It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
LOL. Address the rebuttal to your false claims above instead of running and hiding.
You avoided my earlier rebuttal because it totally demolished your thesis. You then ran and started another thread. What are you scared of?
Of course "the bible doesn't outright say....'the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation'." That is because it is not there. You therefore argue from silence. It is a man-made Jesuit theory that is foisted on God's Book. There is nothing you can do about that apart from devise silly contradictory arguments that do not hold up to biblical scrutiny. And, contrary to what you argue, the Trinity is taught throughout the New Testament.
Normality right up until Jesus comes?
There is no space for your 7 year tribulation period and 2 future comings of Jesus. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.
Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”
We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”
The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.
I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?
If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?
Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.
White horse coming of Christ
Revelation is full of unique and obscure symbolism that is found nowhere else in the Bible. That is because apocalyptic language is highly figurative and it depicts spiritual realities in the past present or future. You claim to have 22 references to a third coming of Jesus, yet you have not been able to show us one that mentions a white horse. That totally negates your whole argument. That is pretty common in Pretrib. The gallows they build to hang Postrib on is what they normally end up hanging on.
You hung on your own gallows above by failing to show us any corroboration for your claim of biblical support from other scriptural texts for a 3rd white horse coming of Christ and the saints, even though you chided Postribbers for not having the same and claiming you had 22 examples. More noise, zero substance and sheer hypocrisy and duplicity.
Every Pretrib argument is self-defeating.
The wrath of God on the righteous?
Pretribbers argue that 7 year trib (or whatever length trib) equates to the wrath of God. So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God. There are obviously redeemed during the tribulation period, so, if the tribulation period is the wrath of God, you are saying that the wrath of God is upon the righteous. Really???
Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”
Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil.
The wrath of God is not something believers experience because they are under God’s blessing and protection. God preserves His people. The shepherd is invested in His sheep.
Where Pretribbers err majorly on this subject is when they automatically equate “wrath” with “tribulation” (and specifically their theory of a 7-year tribulation following a rapture of the Church). This is a glaring theological error. It is a faulty premise. If this was so then there are many contradictions in Scripture that conflict with this theory. Sadly, they construct a whole school of thought on this flawed foundation.
All through history the righteous have endured persecution, suffering, tribulation and martyrdom for the faith. So why do we need a rapture when things simply continue on the same – with maybe a bit more intensity? The tribulation you describe is more or less how things are today. Could they not correlate? In your reasoning: the tribulation = the wrath of God. What I am saying is this doesn't add up. There are countless saints in the tribulation so it couldn't be the wrath of God on all mankind. Why can't God simply preserve them through the tribulation?
God preserves His people in the midst of trial. Look at Israel in Egypt. Look at Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fire. Look at Daniel in the den, etc, etc. The wrath of God was never poured upon Isaiah or Jeremiah. I don't know where you got that from. I note that you didn't try to back up these claims with Scripture. The righteous have never been the recipients of wrath but rather blessing. What type of God do you think He is? Being protected when judgment is poured out on a land is different. God has always preserved His people. Even when the plagues hit Israel God preserved them. It is the same today, God preserves the elect in the midst of tribulation, however He never pours wrath upon them.
And? What does that prove? The word "Church" ecclesia is also not found anywhere in the New Testament books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude, yet the Church is undoubtedly the recipient of these inspired gospels and epistles and is continually referred to under many varying descriptions throughout them. Like the whole book of Revelation, these books use varying descriptions of the Church of Jesus Christ such as “saints,” “elect,” “redeemed,” “brethren” and “servants.”
Moreover, the word ‘Church’ is also not used in relation to the overall body of Christ in Romans, 2 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Philemon and I Peter, but is only used in the context of the local visible gathering of God’s people, a number that quite often included professors and false-professors alike. However, the true Church – the body of Christ – relates solely to Christ’s blood-bought alone.
Notably, in the other New Testament books that do use the word “Church” in relation to the whole body of Christ, we find only one reference in Galatians, Philippians and James and only two verses in Matthew, Colossians and Hebrews. In the remaining books we have no mention of the Church after Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 15:9, Ephesians 5:32, 1 Timothy 5:16 and 3 John 1:10. Do all these particular passages reveal the actual demarcation line between the so-called Gospel age and the supposed Church-free Great Tribulation period?
Absence of any mention of "the Church"?
