It's about "relationship"...right?

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michaelvpardo

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Eros, phileo, storge? Sure, all people know that...but only the saints of God can demonstrate "agape" which is by happily keeping the commandments of God (1 John 5:3 KJV; Romans 8:7 KJV). This is precisely why the "many" in Matthew 24:12 KJV are "saints" which won't "endure to the end" and wind up "saved" like the saint in verse 13.
Thank you. Now I understand your issue and will pray for you.
The word Agape didn't exist prior to the 17th century. The Greek words translated as such are ancient and used as early as 800 BC if not earlier. The idea that the ancient Greeks invented a word that didn't apply to anyone prior to a church that would appear centuries later is an absurdity. The word just describes a type of selfless or sacrificial love which is not unique to Christianity.
While a sound interpretation of scripture should be in agreement with sound theology derived from the volume of the book, that isn't a license to impose your understanding upon scripture. That practice, though more common than exegesis, is the principle source of cultic interpretation. It's generally referred to as eisegesis.
 
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Phoneman777

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Thank you. Now I understand your issue and will pray for you.
The word Agape didn't exist prior to the 17th century. The Greek words translated as such are ancient and used as early as 800 BC if not earlier. The idea that the ancient Greeks invented a word that didn't apply to anyone prior to a church that would appear centuries later is an absurdity. The word just describes a type of selfless or sacrificial love which is not unique to Christianity.
While a sound interpretation of scripture should be in agreement with sound theology derived from the volume of the book, that isn't a license to impose your understanding upon scripture. That practice, though more common than exegesis, is the principle source of cultic interpretation. It's generally referred to as eisegesis.
I'm not sure about "agape" not existing until the 17th century, but one thing is for sure: the "love" of God that is demonstrated by happily keeping His commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV) is the SAME love that those lost saints allowed widespread iniquity to kill cold and dead, leaving them unable to "endure to the end" and be "saved".

That, friend, is not eisogesis, but solid exegesis. OSAS cannot stand the test of Biblical scrutiny, seeing that only the saints of God can demonstrate the love of God by happily keeping His commandments, while the wicked can't keep them even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).
 

michaelvpardo

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I'm not sure about "agape" not existing until the 17th century, but one thing is for sure: the "love" of God that is demonstrated by happily keeping His commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV) is the SAME love that those lost saints allowed widespread iniquity to kill cold and dead, leaving them unable to "endure to the end" and be "saved".

That, friend, is not eisogesis, but solid exegesis. OSAS cannot stand the test of Biblical scrutiny, seeing that only the saints of God can demonstrate the love of God by happily keeping His commandments, while the wicked can't keep them even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).
So, those who happily kept his commandments outside the commonwealth of Israel, having an inherent knowledge of God's law within them, as the Apostle Paul taught, were indeed capable of expressing Agape. Thanks for helping to prove my point. It's not enough to keep God's commandments "most of the time." They were given formally to Israel in covenants, and both Moses and the Apostle Paul affirm that breaking any part of the covenant, even once, breaks the covenant and places a curse upon those that broke it.
 

farouk

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So, those who happily kept his commandments outside the commonwealth of Israel, having an inherent knowledge of God's law within them, as the Apostle Paul taught, were indeed capable of expressing Agape. Thanks for helping to prove my point. It's not enough to keep God's commandments "most of the time." They were given formally to Israel in covenants, and both Moses and the Apostle Paul affirm that breaking any part of the covenant, even once, breaks the covenant and places a curse upon those that broke it.
@michaelvpardo So....it's saving faith that counts (Hebrews 11; Ephesians 2.8-9), not works........
 

michaelvpardo

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@michaelvpardo So....it's saving faith that counts (Hebrews 11; Ephesians 2.8-9), not works........
Of course, but absolutely nothing in scripture says that Agape is only expressed by Christians. Agape isn't a name of God, but a description of a type of behavior and there is nothing in scripture that says Christians express this type of love more perfectly than anyone else. To the contrary, scripture compares God's love to not only human behavior, but to that of chickens and Eagles. I'm reasonably sure that chickens and Eagles aren't born again Christians.
 
