It's about "relationship"...right?

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michaelvpardo

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Not sure what Bible you're reading. MY Bible has Paul saying he "keeps his body under" and brings it "into submission" lest after he preaches the Gospel, he winds up a castaway bound for hell.
Every translation says the same thing, you just have to pay attention to what you read.

"So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:14
(The Lord's command)

Paul's justification for ignoring the Lord's command follows immediately afterward.
" 15But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one. 16For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 17For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 1 Corinthians 9:15-17

We accept his excuse because he's an Apostle and wrote the better part of the Epistles, but he very plainly ignored the Lord's instructions.

But let me ask you, what does this mean?
"Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Corinthians 3:4-6

What "letter" is Paul referring to and why does it kill?
 

Phoneman777

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Every translation says the same thing, you just have to pay attention to what you read.

"So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:14
(The Lord's command)

Paul's justification for ignoring the Lord's command follows immediately afterward.
" 15But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one. 16For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 17For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 1 Corinthians 9:15-17
Good grief, I've never seen a more convoluted interpretation. I want Book, Chapter, and Verse where God commands preachers to demand compensation for their work...no such commandment exists for Paul to disobey.

Paul's simply saying, "Though I have a God ordained right to ask, I ask nothing of you, lest someone accuses me of making the Gospel a traded commodity".
But let me ask you, what does this mean?
"Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Corinthians 3:4-6

What "letter" is Paul referring to and why does it kill?
Taking into consideration the ENTIRETY of Paul's writings, he's once again illustrating the futility of attempting to earn salvation by keeping the "letter of the law", rather than becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus, the evidence of which is the keeping of the "spirit of the law".

Now, let me ask you: Can you keep the "spirit of the law" while breaking the "letter of the law"?

Can a married man commit adultery without having lustful thoughts toward the naked woman lying beneath him?

Can a murderer kill another man while claiming to have love, compassion, good will toward his victim?

It's time we dispense with this hypergrace nonsense that Christians can abandon the "letter of the law" as long as they keep the "spirit of the law". If you're keeping the spirit, by default, you'll be keeping the letter.
 

michaelvpardo

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Good grief, I've never seen a more convoluted interpretation. I want Book, Chapter, and Verse where God commands preachers to demand compensation for their work...no such commandment exists for Paul to disobey.

Paul's simply saying, "Though I have a God ordained right to ask, I ask nothing of you, lest someone accuses me of making the Gospel a traded commodity".
Taking into consideration the ENTIRETY of Paul's writings, he's once again illustrating the futility of attempting to earn salvation by keeping the "letter of the law", rather than becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus, the evidence of which is the keeping of the "spirit of the law".

Now, let me ask you: Can you keep the "spirit of the law" while breaking the "letter of the law"?

Can a married man commit adultery without having lustful thoughts toward the naked woman lying beneath him?

Can a murderer kill another man while claiming to have love, compassion, good will toward his victim?

It's time we dispense with this hypergrace nonsense that Christians can abandon the "letter of the law" as long as they keep the "spirit of the law". If you're keeping the spirit, by default, you'll be keeping the letter.
You might try reading scripture a bit more carefully.
I gave you the verse in first Corinthians chapter 9 that says the Lord directed those who preach the gospel should earn a living by it. The whole chapter is Paul's justification for not taking any support. Why on Earth would Paul write an entire page justifying his behavior in this if he weren't ignoring the command?

However, the command comes out of the gospels when the Lord instructed, very specifically, His disciples to go out two by two preaching the gospel throughout the towns of Israel.
How could you have read the gospels without seeing this?

" These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. “As you enter the house, give it your greeting “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Matthew 10:5-13
So, was this commanded by the Lord, or just a suggestion?

He ordered "the twelve" to do this and while Paul was not of the twelve, he was ordained an Apostle by the risen Lord. It's clear from chapter 9 of 1 Corinthians that Paul understood the instructions. The Apostles did not work for a living, but were supported by the church and devoted their time to the ministry of the word.

"So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. “Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. “But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” Acts 6:2-4

In regard to your question, "
Now, let me ask you: Can you keep the "spirit of the law" while breaking the "letter of the law"?

Yes, absolutely, Jesus broke the letter of the law on every Sabbath that He performed a miraculous work. His disciples broke the letter of the law when gathering and eating grain (while passing through the standing fields) on the Sabbath. These stories are in the gospels specifically to illustrate that the law condemns, but the Spirit gives life.