Using your reasoning, where is a record of the "Church" being raptured? It is not mentioned in Revelation 4. It must not be raptured according to your reasoning. You claim the "Church" is in heaven during your invented 7-year tribulation. There are multiple references to heaven between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19, but, there is no mention of the "Church." So, according to your reasoning it is on earth and it is not in heaven. Where is it? Please answer. There is no mention of the "Church" in Revelation 19 - your third coming (the white Horse coming that you are obsessed with). According to your reasoning, that is proof that the "Church" is not part of that event.
non ment
I will give you 15 solid reason why this reasoning is ridiculous and should be swiftly rejected. I will then explain these points.
(1) The word “Church,” as in the elect redeemed (born again) Church, is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation. There are only references to the local churches (which includes saved and unsaved) in Asia Minor in the last book in the Bible.
(2) The whole book of Revelation was written to local churches in Asia Minor 2,000 years ago for the expressed purpose of encouraging them in their hour of trial.
(3) Words, terms, titles and descriptions that are repeatedly used elsewhere in the New Testament to describe the Church of Jesus Christ are used regularly in Revelation 4 to 19 to describe the true Church of Jesus Christ.
(4) The apostate “churches” and their phony believers miss the rapture and enter this supposed 7 year tribulation, according to Pretrib – but the non-mention of the apostate “churches” must prove they are not on earth either. Where have they gone to?
(5) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 4 in the Pretrib rapture
(6) The word “Church” is not found in the heavenly passages between Revelation 4 and 19. Using Pretrib logic, then they must not be in heaven either.
(7) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 19 for the Pretrib 3rd Coming. So, they cannot be part of that supposed event.
(8) The word “Church” not found in Revelation 20 in the millennium. They cannot therefore be part of that period of time.
(9) The word ‘“Church” not found in Revelation 21 in the eternal state. They cannot therefore be part of the eternal state.
(10) The word ‘“Church” not found in many places throughout the New Testament.
(11) The word ‘“Church” is not found in all the popular Pretrib proof texts.
(12) What about the absence of the word “Jew” and “Hebrew” from Revelation 4-19, and the absence of the word “Israel” after Revelation 7.
(13) What about the non-mention of the popular Pretrib term ‘tribulation saints’ in Revelation 4-19?
(14) Whilst “the Church” has been caught up at the coming of Christ, even Pretrib teaches that local churches continue to exist after the rapture! Why are these churches not mentioned?
(15) Does the strange silence of the word “Christian” in Revelation 1-3 not prove Christians are not present or in view?
A Jewish Wedding?
This is one the biggest Pretrib scams that they have invented to deceive the deluded.
Does it take 7 yrs for a Jewish Wedding to be consummated? Of course not. This is another Pretrib invention that has no connection to reality or God's infallible Word. No scripture passage anywhere in the Bible compares a Pretrib rapture coming of the Lord to a 7 year or 7 day supposed Jewish Wedding tradition. When Christ is united with His bride; it will not be for a 7-day or 7-year consummation; it will be for eternity!
If you want to know when the marriage occurs; you must go to the end of the tribulation in Revelation chapter 19 when Jesus returns to the earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords. That is when Scripture teaches the marriage will occur.
Matthew 26:27-29 tells us what happens straight after the great climactic coming of Christ at the consummation: “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
At the end of a Jewish wedding the groom takes a plain gold ring and places it on the finger of the bride, and states: "Behold you are sanctified (betrothed) to me with this ring, according to the Law of Moses and Israel." This is immediately followed by the sheva brachos, or seven blessings. These blessings are recited over a full cup of wine. The couple then share in drinking the cup of wine, and the groom breaks a glass by stamping on it.
Jesus equally informed His disciples that He would not share in the cup of wine with them again until the arrival of His kingdom. If we take the Jewish wedding as an example, this precludes any marriage in heaven during the tribulation.
Postribber Tony Warren argues in an article on this issue (Jewish Wedding Customs & the Rapture): “If pretribulationists are right, we would expect the wedding and the feast to commence at the beginning of the tribulation, not after the tribulation as Revelation 19 plainly indicates. If Jesus was referring to heaven as the seven years in the “Chuppah” in John 14:1-3, the bride should have “made herself ready” before the pretribulation rapture (around Rev. 4). And the “marriage of the Lamb” should have occurred at the beginning of the tribulation, and not at its extreme end. The pretribulation scenario has Jesus being intimate with the Bride in the “Chuppah” for seven years before Revelation 19 indicates the wedding occurs!”
