Jesus Chooses Us

[GodsGrace]

Do you understand what I mean when I say the Sovereignty of God? I am speaking of the doctrines espoused through the acronym T.U.L.I.P.

1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perseverance of the saints

Yes rwb.
I know what you mean.
Problem is that other denominations do not agree....
Paul did not agree...
No one agreed till Augustine in the 5th century.


Read the other 2 posts too....
but it's late here....
catch you in the morning.

 

[GracePeace]

It IS being discussed GracePeace.
Monergism just means that God does EVERYTHING....
it's the opposite of what synergism means.

The ONLY persons that believe in monergism are the reformed/calvinist believers...
this is why you're going to attract this type of conversation.

@rwb is saying that God does everything.
I'm saying we have a part (as you believe).

If this isn't what you intended,,,then I apologize...
although I will be finishing up with my very pleasant conversation with him....
and then I'll remove myself from this thread...although it really is NOT your thread and everyone is behaving very nicely.

It really is my thread (in the sense that I started it, and did so for my purposes), and I am Synergist, but I am not sure I should be, or how that ultimately is worked out, and I don't want arguing about WHETHER OR NOT Monergism is true (there are UNLIMITED threads where that is the topic being argued), just to hear from Monergists to hopefully be edified.

 

[rwb]

It really is my thread (in the sense that I started it, and did so for my purposes), and I am Synergist, but I am not sure I should be, or how that ultimately is worked out, and I don't want arguing about WHETHER OR NOT Monergism is true (there are UNLIMITED threads where that is the topic being argued), just to hear from Monergists to hopefully be edified.

Greetings GracePeace,

The tension between the two beliefs is not real, but manufactured. The gift of eternal life is the work of God alone, but He has also ordained that we (Christians) are His workmen, created in Christ for good works. So you see monergism and synergism work together that the Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete. Once we have received faith to believe in Christ through the power of the Spirit in us, that faith becomes our faith. Even in those works of faith that believers are ordained to we have His promise to not abandon us, but also to work in us to both will and do of His good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 (KJV) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[KUWN]

I'm not the guy you're looking for.

If we use the definitions that Calvinists use for TULIP, I am happy to say I reject all 5 points.

 

[rwb]

Yes rwb.
I know what you mean.
Problem is that other denominations do not agree....
Paul did not agree...
No one agreed till Augustine in the 5th century.


Read the other 2 posts too....
but it's late here....
catch you in the morning.

Again, you continue to try to assign the biblical doctrines I espouse as coming from some man. The Sovereign grace doctrines are from the Bible, and it is through my study of the Bible that I've come to embrace the Sovereign grace of God. I know that some Christians do not believe these doctrines of God's grace, that's not my problem. I am called to proclaim what has been given to me as I've come to understand through the Word of God. And I am at peace with the doctrines of Scripture I have embraced as truth, because until I came to understand these doctrines I was tossed to and fro with every new wind of doctrine, fighting to resolve the many contradictions that many so-called biblical doctrines force into the Word of God. It is only in coming to understand the Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace that I found answers for all the seemingly contradictions I found.

Be blessed rwb

 

[KUWN]

Again, you continue to try to assign the biblical doctrines I espouse as coming from some man. The Sovereign grace doctrines are from the Bible, and it is through my study of the Bible that I've come to embrace the Sovereign grace of God. I know that some Christians do not believe these doctrines of God's grace, that's not my problem. I am called to proclaim what has been given to me as I've come to understand through the Word of God. And I am at peace with the doctrines of Scripture I have embraced as truth, because until I came to understand these doctrines I was tossed to and fro with every new wind of doctrine, fighting to resolve the many contradictions that many so-called biblical doctrines force into the Word of God. It is only in coming to understand the Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace that I found answers for all the seemingly contradictions I found.

Be blessed rwb

Why don't you list a few doctrines that were contradictions for you before you accepted the Sovereign Grace. I would be curious what stumped you. If you can, give the answer that Sovereign Grace gives that resolves the contradiction.

 

[Charlie24]

If we use the definitions that Calvinists use for TULIP, I am happy to say I reject all 5 points.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Fred J]

This is true! Every man knows, through all of creation of the Creator God NATURALLY! But mankind in unbelief has no knowledge or understanding of the Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. The knowledge of Christ unto salvation does not come NATURALLY but is SUPERNATURALLY given to whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God and through the power of the Spirit believes by grace through faith.

