament [such as in Luke 1:36 to identify Elizabeth as Mary's "relative"]. But it never appears in any of the passages describing the children of Mary and Joseph. So, if the writers of the New Testament really meant to say that the brothers of our Lord Jesus were merely cousins or kinsmen, it seems strange that they never used the correct words to do so, words they used in other passages to describe other people's cousins or kinsmen. Finally, the word for brother which is used in speaking about Jesus' brothers is the word adelphos, and for "sister" it is adelphe. Adelphos and adelphe can sometimes be used in a wider sense. But their primary meaning speaks of a relationship of shared parentage. Unless the context suggests otherwise -- and in none of these passages is that the case -- this must be the primary meaning of the word that is intended.[116]

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Catholics don't "worship" Mary.
That's just another anti-Catholic lie that you've been weaned on.

Catholics do worship Mary
I was one for 37 years
My family and my wife's family are all catholics
they do worship Mary and not Jesus

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you produce the quote from Josephus that James was the uterine brother of Jesus?
You see, the problem here is that in the overwhelming number of times where we find the word for "brother" in the Bible - they do NOT mean uterine sibling - but something else. The Greek word, "Adelphos" can mean uterine brother, half-brother-step-brother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc.

In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28).
In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.

Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren," the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Another proof against the charge that our Blessed Mother had other children is in the account of the Crucifixion of Jesus. What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

Matt. 27:56 says, "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 tells us, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

A comparison of these accounts of the crucifixion shows the mother of James and Joseph (Joses) to be Mary, the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. She is obviously a relative of the Blessed Mother.

The Greek word for sister (Adelphe), which is used in these accounts, has a variety of uses including sister, sister-in-law, cousin, aunt, kinswoman, friend, fellow citizen, neighbor, etc. There is simply no verse in all of Scripture which states that Mary had other children but there is substantial evidence that the so-called “brethren of the Lord” were simply relatives and not uterine siblings.

It is important that Mary did not have other children because the Bible never says she did.
If you say that she did - then you are adding to Scripture.

Maybe I'm adding...
Maybe you're subtracting?

Here is what Josephus said regarding James, the Brother of Jesus:


****************************************************

Josephus' reference to James the brother of Jesus

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the JewsBook 20, Chapter 9, 1[23] For Greek text see [3]

Source: Wikipedia

 

[BreadOfLife]

John Ankerberg says:

[T]here is a big problem in [claiming that Jesus' brothers and sisters were actually cousins or other kinsmen]. The reason being that there was an exact term for cousin, anepsios, a very well known word in New Testament times. This word for cousin is not used in any of the passages [that refer] to Jesus' brothers or sisters. On the other hand, the word for cousin is used in Colossians 4:10 where Paul writes, "Aristarchus sends you his greetings as does Mark, the cousin (anepsios) of Barnabas." So the New Testament writers knew the exact word for cousin but didn't use it in referring to Jesus' brothers. In addition, the word for kinsmen (suggenes) occurs eleven times in the New Testament [such as in Luke 1:36 to identify Elizabeth as Mary's "relative"]. But it never appears in any of the passages describing the children of Mary and Joseph. So, if the writers of the New Testament really meant to say that the brothers of our Lord Jesus were merely cousins or kinsmen, it seems strange that they never used the correct words to do so, words they used in other passages to describe other people's cousins or kinsmen. Finally, the word for brother which is used in speaking about Jesus' brothers is the word adelphos, and for "sister" it is adelphe. Adelphos and adelphe can sometimes be used in a wider sense. But their primary meaning speaks of a relationship of shared parentage. Unless the context suggests otherwise -- and in none of these passages is that the case -- this must be the primary meaning of the word that is intended.[116]

And John Ankerberg has a problem because in the overwhelming cases where we find the word "Adelphos" or one iof its variation in the New Testament - it is NOT used for uterine sibling. There are ALSO Greek words for "believer" and "neighbor" in Greek (pisteuo and plesion), so why are those words not used where "Adelphos(oi)" is used??

The Use of Brothers in the NT
a. Cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling: 41 12%
b. Cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling: 47 14%
c. Cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling: 256 74%

Total occurrences of "Adelphos" and Adelphe": 344 100%

A whopping 74% of the times we see "Adelphos" in the New Testament - it means something completely different from uterine brother.
What does John Ankerberg have to say about that??