 

Phoneman777

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You might try reading scripture a bit more carefully.
I gave you the verse in first Corinthians chapter 9 that says the Lord directed those who preach the gospel should earn a living by it.
Please allow me to spell this out:

Who is doing the work, the Plowman or the Ox? So then, to whom is the commandment to "not muzzle" directed, the Ox doing the work or the Plowman for whom the work is being done? Is the Ox commanded to eat? Of course not.

LIKEWISE:

Paul likens those like him as oxen doing the work, and the command not to "muzzle Paul" is directed to those for whom Paul's work is being done, the church. Is Paul commanded to eat? Of course not. Not a single verse says he must do so, else he would have.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Good grief, I've never seen a more convoluted interpretation. I want Book, Chapter, and Verse where God commands preachers to demand compensation for their work...no such commandment exists for Paul to disobey.

Paul's simply saying, "Though I have a God ordained right to ask, I ask nothing of you, lest someone accuses me of making the Gospel a traded commodity".
Taking into consideration the ENTIRETY of Paul's writings, he's once again illustrating the futility of attempting to earn salvation by keeping the "letter of the law", rather than becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus, the evidence of which is the keeping of the "spirit of the law".

Now, let me ask you: Can you keep the "spirit of the law" while breaking the "letter of the law"?

Can a married man commit adultery without having lustful thoughts toward the naked woman lying beneath him?

Can a murderer kill another man while claiming to have love, compassion, good will toward his victim?

It's time we dispense with this hypergrace nonsense that Christians can abandon the "letter of the law" as long as they keep the "spirit of the law". If you're keeping the spirit, by default, you'll be keeping the letter.
The letter of the Law is one thing and Grace is above the Law. Not that the Law is wrong ! but we do not or are not under the Law in regards to the Tetter of the Law ? as the Jews were ! because of Grace !

It is true that the Law still has not been done away with at all in fact ! but such is under Grace ? such is a huge difference in fact ! because under Grace such is of the Holy Spirit in fact and where Grace abound ! such does produce fruit !

But the Letter of the Law did not produce fruit ! because it lacked Grace. but the Law was set to do a function, but the letter ? as a function does not exist under Grace ? but the Law still does exist as the foundation stones of God.

Not to mention that anyone who rejects the Laws is not of God in fact ! now some do not fathom such and that's because they do not have Grace to understand the difference between such as condemning and what Grace truly is in fact.

The Letter of the Law on it's self only condemns acts, but when Grace abounds Light is shone upon ! but as to the Letter no light need be shone.

Remember that the Law is the Law and that the letter of the Law is an addition of the Law that lacks Grace in fact.

Fact is that their is not one thing that is wrong with the Law ! It's the letter of the Law that is passed away because Grace abounds !

Now as to the so called Jews of today, they do not abide in the letter of the Law ? so they are not worthy of God at all in fact as Jews ! so they must be something other than the OT Jews ? but do they abide in the Law ? but what Law ? Talmud Law ? not to mention that the Talmud is fashioned by man made gods and they idolise that bastard so called Star they have on their Flag ! But Every true worthy Christian knows that in Acts Stephen pointed out that that was a work of Man, Not God ! The True Israelites have the Menorah.
 
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michaelvpardo

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Please allow me to spell this out:

Who is doing the work, the Plowman or the Ox? So then, to whom is the commandment to "not muzzle" directed, the Ox doing the work or the Plowman for whom the work is being done? Is the Ox commanded to eat? Of course not.

LIKEWISE:

Paul likens those like him as oxen doing the work, and the command not to "muzzle Paul" is directed to those for whom Paul's work is being done, the church. Is Paul commanded to eat? Of course not. Not a single verse says he must do so, else he would have.
So Jesus never instructed His Apostles to earn their living by preaching it and we can just tear a page out of the gospels and pretend it doesn't exist?
I appreciate your skill at avoiding all the questions that you're unable or unwilling to answer, but that's disingenuous (or in biblical terms, insincere.)
Thanks for your opinions, but half a truth isn't truth at all.
Have a nice life.
 

Behold

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I'm trying to have a nice life, but the record keeps needing correction:

"If you are trying to be saved or sanctified by law..." That's your words, post #53...did someone hack into your account or are you mistaken?

He didn't say that salvation has anything to do with the law....>He said exactly the opposite.
Did you misinterpret what he said on purpose?
 