This i agree

 

[Fred J]

Fred, there is something you seem not to understand. God, through Jesus Christ 'OFFERS' the message about Christ (gospel) to all people without exception. Then through the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed, God, through His Holy Spirit, 'GIVES' eternal life to whosoever believes according to grace through faith imputed by the power of the Spirit.

So, you're saying GOD did everything and we as man on our own did nothing, cause GOD had us under a 'spell' and directed us with HIS voice to do everything in order to be saved.

To me GOD did HIS part in 'initiating' helping us study and understand HIS Word and message within in order to 'believe' and 'respond'.

Therefore is on our part whether we want to 'believe' and 'receive' it or not, because not all who heard and perceived the same Word and message, 'responded'.

This shows man on his own made the choice to 'believe' and to 'receive' or not, and not GOD made it for him.

That's why according to Romans chapter 1 itself they are without 'excuse', cause man chose not to 'believe' and 'receive', even HIS Word and message.

Hence, HE gave them up according to their own choice to continue after their 'flesh' and the 'world', and from them for one came homosexuals too.

It's absolutely wrong to say and acknowledge, 'That GOD made them that way since birth', when it's the result of man's choices and works.

 

[David Lamb]

I've learned over the years that the doctrines called T.U.L.I.P have been credited to John Calvin. I know what each letter of the acronym means, but I did not learn this studying the works of John Calvin. I learned the truths of the acronym through my study of Scripture. It has not been my experience having been in Reformed Churches that follow Calvin more than the Bible. That's really too bad, because it causes the doctrines of Sovereign grace to be vilified by those who believe John Calvin promotes heresy. I agree, where would one find any comfort in posting the works of John Calvin when we have this wonderful book called the Bible that teaches us through His Spirit all that we need as we live in Him in this world

I agree. I had not even heard of John Calvin or the "TULIP" acronym when I believed the doctrines of grace. I believed them and still do believe them, because I find them in the bible. When you look at the Confessions of Faith of those who hold to the doctrines of grace, such as the Westminster Confession and the London Baptist Confession of Faith, you find that every statement made is backed up with bible references.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, you continue to try to assign the biblical doctrines I espouse as coming from some man. The Sovereign grace doctrines are from the Bible, and it is through my study of the Bible that I've come to embrace the Sovereign grace of God. I know that some Christians do not believe these doctrines of God's grace, that's not my problem. I am called to proclaim what has been given to me as I've come to understand through the Word of God. And I am at peace with the doctrines of Scripture I have embraced as truth, because until I came to understand these doctrines I was tossed to and fro with every new wind of doctrine, fighting to resolve the many contradictions that many so-called biblical doctrines force into the Word of God. It is only in coming to understand the Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace that I found answers for all the seemingly contradictions I found.

Be blessed rwb

It's difficult to understand how the bible could simply be read and the person comes up with reformed theology.
What DOES seem to be understandable is that man sins, God loves man and has died for him and that we can be saved if we want to be saved - and the NT explains how.

In point of fact,,,the word SOVEREIGN never appears in the NT.
You say that through the REFORMED DOCTRINES of sovereign grace you've come to some peace.
So since you use the wording of reformed doctrine, can we say that we DO learn from denominations?
I've learned from 3 different denominations...all agreed in the basics of Christian theology BTW.
Does this forego the fact that they agree with the bible?

No Christian should be tossed to and fro.
Every denomination that is mainline believes the tenets of the Christian religion.
And if you really want to know what the church taught for 2 thousand years, a simple study of church history would clear this up for you. But, alas, we prefer to learn from some that came recently.

I'm not going back to see what I stated that brought about the above post since I replied to you using the bible. I don't have much time here.

Will go to your other posts and the above is only in way of clarification of whatever statement I might have made.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, you continue to try to assign the biblical doctrines I espouse as coming from some man. The Sovereign grace doctrines are from the Bible, and it is through my study of the Bible that I've come to embrace the Sovereign grace of God. I know that some Christians do not believe these doctrines of God's grace, that's not my problem. I am called to proclaim what has been given to me as I've come to understand through the Word of God. And I am at peace with the doctrines of Scripture I have embraced as truth, because until I came to understand these doctrines I was tossed to and fro with every new wind of doctrine, fighting to resolve the many contradictions that many so-called biblical doctrines force into the Word of God. It is only in coming to understand the Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace that I found answers for all the seemingly contradictions I found.

Be blessed rwb

Oh. I had mentioned Augustine.
A 5th century Catholic Doctor of the Church who had been a gnostic manechaen for 10 years before deciding to become Catholic and bringing with him some of his gnostic views.

