It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
- Thread starter WPM
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@WPM ....can you prove the pre-trib rapture is a Jesuit invention?
From what I have learned The Roman Catholic Church, including the Jesuit order, does not teach or endorse this doctrine.
So, defend your accusation....or retract.
Taken
Well-Known Member
No. You do that Speaking FOR Others repeatedly…even NOW..
Yet… it is YOU speaking For them.
For your limited Understanding…
When you are away from your home, AT WORK…
And you have notified your family that you That you ARE coming Home…
And stop in the parking lot and talk to co-workers…
And stop at a coffee shop to get a drink…
And stop at a store to buy some ice cream…
Did you Lie to your family?
Did you STOP your travels of Coming Home?
Jesus WAS IN High Heaven.
Jesus WAS Sent to Earth.
Jesus WAS Seen ON Earth.
Jesus Was Seen Standing atop a Mount.
Jesus WAS Seen Rising Up in the Sky.
Jesus Was seen Entering the Clouds.
Did YOU See Jesus Arrive BACK to The High Heavens?
Obviously YOU Expect TO SEE Jesus’ RETURN …. TO Earth…
According TO YOUR warped Understanding…and have a hissy fit for those who disagree with you.
Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.
This doctrine began to fester within the system of Romanism which by now had a few dozen more erroneous and blasphemous doctrines introduced as biblical truths by its own leadership. But it wasn't until 1745AD that another Jesuit named Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz began to really distort the Scriptures through doctrines that perfectly fit the category of the kind of doctrines whose destructive results we are warned about by Paul. (2 Tim 4:3-4) .
Back in the 18th Century, there was a Spanish family living in Chile named the De Lacunzas. In 1731, they had a baby boy whom they named Manuel. After fifteen years at home, young Manuel boarded a ship bound for Spain. He wanted to join the holy orders of Romanism and become a Jesuit priest. Twenty-one years later, the Jesuits were expelled from Spain because of their brutality, and "Father" Manuel de Lucunza y Diaz was forced to leave the country. He made his new home in Imola, Italy, where he remained for the rest of his life. While in Imola, Lacunza claimed to be a converted Jew named "Rabbi Ben Ezra."
Under that alias, he pens down a doctrine which he calls "The coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty." He theorizes for the first time ever the end-time tribulation view. A book with his entire work was published in Spanish after his death.
The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.
Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.
Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.
This is the origin of Pretrib.
Taken
Well-Known Member
The offering of Salvation IS TO the living.
It IS the Living…who that Believe IN their Heart at their Time of mortal Bodily Death, who Are Saved by God.
It IS the Living…who that call on the Lord Jesus, CONFESS with their Word of Heartful Belief, ARE bodily Crucified with Jesus’ Body, ARE Saved by Christ Jesus.
These are Still Mortally alive… but Spiritually Living IN Christ Jesus’ Risen Body…
They Called;
Saints (and offer prayers FOR each other)
IN Christ (and the Spirit of God IN them)
Christ’s Church (Exclusive Saved members)
Christ’s Bride ( a future ceremony)
Future ceremony… Because as long as humans are still being born…There will be more Becoming Saved by Christs Jesus’ Salvation.
Once Christ Has Redeemed His Bride… The door for men to Receive Christs Salvation is Closed.
The Giving of Salvation is Given AFTER a bodily Death.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Old, old, repetitive boring Nonsense…
No one has ANY Obligation to PROVE YOUR Claims!
The knowledge of the Rapture …
AND WHO Specifically the Rapture Applies TO;
AND WHY,
IN Scripture has repeatedly been shown you…
No one can Read it For You.
No one can Believe it For You.
No one can Understand it For You.
LOL. You cannot even show what you have been taught from Scripture. I will try again for the reader: can you show us from Scripture a catching away of the Church followed by any period of tribulation followed by a 3rd coming?
Taken
Well-Known Member
LOL....you're so wrong.
You posted....
Interesting.....no mention of a rapture in any form. But just for the record...there will be an antichrist once the restrainer is removed...there will be an end time Babylon, whatever that loos like. There will be a 3rd temple.
It appears you like to ....s t r e t c h ...your speculative opinions.
Then again I have absolutely proven you wrong...do you remember THIS?
Perhaps you conveniently about it. Yes?
Do the honorable thing and admit you're wrong....Repent of your pride.
With all due respect...you made it sound like your salvation isn't determined until you die.
Commenting on 1 Thes. 4:13-18, Lacunza had this to say:
"from these words the apostle, which he himself gives us to know, that he spoke by the word of the Lord, we derive two truths of utmost importance; first, that when the Lord returns from heaven to earth, upon His coming forth from heaven, and much before his arrival at the earth, He will give His orders, and send forth His commandment as King and God omnipotent; which is all signified in these words, With a shout, (in the vulgate, jus su, i.e. by the order) with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. At this voice of the Son of God, those who hear it, shall forthwith arise, and, as saith the Evangelist St. John (chapter v. 25.) 'those who will hear shall live.' "
At the first he said, "This great day being at length concluded, (the time of the duration of which we know not,) the horrible tempest being overpast, all the impious the sinful being exterminated thence...." (Vol. 2, Part III, ch. v., page 249).
“Although it was said at the beginning of the fourth section that it is uncertain how long the great and terrible day of the Lord's coming will endure, that is the commotion, perturbation, and agitation of our globe ; yet having now read with greater reflection the xiith chapter of the prophet Daniel, it appeareth to me certain that it cannot endure a shorter time than the space of forty-five natural days. Whoever
Taken
Well-Known Member
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This shows the catching away of the saints. We all believe that. Hello! But, where is your tribulation following that in the text?
The catching away is likened unto the consummation of a marriage.
Revelation 19:7-10, which Pretribs attempt to attribute to a so-called third coming of Christ. A close look at this chapter will show it to relate to the one and only coming of Christ for His people. It tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come [Gr. erchomai], and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are ‘called’ [Gr. kaleō] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
This word “called” as in “called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb” comes from the Greek word kaleō meaning to be invited or bidden. This refers to the catching away of the saints when those on earth are bidden to meet Christ in the air.
Clearly “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. This woman with her innate purity is such a contrast to the whore in the introductory verses that is judged. The two women couldn’t be more diverse. One is judged the other is blessed. The status of the Lamb’s wife is outlined in the passage and confirms her honoured status; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The wife is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their trust and eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.
The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.
You quoted Revelation 19 and then jumped elsewhere for your answer. That's because Revelation 19 teaches the opposite to what you are claiming.LOL. You quoted Revelation 19 and then jumped elsewhere for your answer. That's because Revelation 19 teaches the opposite to what you are claiming.
Revelation 19:11-21 outlines: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.
Taken
Well-Known Member
No… Offered Before a mans bodily Death.
Agreed to Receive According to Gods Order and Way.
Literally Given After Agreeing, and After Bodily Death Accounting.
The Dead body can Agree to nothing.
Taken
Well-Known Member