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Phoneman777

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So, those who happily kept his commandments outside the commonwealth of Israel, having an inherent knowledge of God's law within them, as the Apostle Paul taught, were indeed capable of expressing Agape. Thanks for helping to prove my point.
I don't deny this point: I agree that those who "keep the law, having not the law" are just as much a saint as the missionaries who often eventually show up to their remote village and teach them in person more fully about was previously only revealed to them by God's Spirit. Ever see "End of the Spear"? What happened as the white men were speared to death? Amazing story.
It's not enough to keep God's commandments "most of the time." They were given formally to Israel in covenants, and both Moses and the Apostle Paul affirm that breaking any part of the covenant, even once, breaks the covenant and places a curse upon those that broke it.
What constitutes "breaking" them? After all, the OT says "The Just Man falls seven times and rises up again". There seems to be a differentiation between what the Bible calls "sin" and what is popularly (and rigidly) called "sin", which this popular interpretation uses to deny the very real and very possible ability of us to keep the Ten Commandments.
 

michaelvpardo

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I don't deny this point: I agree that those who "keep the law, having not the law" are just as much a saint as the missionaries who often eventually show up to their remote village and teach them in person more fully about was previously only revealed to them by God's Spirit. Ever see "End of the Spear"? What happened as the white men were speared to death? Amazing story.
What constitutes "breaking" them? After all, the OT says "The Just Man falls seven times and rises up again". There seems to be a differentiation between what the Bible calls "sin" and what is popularly (and rigidly) called "sin", which this popular interpretation uses to deny the very real and very possible ability of us to keep the Ten Commandments.
You find this first in Deuteronomy:
"Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ” Deuteronomy 27:26

Then the same principle was expounded by James, the brother of our Lord :
"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:10-13

Jesus preached the law to those under the law. James knew the law, but was not constrained by it, and preached the "law of liberty" through which there is no condemnation.
 

Phoneman777

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You find this first in Deuteronomy:
"Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ” Deuteronomy 27:26

Then the same principle was expounded by James, the brother of our Lord :
"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:10-13

Jesus preached the law to those under the law. James knew the law, but was not constrained by it, and preached the "law of liberty" through which there is no condemnation.
Of course James was constrained by the law - he says it's a mirror in which we look to see if we're living according to it, and we're blessed if we daily check to see if we've gotten dirt on us...which answers the question as to why so many antinomianists hate the idea of Christians being obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, but refuse to name which ones we're at liberty to break:

When the Law of Liberty - the mirror - shows the Christian they've gotten some dirt on their face, instead of going to Jesus for cleansing so they may happily look again therein and with a smile thank Jesus for cleaning them up, their "solution" is to break the mirror and forget all about their filthy countenance. He then warns us that we're not to be "partial in the law" (Malachi 2:9 KJV) by keeping "do not commit adultery" but breaking "do not kill", but that we are to "so speak ye and so do as they which shall be judged by the law of liberty".
 

michaelvpardo

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Of course James was constrained by the law - he says it's a mirror in which we look to see if we're living according to it, and we're blessed if we daily check to see if we've gotten dirt on us...which answers the question as to why so many antinomianists hate the idea of Christians being obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, but refuse to name which ones we're at liberty to break:

When the Law of Liberty - the mirror - shows the Christian they've gotten some dirt on their face, instead of going to Jesus for cleansing so they may happily look again therein and with a smile thank Jesus for cleaning them up, their "solution" is to break the mirror and forget all about their filthy countenance. He then warns us that we're not to be "partial in the law" (Malachi 2:9 KJV) by keeping "do not commit adultery" but breaking "do not kill", but that we are to "so speak ye and so do as they which shall be judged by the law of liberty".
Nice chatting absurdities with you, but I've been asked to volunteer my time and writing skills elsewhere, so I have prayer, consultations, and decisions to make. Have a nice life.
 

Phoneman777

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Nice chatting absurdities with you, but I've been asked to volunteer my time and writing skills elsewhere, so I have prayer
"He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination". - Proverbs 28:9 KJV
 

michaelvpardo

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"He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination". - Proverbs 28:9 KJV
It is not possible for a born again soul to turn away from the law within him or her. It's always there. The One who wrote it dwells within us. No worries, keep seeking Him and someday he'll find you.
 