This is not interesting to you?
It is §Augustine that Calvin so loved and bvased many of his doctrines on.
He based them ON AUGUSTINE.....
then used the bible to TRY to align the belief system.

This is why Calvinism has so many conflicts within it.
It is not based on the NT.

It's based on §Augustine's belief that
1. Man has no free will
2. Man is depraved and unable to seek God.

WHY did §Augustine believe this?
It's an interesting story and a simple one.
But you're not interested.

Items 1 and 2 were NEVER taught in the church before him, and in fact,
the CC does not hold to these beliefs. It believes man DOES have free will
and that man can seek God.

§As the bible confirms.

 

[GodsGrace]

It really is my thread (in the sense that I started it, and did so for my purposes), and I am Synergist, but I am not sure I should be, or how that ultimately is worked out, and I don't want arguing about WHETHER OR NOT Monergism is true (there are UNLIMITED threads where that is the topic being argued), just to hear from Monergists to hopefully be edified.

I'm afraid that's what you're going to get...
Discussion on monergism.
But I'll leave it up to you to figure it out.

As long as monergism is being discussed,,,the posts will not be off topic so how you control that - I don't know. The mods will figure it out.

I'm not on many threads.
And how hearing from monergists will edify you...a synergist...I do not know.
But, again, not for me to figure out.

Seems to me that YOU should be upholding what the NT teaches...
But, again, not my problem here.

If everyone is behaving properly and the topic is being discussed....
there really should be no problem.

However, I will remove myself, as stated, as soon as my convo with rwb is finished.
(I don't go on forever as some do).

 

[rwb]

Why don't you list a few doctrines that were contradictions for you before you accepted the Sovereign Grace. I would be curious what stumped you. If you can, give the answer that Sovereign Grace gives that resolves the contradiction.

The desire of the OP was to keep the thread positive; I will try to show why I believe the doctrines of Sovereign Grace perfectly align with what the Bible tells us. Unfortunately, I only have a short amount of time this morning and will not be able to be on the boards for the next few days. Sorry.

Why I believe the Bible tells us that man, after the fall became totally depraved rather than only marred by sin and still retaining the ability to freely choose to turn to Christ if they desire to.

Man created in the likeness and image of God and freely given the choice to obey God and live forever or disobey God and die. Since the fall man, no longer has the choice to freely choose God for eternal life (1) because the way to the tree of life was blocked and man was no longer able to freely choose eternal life. And (2) the likeness and image of God that man was created with became the likeness and image of our natural father Adam. Just as Seth being born to A&E after the fall had the likeness and image of his natural father, so too does the whole human race that also come from Adam.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

This is why man must be born again to again be made in the likeness and image of Christ that we might have eternal life through Him. Since God placed guards before the tree of life, in our natural state man is no longer able to freely take of the fruit of the tree to live forever. Man can only partake of eternal life through Christ's Holy Spirit, and that not according to the will of man but through the will of God.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I apologize, but I have run out of time this morning. It is my hope and desire to return to this discussion after a few days.

Many blessings rwb

 

[GodsGrace]

I've learned over the years that the doctrines called T.U.L.I.P have been credited to John Calvin. I know what each letter of the acronym means, but I did not learn this studying the works of John Calvin. I learned the truths of the acronym through my study of Scripture.

I've already replied to this at at least twice.
Will not repeat.

It has not been my experience having been in Reformed Churches that follow Calvin more than the Bible. That's really too bad, because it causes the doctrines of Sovereign grace to be vilified by those who believe John Calvin promotes heresy.

Calvinism is heretical.
Do you know what heretical means?
Many do not.

It just means any teaching that is different from the main tenets of Christianity.
For instance, teaching that Jesus is not §God is heretical.
How do we know the main tenets of Christianity?
They've been taught from the beginning.

If this is not so,,,then the JW have the full right to call themselves Christian....
and Christianity can no longer be defined.

I agree, where would one find any comfort in posting the works of John Calvin when we have this wonderful book called the Bible that teaches us through His Spirit all that we need as we live in Him in this world



Yes, there are verses that appear to teach there shall be varying rewards in heaven. It is my belief that the greatest and only reward we should seek for is Christ for He tells us as He tells Abram:

I agree.

Genesis 15:1 (KJV) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Hebrews 10:35-36 (KJV) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Actually, rwb, the promise is eternal life.
NOT a reward.
There's a difference, no?

I quoted the verses that apply. Abraham only believed God because he heard the gospel of Christ preached to him by God. And through that good word preached, faith came to Abraham by hearing God, and believing the same way every man in darkness and unbelief do, through the power of God.

WHEN did Abraham HEAR the gospel of Christ preached to him?

