hey guys! this is a theory i've been presenting to skeptics & atheists to challenged their view if god exists. i bring it here to encourage people to share it amoung them as well. it may not be good enough, but it might help them to be more open towards the possibility that god exist. but first off, let me stress that i don't need this theory to believe in god, nor do i encourage it to anyone to believe, but if you feel that it does help you in your test of faith, then amen. it's only something i wanted to do to challenge a skeptic's way of thinking. it is not something i encourage people to believe by, because i believe that everyone should find god in their own way. i don't really like the idea of proving god with logic, as scriptures say, blessed are those who believe without seeing. i believe it should only be applied to test truth in other people's thinking, in this case, skeptics. so this is something i have been working on for a while to help skeptics to become more open-minded. it's probably flawed in alot of ways, so maybe you can help correct it or add to it.when skeptics usually ask if god is real? they obviously want proof. it either comes down to the following statemetent:'well jesus did say he was the son of god and the way to god in the bible, but was jesus real or was he just a myth?'in order to prove this, we can use jesus. i came to learn of god through jesus. if jesus really is the son of god like the bible says, and everything he taught about god was real, then that means we all can come to god, because jesus said no one can come to god except through him. questions would surely rise from this statement:1. was jesus' message valid? can we really come to god through him?2. wait, did this dude even exist to begin with?question 2 is the best question to begin with. in order to answer question 1, i wanted to see if jesus existed in the first place. now the new testament is a good source to that, but obviously skeptics would say, 'well you can't use the bible as proof, there's really no proof that the apostles did write that, there's no proof of who wrote it at all, i could say it just comes down to your word againts mine', which is a good point, and they do say that, and they will even go to the point of saying it's corrupted or forge *LOL* which some of said many times. it is obviously a far-fetched opinion, but surely one to consider nevertheless. so i decided to find external sources and historical documents other than the bible itself to see if there was any other proof that jesus existed. and fortunately enough there was:- the writings of Philo- the writings of Josephushowever, some of the writings of joesphus regarding jesus have been disputed and some of philo's writings are arguble as well. therefore, none of these works are not sufficient enough. there are lots more sources i have from pagan sources, historic sources, and jewish sources, but can be easily disputed by these free-thinkers *lol*. regardless, i was still lost and at a stomp. then it hit me! the apostles. bingo!let me introduce you to the apostles/jesus equation:if you were to subtract the apostles from jesus' ministry, there would be no churches that would of spread from israel, antioch, all across asia minor, greece, egpyt, assyria, to rome. as a matter of fact, it was because of the apostles that jesus' ministry spread all over the roman empire in the 1st century to the 4th century. at this point, christianity became an accepted and tolerated religion, and this is important to understand, because during the first 4 centuries, the roman empire's mission was to convert or to kill all the christians. it's been reported that thousands of christians were murdered within that period. i was amazed how 13 men, including paul, could revolutionize the face of the roman empire with a new teaching. these men virtually took on all of the roman empire and won, with the help of others of course. if their messages never made it to the 3rd century, then empreror constintine may not have made christianity an accepted religion, and it is widely believed, that after the 4th century when christianity became an accepted religion, is the reason we got their writings today. can you just imagine if the apostles' mission had failed? what would the world's view on religion be like today? would we be worshiping the sun or the moon? would we be greeting another in the name of apollo? would we be even born? how would reglion change in today's era if the apostles failed? the thoughts are mind-blowing, and this is why it is believed that jesus selected them, which i agree. i seriously don't think jesus did this out of random. if jesus needed his message to spread, the most logical thing to do would be to gather people to help spread his message, which he did. so the question i was asking now is, are there any sources other than the bible to prove the apostles existed? yes there were, alot of them too:- writings of polycarp - pupil of john- writings of Ignatius - pupil of john- Theudas - (believed to be a student of paul) alot of christian scholars have doubted his works and his image which there is good reason to, but there is doubt he saw paul and lived to testify about him.- writings of josephus - he did make reference of john the baptist in his works and that reference has not been disputed. there's good reason to believe josephus did see john baptizing his followers. yes, john wasn't one of the apostles, however, i think we can still use this as a credible source.out of all the external sources i have found, these are the only undisputed sources that stand. it is clear that these sources are authentic and not forge in any way, or raise any matter of debate. there are tons more sources, but i know skeptics can easily counter them, so for the sake of the argument, i have left them out. but these sources that i have shown can't be countered, and historians agree to this. and these sources testify that not only the apostles existed, but they indeed wrote the new testament. however, these skeptics would argue, 'well, this can prove that the apostles existed & wrote the bible, but that doesn't mean it proves that jesus existed', which is fair to say. they could also argue, 'well, most of these sources are from christians, so obviously they would say anything to give christianity credit. how do you know they weren't lying or it was a cover-up?' LOL! another far-reached opinion, but still we should take it into consideration because some extreme atheists today think christianity is based on a cover-up and i have run into alot of them that say that. so let's dive into both those questions and see if there are any flaws to them:1. how does proof of the apostles' existance prove jesus existed as well?- if jesus didn't exist, then i find it very illogical that the apostles would travel all over the roman empire just to teach the world about him.