Phoneman777

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It is not possible for a born again soul to turn away from the law within him or her. It's always there. The One who wrote it dwells within us. No worries, keep seeking Him and someday he'll find you.
Matthew 24:12-13 KJV is irrefutable proof - along with texts in Hebrews, Peter's epistles, Jesus' story of the Unmerciful Servant, etc. - that the saved can and will wind up lost who withdraw their surrendered will from God. Turn from trusting in a worthless OSAS License to Sin and trust alone in Jesus as BOTH our Savior AND our LORD.

"Trust and obey,
for there's no other way,
to be happy in Jesus,
but to trust and obey".
 

michaelvpardo

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Matthew 24:12-13 KJV is irrefutable proof - along with texts in Hebrews, Peter's epistles, Jesus' story of the Unmerciful Servant, etc. - that the saved can and will wind up lost who withdraw their surrendered will from God. Turn from trusting in a worthless OSAS License to Sin and trust alone in Jesus as BOTH our Savior AND our LORD.

"Trust and obey,
for there's no other way,
to be happy in Jesus,
but to trust and obey".
Trust and obey isn't the problem. Treating His blood as a common thing is. Believing that His sacrifice is insufficient is. Sanctification by works is. Being devoid of His Spirit most definitely is. If you are trying to be saved or sanctified by law, you have denied the faith and are an enemy of the cross.
 
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Phoneman777

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Trust and obey isn't the problem. Treating His blood as a common thing is. Believing that His sacrifice is insufficient is. Sanctification by works is. Being devoid of His Spirit most definitely is. If you are trying to be saved or sanctified by law, you have denied the faith and are an enemy of the cross.
Please force yourself to divorce yourself from what the lying pulpit prophets have told you, and understand that good works don't gain for us heaven and bad works don't consign us to hell - works are the outward evidence of our own chosen spiritual condition.

The "Christian" who claims he's chosen Jesus but lives in sin is a "liar and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:4 KJV) and he will go to hell. Can you see that it's not his works that earn him hellfire, but his "chosen inward spiritual condition", from which the fruit of disobedience grows forth? Yes, it is exactly that. Conversely, the Just Man brings forth the fruit of good works by virtue of having chosen Jesus Who channels the "will and to do" of His good pleasure through him.

Remember, works are merely the outward evidence of our chose spiritual condition. Of course, many adolescent immature OSAS Christians hear this truth and begin to tremble, but the answer is "turn ye, turn ye, for why will you die?" If we choose Jesus, our actions will follow that choice.
 

Wynona

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High-sounding platitudes - we hear them constantly. Where once was powerfully preached and gladly heard echoed a plain "thus saith the Lord" is now filled with a cacophony of shallow religious colloquialisms and sound bites...and Christians of today's largely backslidden church "love to have it so" (Jeremiah 5:31 KJV). One of the most popular of these is "It's not about religion, but about relaaaaationship". Fine, then. What were perhaps the two most important things Jesus referred to in teaching us about what constitutes a proper relationship with God? about how He relates to us and how we are to Him?

Children and marriage.

So, what did God say was to be the fate of Israelite children who strike their parents? Stoned to death. Yet, somehow the OSAS crowd which makes up the majority of Christianity today ignores this divine revelation of God's uncompromising will that solemn reverence for parents be in the heart of every child, young or old, that by this they may also learn to reverence Him -- and instead, spit in their heavenly Father's face and "crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame" by willfully sinning against Him after receiving a knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26 KJV). They believe grace somehow cripples His justice and makes His bark worse than His bite - that the fresh nails of sin they drive daily into the hands and feet of Jesus will go unnoticed in the day of Judgment.

So, what does the Bible say about the marital obligations of the husband and wife? That the man (or woman) who commits adultery is a fool who will end up lost (Proverbs 6:32 KJV). Yet, somehow the OSAS "faithful" think God is satisfied with presumptuous, deliberate, habitual unfaithfulness to His Ten Commandments, while they themselves will slap even a one-time unfaithful spouse with divorce papers and remarry before the ink has a chance to dry.