We cannot be saved by our faith before we have faith by grace that is the work of God.

Yes sir.
Common Calvinist statement.
You say we must have FAITH FIRST
BEFORE
we have faith.

So, since having faith means we are born again, what you're saying is that
we must be born again before we can be born again.

Please post some verses that state this...
you won't find any.

IF I already HAVE FAITH....
why do I still need faith?

So many conflicts which do NOT EXIST in the bible you've read.

We are called to work out our salvation, not to work for our salvation.

Work out your salvation means that we are to work on our salvation...
to pay heed to how we live...
to give attention to what God wants from us.
To follow His direction.

You see,,,it does NOT happen automatically....
Paul teaches us HOW to work out our salvation.
YOU believe God does this automatically...
so then why do we need instruction??

Work FOR our salvation?
Why is this always conflated?
WHO believes that we can work FOR our salvation?
I don't know ANY Christian who believes we can work for our salvation.
Why bring up this strawman??

And even that faith, after salvation our own, comes from being created unto good works that believers have been ordained to walk in, for it is God through His Spirit working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure.

Agreed.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Agreed.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Agreed.
The Holy Spirit works in us as our HELPER, as Jesus called Him.

As our HELPER.

Do you believe Phil 2:13 means that God CAUSES us to do His pleasure?
If so,,,then when we sin we're going to have to blame God for NOT destinating us to do His pleasure in that instance of sin.

So is God responsible for our sinning?
Does God then advocate sinning?


So many conflicts.

If God desires all mankind to be saved, then all mankind would be saved and none of them forever lost. When Paul said these words, he was speaking of those we should pray for. All men in this instance speaks of even those who have authority over us, because God is the Saviour of them too IF they believe in Him. And some of them may become saved when we intercede on their behalf, and this we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Interesting.
So now you're allowed to actually change the words of Paul...not just twist them around.

NO..Paul did NOT say what you stated above.

THIS is what Paul stated:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


We are NOT allowed to change the very words of the NT.
There's a warning about this in Revelation.

This is a problem for Calvinism....
Why?

Because since Paul made this statement,,,,
it can only mean 2 things for Calvinism, which I've already stated.

1. Paul is lying.
2. God is unable to save everyone.

For every other belief system this is no problem because of man's free will.
A person must use their free will to ACCEPT God's plan of salvation.
It is NOT up to God alone.....and thus the problem Calvinists have with Paul's declaration is not present in the rest of Christian theology.

Remove man's free will...
and you now have another conflict in scripture.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 (KJV) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. As Christians we are held to a very high standard of living. Because the world watches believers, and when we are selfish and show no desire to help those less fortunate and fail to tell the story of Jesus, the gospel of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God in heaven suffers because it shall be made complete through believers who are left here for that very reason. Our prayer must always be "Come Lord Jesus, come", but He will not return before His Kingdom in heaven is complete through the power of His Word and Spirit displayed through believers.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes they did! The only thing they did not know is that He would be called by the name Jesus.

Luke 2:21 (KJV) And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

The angel Gabriel made known the name Jesus to Mary.
This is what Luke 2:21 is referring to.

The OT prophets were looking forward to the MESSIAH...
NOT
To God becoming flesh.

Only as we look back now do we see the Son of God/Man in the OT.

The Old Covenant body had heard the gospel just as Abraham had, but it was through the Law and Prophets that foretell of the Messiah Saviour who was to come to save.

Romans 10:16-21 (KJV) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

This is about salvation being applied to Gentiles,,,

And notice that you yourself have provided scripture that states that
salvation comes by hearing the word of God
not
by God choosing who will be saved.

Which will cause, again, another conflict
because
It would make God a respector of persons and the NT teaches that He is not and gives to everyone the opportunity to become saved.
John 3:16

Every human is born having a measure of faith. Faith is defined as that which we believe. The faith in fallen man is natural, we have faith in many things, people, places etc and in our own works. But faith that comes from above is supernatural because it does not originate within us, but from the power of God, through the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us before faith in Christ came we were kept under the law, whatever the law said that is what we were bound by. But when Christ came the faith in Him became known, and the law that was our teacher brought us to Christ that we might be justified (declared righteous) by faith.

Galatians 3:23-24 (KJV) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

This is off topic and I won't respond. (regarding the Law).
But a measure of faith does not mean what you think it does.
It just means that God gives to each of us a measure of faith...
TO EACH OF US...believers...in order to carry out our purpose

Romans 12:1-3
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.