Dr. Robert Gundry contends. "If a purported pretrib coming to fetch the church to heaven is supposed to reflect the ancient Semitic custom of a groom's fetching the bride to his home, what is Jesus' taking the church with Him back to earth right after the marriage supper, and for a thousand years, supposed to reflect? An ancient Semitic custom of the groom's taking his bride back to her home to live with her there for a long time? The pretrib reasoning gets itself into a pickle by injecting a marriage custom that isn't even mentioned in the biblical text at hand, and then giving that custom argumentative weight of an allegorical sort but not carrying out the allegory consistently. In fact, our ignorance of ancient Semitic marriage customs exceeds our knowledge. And what knowledge we do have shows considerable variation in these customs."
Conclusion
Your whole reasoning is built upon sand. That is why it cannot stand scrutiny.
1+1+1+1+1 = 5 not 11111.
Edwards never said he didn't believe it or later repudiated it, but that's besides the point. Edwards wrote about two comings long before Lacunza. So, your initial claim that Lacunza invented it is incorrect. Also, I can give you other examples, if you prefer. French Reformed Protestant Peter Jurieu (1637–1713) wrote about Christ coming for the saints and returning to heaven before Armageddon in his work The Approaching Deliverance of the Church.
So, clearly, you don't need Jesuits to come up with a pre-trib rapture. Catholic (Jesuit) eschatology and pre-trib eschatology are fundamentally different. It's like trying to mix water and oil. Sure, you can find some things that overlap, but that doesn't prove borrowing. I'm sure you can find such similarities in every rapture position. At the end of the day, the pre-trib rapture doctrine in unique and stands on its own.
Irving brought it into evangelical Protestantism. Surprise surprise, he interpretation Lacunza's Jesuit book from Spanish to English. That is no mere overlap. That is an infiltration of protestantism with error.
No, but they do seclude themselves in the wedding chamber for seven days known as the "seven days of feasting" or "seven days of the bridal week." In biblical terms, 7 years is compared to a week. The number seven pops up quiet a lot in eschatology.
I think you're skipping around a bit. When they are betrothed, they are not officially married, that happens about a year later. That's when they have the ceremony at the seven blessings and actually consummate the marriage.
That's not entirely true. The bible does give several descriptions of the wedding, but since we're generally not familiar with the customs of their time, we miss them. There's lot of difference sources we could you use, biblical, extra-biblical, historical records, and so on two piece together what a wedding was like during that time.
LOL. This is all manufactured fizz-and-bubble. Honestly! So (more importantly) where are your beliefs in Scripture? Present Scripture that shows a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 yr trib followed a Pretrib 3rd coming?
Joachim Jeremias (an authority on ancient Jewish customs) confirms in The Parables of Jesus: "The mistaken idea has arisen because we possess no connected description of a wedding feast from the time of Jesus, but only modern collections of material which attempt to construct a connected mosaic out of the scattered allusions to be found in the rabbinic literature. There is evidence that these collections of material are incomplete. This is not surprising in view of the situation with regard to the sources; the material is unlimited and widely scattered, and the picture is extraordinarily varied; then as now, wedding customs differed in different districts; moreover, after the destruction of the Temple, under the repeated impact of national disasters, they underwent far reaching restrictions; but above all, the occasional reports which we possess are widely distributed in space and time: in space they come from Palestine and Babylonia, while in time they are spread over many centuries."
In his Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Alfred Edersheim wrote that the custom in Jesus' day was to have the wedding on a Wednesday, allowing the first three days of the week for the bride to prepare herself for her groom's coming. “The marriage followed [the betrothal ritual] after a longer or shorter interval, the limits of which, however, were fixed by law. The ceremony itself consisted in leading the bride into the house of the bridegroom, with certain formalities, mostly dating from very ancient times. Marriage with a maiden was commonly celebrated on a Wednesday afternoon, which allowed the first days of the week for preparation, and enabled the husband, if he had a charge to prefer against the previous chastity of his bride, to make immediate complaint before the local Sanhedrim, which sat every Thursday ... This circumstance enables us, with some certainty, to arrange the date of the events which preceded the marriage in Cana. Inferring from the accompanying festivities that it was the marriage of a maiden, and therefore took place on a Wednesday ... On ‘the third day’ after it, that is, on Wednesday, was the marriage in Cana of Galilee.”