 

[Marymog]

that is nowhere near "confess your sins, one to another" however, and priests also give penance, in fact isn't that really what they do? Does a priest give absolution in confession? Isn't penance an antithesis to absolution? If you do not do the penance, are you still absolved?

have you seen how a priest does not even fit the Scriptural definition of "a man?"

a priest has no business forgiving unrepented sin, and the mechanism of "forgive and you will be forgiven" is violated as well here.
Now i don't have to forgive to be forgiven any more, see

Dear bbyrd,

Confess your sins to one another does not negate "if you forgive mans sins they are forgiven". One is a confession, the other is forgiveness. Therefor I agree with your statement: "that is nowhere near confess your sins, one to another"........So exactly what is your point?

Yes, priest give penance. Just like a good parent or judge would do. Just like God does.

Yes, ONCE AGAIN, priest give absolution because Jesus said in John20:23 they could.

No, penance is not an antithesis to absolution. You can be absolved or forgiven for a wrong doing (intentionally breaking someone's window) but your penance is paying to have the window replaced or taking the time to replace it yourself.

Is one absolved it they don't do the penance? If they intentionally do not do the penance the I guess their confession was not really a heartfelt confession. If they just forget to do the penance then I would guess that Gods grace would be upon them. I guess they will find out when they die.

A priest does not fit the Scriptural definition of a man? Fascinating!

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Catholics do worship Mary
I was one for 37 years
My family and my wife's family are all catholics
they do worship Mary and not Jesus

And that is a big fat LIE.
Completely untrue and unsubstantiated.

My sister is also an ex-Catholic who made this claim in her church by writing an article about it.
I challenged her to prove it, and she couldn't - and neither can YOU because it's simply not true.

Look - if you hate the Catholic Church - be my guest.
However, if you have to resort to telling these kinds of lies to make your point - you should ask yourself, "WHY?".

 

[GodsGrace]

John Ankerberg says:

[T]here is a big problem in [claiming that Jesus' brothers and sisters were actually cousins or other kinsmen]. The reason being that there was an exact term for cousin, anepsios, a very well known word in New Testament times. This word for cousin is not used in any of the passages [that refer] to Jesus' brothers or sisters. On the other hand, the word for cousin is used in Colossians 4:10 where Paul writes, "Aristarchus sends you his greetings as does Mark, the cousin (anepsios) of Barnabas." So the New Testament writers knew the exact word for cousin but didn't use it in referring to Jesus' brothers. In addition, the word for kinsmen (suggenes) occurs eleven times in the New Testament [such as in Luke 1:36 to identify Elizabeth as Mary's "relative"]. But it never appears in any of the passages describing the children of Mary and Joseph. So, if the writers of the New Testament really meant to say that the brothers of our Lord Jesus were merely cousins or kinsmen, it seems strange that they never used the correct words to do so, words they used in other passages to describe other people's cousins or kinsmen. Finally, the word for brother which is used in speaking about Jesus' brothers is the word adelphos, and for "sister" it is adelphe. Adelphos and adelphe can sometimes be used in a wider sense. But their primary meaning speaks of a relationship of shared parentage. Unless the context suggests otherwise -- and in none of these passages is that the case -- this must be the primary meaning of the word that is intended.[116]

I also remember Learning that sometimes the word cousin/Brother is difficult to understand, but other times it's easy to understand.

I can't remember if I mentioned that there are some Catholic theologians that believe Jesus had brothers and it seems it also does not disturb them since they're still Catholic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maybe I'm adding...
Maybe you're subtracting?

Here is what Josephus said regarding James, the Brother of Jesus:

****************************************************

Josephus' reference to James the brother of Jesus

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the JewsBook 20, Chapter 9, 1[23] For Greek text see [3]

Source: Wikipedia

And Josephus wrote Antiquities in Koine Greek - the SAME language as the New Testament.
Which variation of "Adelphos" was he using when he referred to James??

 

[GodsGrace]

And that is a big fat LIE.
Completely untrue and unsubstantiated.

My sister is also an ex-Catholic who made this claim in her church by writing an article about it.
I challenged her to prove it, and she couldn't - and neither can YOU because it's simply not true.

Look - if you hate the Catholic Church - be my guest.
However, if you have to resort to telling these kinds of moronic lies to make your point - you should ask yourself, "WHY?".

Some persons mix worship with veneration.

It would have been nicer for you to explain this...

Mary can be venerated
but she cannot be worshipped.

This is what's taught by the Catholic Church.

P.S. I'd like to add that there is very little teaching in the CC and the members are not even taught this -- in fact, veneration of Mary is encouraged. Only those who teach there or are involved with the ministry in some way, know these teachings...