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Phoneman777

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So Jesus never instructed His Apostles to earn their living by preaching it and we can just tear a page out of the gospels and pretend it doesn't exist?
Where is this instruction found?
I appreciate your skill at avoiding all the questions that you're unable or unwilling to answer, but that's disingenuous (or in biblical terms, insincere.) Thanks for your opinions, but half a truth isn't truth at all. Have a nice life.
I don't appreciate you making up the Bible as you go and your refusal to cite specific passages where God commands the apostles to demand compensation for their preaching. Again, Paul violated NO commandment of God by refusing to be compensated for his work. By your logic, Peter is going to hell for refusing Simon Magus. :rolleyes:
 

Phoneman777

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He didn't say that salvation has anything to do with the law....>He said exactly the opposite.
Did you misinterpret what he said on purpose?
Why are you telling me what I already know?
 

michaelvpardo

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Where is this instruction found?
I don't appreciate you making up the Bible as you go and your refusal to cite specific passages where God commands the apostles to demand compensation for their preaching. Again, Paul violated NO commandment of God by refusing to be compensated for his work. By your logic, Peter is going to hell for refusing Simon Magus. :rolleyes:
In the passage I quoted as a proof and which you obviously can't see.


" These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. “As you enter the house, give it your greeting “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Matthew 10:5-13

Those instructions are plainly written in this English translation of Matthew 10:5-13.

Would you like a translation from another language?
Even the corrupted translations didn't bother changing these instructions. They are also the reason scripture advises us not to welcome (show hospitality ) to those bringing another gospel. That's exceptional because hospitality is supposed to be the norm for Christians.
Try reading them at least 7 times and maybe the Lord will open your eyes.
 

Phoneman777

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In the passage I quoted as a proof and which you obviously can't see.


" These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. “As you enter the house, give it your greeting “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Matthew 10:5-13

Those instructions are plainly written in this English translation of Matthew 10:5-13.

Would you like a translation from another language?
Even the corrupted translations didn't bother changing these instructions. They are also the reason scripture advises us not to welcome (show hospitality ) to those bringing another gospel. That's exceptional because hospitality is supposed to be the norm for Christians.
Try reading them at least 7 times and maybe the Lord will open your eyes.
WHERE IS THE COMMAND TO DEMAND?????
 

michaelvpardo

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WHERE IS THE COMMAND TO DEMAND?????
Read the verses 7 times and maybe the Lord will open your eyes. Did Jesus have to preface His commands with "thou shall not" or "thou shall?" You’re being willfully ignorant or you remain blind. The latter is far better than the former, but false preconceptions will do that.

If it wasn't commanded, there would have been no reason for Paul to defend his actions. His ministry was exceptional, a Jew going to the goyim. No 1st century Rabbi (except possibly the Lord Himself) would enter the house of a goyim, sit down with them, eat their food, or even touch their hand.
 

Phoneman777

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Read the verses 7 times and maybe the Lord will open your eyes. Did Jesus have to preface His commands with "thou shall not" or "thou shall?" You’re being willfully ignorant or you remain blind. The latter is far better than the former, but false preconceptions will do that.

If it wasn't commanded, there would have been no reason for Paul to defend his actions. His ministry was exceptional, a Jew going to the goyim. No 1st century Rabbi (except possibly the Lord Himself) would enter the house of a goyim, sit down with them, eat their food, or even touch their hand.
Can't point to any of them as such, it seems.
 

michaelvpardo

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Can't point to any of them as such, it seems.
Why should I, Paul did in 1 Corinthians chapter 9, but I'll yank the verse out of context just for you.

" Freely you received, freely give. “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. “

Was this just a suggestion?
 

Phoneman777

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Why should I, Paul did in 1 Corinthians chapter 9, but I'll yank the verse out of context just for you. " Freely you received, freely give.
Paul didn't say that, JESUS said that. And, it ain't referring to money, it's referring to Holy Spirit gifts of healing, cleansing, resurrecting, etc.

Jesus is commanding them to be generous in the impartation of these gifts. TRY AGAIN, SIR.
Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. “ Was this just a suggestion?
The command is to not pack provisions - not to demand compensation! The phrase "the worker is worthy of his support" is a statement of fact, not a command to demand anything! But, you want it to be a command so that you can make Paul a disobedient Christian. There is not command that apostles must not refuse compensation or else Peter would be guilty for refusing Simon Magus' money, right or wrong?

Stop trying to make Paul an example for why it's OK to disobey God.
 

אבץ

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Uh I don't know what's going on ITT, but figure I may have something vaguely relevant to discuss. I've begun a relationship with a woman, and I'm concerned about how to let her in on my view of the world.

Problem is, she grew up in the USSR. Atheism is taken for granted by her, even more so than in my thoroughly secular world. Broaching the subject of religion seems like a tall order. She's spent quite some time at my place already, but left just before I got around to celebrating the first sunday of advent.

I planned on just lighting up like tradition, but western liturgy is altogether foreign to her, so I bet it didn't cross her mind that it's even a thing. How would you go about easing into the subject?