Sure, it's about "relationship" alright - one of double standards and selfish terms. Is that the kind of relationship we are to have with the One Who had every right to abandon us with that first bite of forbidden fruit, but instead at that moment began a long journey to what would be the ultimate, infinite sacrifice for our redemption - even if not a single soul would have been touched by His grace and surrendered their heart to Him?

Good point but

Why do Christians jump on the bandwagon and speak against religion now?

(Because we don't read our Bibles)

The book of James says true religion is to visit and help orphans and widows and keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Why is this a bad thing? Can we stop agreeing with secular people about religion being bad now?
 

michaelvpardo

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Please force yourself to divorce yourself from what the lying pulpit prophets have told you, and understand that good works don't gain for us heaven and bad works don't consign us to hell - works are the outward evidence of our own chosen spiritual condition.

The "Christian" who claims he's chosen Jesus but lives in sin is a "liar and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:4 KJV) and he will go to hell. Can you see that it's not his works that earn him hellfire, but his "chosen inward spiritual condition", from which the fruit of disobedience grows forth? Yes, it is exactly that. Conversely, the Just Man brings forth the fruit of good works by virtue of having chosen Jesus Who channels the "will and to do" of His good pleasure through him.

Remember, works are merely the outward evidence of our chose spiritual condition. Of course, many adolescent immature OSAS Christians hear this truth and begin to tremble, but the answer is "turn ye, turn ye, for why will you die?" If we choose Jesus, our actions will follow that choice.
I think you're confusing me with another poster. Baptists hold to the doctrine that salvation and sanctification are entirely the work of God. We don't do a thing to be "saved" except believe the gospel and place our trust in Jesus Christ. Obedience to the Lord is understood in submitting to Him, but we are under a new covenant of grace, not of law.
 
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Phoneman777

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I think you're confusing me with another poster. Baptists hold to the doctrine that salvation and sanctification are entirely the work of God. We don't do a thing to be "saved" except believe the gospel and place our trust in Jesus Christ. Obedience to the Lord is understood in submitting to Him, but we are under a new covenant of grace, not of law.
No, it was for you. You mention something about obtaining salvation by the law, so I made the point that obedience doesn't save nor does disobedience condemn - our choices do that and our works are merely the outward evidence of that inward choice.
 

michaelvpardo

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No, it was for you. You mention something about obtaining salvation by the law, so I made the point that obedience doesn't save nor does disobedience condemn - our choices do that and our works are merely the outward evidence of that inward choice.
I have never said that salvation had anything to do with the works of the law, never. Have a nice life.
 

Phoneman777

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I have never said that salvation had anything to do with the works of the law, never. Have a nice life.
I'm trying to have a nice life, but the record keeps needing correction:

"If you are trying to be saved or sanctified by law..." That's your words, post #53...did someone hack into your account or are you mistaken?

BTW, Jesus settled the "earned salvation" issue once and for all in Luke 17:10 by saying even the perfectly obedient are "unprofitable servants" -- and we in the Conditional Salvationist concur.
 
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Phoneman777

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You find this first in Deuteronomy:
"Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ” Deuteronomy 27:26

Then the same principle was expounded by James, the brother of our Lord :
"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:10-13

Jesus preached the law to those under the law. James knew the law, but was not constrained by it, and preached the "law of liberty" through which there is no condemnation.
I grew up Baptist and much of my extended family attended the same church. I was brainwashed Sunday after Sunday by this unBiblical interpretation you present, as if Moses and James are offering two options for salvation, the one by faith and the other by perfect obedience. Moses and James aren't saying, "If you're going to be saved by keeping the law, you better keep the WHOLE law, or else you'll fail" - they're simply defining what it means to belong to God, which is repentance and overcoming sin. What a tragedy so many wrongly interpret them to mean, "You can't keep the law, because we can't stop sinning", including you.

What Moses and James said is no different than was said by Jesus ("go and sin no more"), John ("he that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar..."), Paul ("not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law shall be justified in His sight"), etc. Got it?

Y'know what I observed about those Baptists? Just about every single one of the men would stumble in Sunday morning after getting stinkin drunk the night before, and the women engaged in a seemingly endless round of gossip about each other, what one inspired writer called "spiritual cannibalism". If only I'd been old enough to warn them that although the Just Man falls 7 times and rises again, the Presumptuous Baptist Man will split hell wide open.
 
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