Please notice that the MEASURE OF FAITH has been allotted to each that are BRETHREN....to those that are ALREADY saved.....
NOT
the unsaved as you've stated.
Every human is NOT born with a measure of faith.

§That would make every human born saved since Jesus stated that we just need the faith of a mustard seed.

 

[GodsGrace]

The desire of the OP was to keep the thread positive; I will try to show why I believe the doctrines of Sovereign Grace perfectly align with what the Bible tells us. Unfortunately, I only have a short amount of time this morning and will not be able to be on the boards for the next few days. Sorry.

Why I believe the Bible tells us that man, after the fall became totally depraved rather than only marred by sin and still retaining the ability to freely choose to turn to Christ if they desire t0

Man created in the likeness and image of God and freely given the choice to obey God and live forever or disobey God and die. Since the fall man, no longer has the choice to freely choose God for eternal life (1) because the way to the tree of life was blocked and man was no longer able to freely choose eternal life. And (2) the likeness and image of God that man was created with became the likeness and image of our natural father Adam. Just as Seth being born to A&E after the fall had the likeness and image of his natural father, so too does the whole human race that also come from Adam.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

This is why man must be born again to again be made in the likeness and image of Christ that we might have eternal life through Him. Since God placed guards before the tree of life, in our natural state man is no longer able to freely take of the fruit of the tree to live forever. Man can only partake of eternal life through Christ's Holy Spirit, and that not according to the will of man but through the will of God.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I apologize, but I have run out of time this morning. It is my hope and desire to return to this discussion after a few days.

Many blessings rwb

I'll leave it up to @KUWN to show you that man IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD and that
Calvinism will, once again, be proven to be wrong in all 5 points.

 

[GodsGrace]

The desire of the OP was to keep the thread positive; I will try to show why I believe the doctrines of Sovereign Grace perfectly align with what the Bible tells us. Unfortunately, I only have a short amount of time this morning and will not be able to be on the boards for the next few days. Sorry.

Why I believe the Bible tells us that man, after the fall became totally depraved rather than only marred by sin and still retaining the ability to freely choose to turn to Christ if they desire to.

Man created in the likeness and image of God and freely given the choice to obey God and live forever or disobey God and die. Since the fall man, no longer has the choice to freely choose God for eternal life (1) because the way to the tree of life was blocked and man was no longer able to freely choose eternal life. And (2) the likeness and image of God that man was created with became the likeness and image of our natural father Adam. Just as Seth being born to A&E after the fall had the likeness and image of his natural father, so too does the whole human race that also come from Adam.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

This is why man must be born again to again be made in the likeness and image of Christ that we might have eternal life through Him. Since God placed guards before the tree of life, in our natural state man is no longer able to freely take of the fruit of the tree to live forever. Man can only partake of eternal life through Christ's Holy Spirit, and that not according to the will of man but through the will of God.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him,

There goes the fact that we must RECEIVE....
You keep bringing up scripture that works against you.

You do like to ignore scripture.

Have a nice time off.

to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I apologize, but I have run out of time this morning. It is my hope and desire to return to this discussion after a few days.

Many blessings rwb

 

[GracePeace]

The desire of the OP was to keep the thread positive; I will try to show why I believe the doctrines of Sovereign Grace perfectly align with what the Bible tells us. Unfortunately, I only have a short amount of time this morning and will not be able to be on the boards for the next few days. Sorry.

Why I believe the Bible tells us that man, after the fall became totally depraved rather than only marred by sin and still retaining the ability to freely choose to turn to Christ if they desire to.

Man created in the likeness and image of God and freely given the choice to obey God and live forever or disobey God and die. Since the fall man, no longer has the choice to freely choose God for eternal life (1) because the way to the tree of life was blocked and man was no longer able to freely choose eternal life. And (2) the likeness and image of God that man was created with became the likeness and image of our natural father Adam. Just as Seth being born to A&E after the fall had the likeness and image of his natural father, so too does the whole human race that also come from Adam.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

This is why man must be born again to again be made in the likeness and image of Christ that we might have eternal life through Him. Since God placed guards before the tree of life, in our natural state man is no longer able to freely take of the fruit of the tree to live forever. Man can only partake of eternal life through Christ's Holy Spirit, and that not according to the will of man but through the will of God.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I apologize, but I have run out of time this morning. It is my hope and desire to return to this discussion after a few days.

Many blessings rwb

Thanks for sharing.
I guess you're laying the groundwork for Monergism?

 

[Lambano]

Are you Monergist?

Oh, good heavens, no. I was more interested in hearing what attracts you to this theology and what you think the practical applications are.