- if jesus didn't exist, then i find it very hard to believe that the apostles would be willing to die just to preach about jesus, which they did.- if jesus didn't exist, i find it very hard to believe that the apostles were willing to give all their possesions away to the new followers of their faith in Jesus- if jesus didn't exist, i find it very illocial that the apostles would make up all these lies about him, since they were cleary followers of torah as well(thou shell not lie)- but if jesus did exist, then it makes sense why the apostles did all the above, except for lying of course.2. how truthful are these christians, any cover-ups going on?- again, applying the same logic - these men, too, went to great lengths just to travel the roman empire to spread the message. if it was a cover-up, they sure put a whole lot on the line for nothing- these men were very peacful, giving and always gave away their possesions to help other churches. no stealing or gambling there. that's the first cover-up i've heard of with that motive.- all these men were killed in martyrdom, so i find it very illogical for them to die for a cover-up when they could of just said, 'hail ceaser!' to save their life. as a matter of fact, hundereds were reported of being killed in the 1st century for believing in christ. surely these christian leaders wouldn't go to that extreme lengths getting other people killed in the process.- they, too, were followers of torah, i can't see them lying about about any of this.- but i do find it logical that they did all these things to help jesus' ministry to spread throughout the roman empire, even to the point of martyrdomQ.2 is now answered: JESUS EXISTED!now for question 1: was his message valid? is he the real messiah? Again, even if you could prove to skeptics that jesus lived, that doesn't mean they'll believe he was the messiah. they could argue that since the jews don't consider him as the messiah it still leaves him in doubt, which is very fair to say. but there is a logic here you can use too. if jesus' message wasn't valid, that would mean he wasn't the messiah right? if he wasn't the messiah, that would mean he didn't ressurect from the dead right? prophecies from both new & old testament were to predict his death and his ressurection. so the question here is, if jesus didn't ressurect from the dead? how do we explain the apostles preaching of his ressurection? did they fake his ressurection? this can be answered with logic again:if the apostles knew that jesus did not ressurect from the dead, then they would of concluded he was not the messiah, if that's true, then why did they go through all that trouble to travel all over the roman empire 1000's of miles just to spread his message right to the point of getting killed. it clearly doesn't add up.there is no reason why the apostles would fake jesus' resurrection just to get themselves killed and thousands of others in the process. the most logical answer is, jesus did rise from the dead and his apostles were witnesses to that, so they preached his ministry all over the roman empire to the point of martyrdom which jesus clearly told them to do. he is the messiah...Q.1 is now answered - HIS MESSAGE IS VALID!if you feel that if i have any flaws in here, i would accept correction. i've told a few sketpics this, and they've never replied back with their great free-thinking and rationalized answer lol. i can only imagine why. but they do have their beliefs, and i have to been willing to accept that.god bless
Jesus Christ challenges skeptics/atheists
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It looks as though you have good strong reasonings for our belief. I really enjoyed reading it. Thank you for posting it.
Don't forget the dead sea scrolls proving that the NT (and Old Testament?) have not been corrupted.
They found like 9-90k scrolls I think. Something like that.
One of the weird things that I have noticed is that Atheists tend to think Christians are so stupid, that they can't answer their questions -- oh come on now, thats just crass XD. Look at the video below --- its basically an Atheistic video meant to make Christians mad.10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ1. One thing I noticed, automatically, about this video is well -- the arrogance. This guy has the gall to assume that Christians cannot answer these questions. He ASSUMES the Christians have never pondered this stuff before. 2. I also noticed laziness. If this guy really wanted to find out the answers to these questions, he would have visited some of my sources. Heck, Christiananswers.net has the answer to most if not all of these questions. However it is obvious that he did NO research.3. Mono-Theism (Christianity in particular) is shown no respect. You know, last time I checked, you have to show people respect if they are going to consider your point of view. That simply is not the case here. Its just a total disrespect-a-thon.You know, I have to admit, Christians really don't care much about Atheism. Maybe it is because we know who our Father is, and so we just know that Atheism is not true. Because, why am I possessed by the Holy Spirit -- if he doesn't exist. I mean, what happened to me when I got saved if the Holy Spirit is not with me?But man do they care about us --- they are on are case all the time. Its just ridiculous. It seems like we could politely agree to disagree and just let ourselves believe what we want.
(RaddSpencer;46346)
One of the weird things that I have noticed is that Atheists tend to think Christians are so stupid, that they can't answer their questions -- oh come on now, thats just crass XD. Look at the video below --- its basically an Atheistic video meant to make Christians mad.10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ1. One thing I noticed, automatically, about this video is well -- the arrogance. This guy has the gall to assume that Christians cannot answer these questions. He ASSUMES the Christians have never pondered this stuff before. 2. I also noticed laziness. If this guy really wanted to find out the answers to these questions, he would have visited some of my sources. Heck, Christiananswers.net has the answer to most if not all of these questions. However it is obvious that he did NO research.3. Mono-Theism (Christianity in particular) is shown no respect. You know, last time I checked, you have to show people respect if they are going to consider your point of view. That simply is not the case here. Its just a total disrespect-a-thon.You know, I have to admit, Christians really don't care much about Atheism. Maybe it is because we know who our Father is, and so we just know that Atheism is not true. Because, why am I possessed by the Holy Spirit -- if he doesn't exist. I mean, what happened to me when I got saved if the Holy Spirit is not with me?But man do they care about us --- they are on are case all the time. Its just ridiculous. It seems like we could politely agree to disagree and just let ourselves believe what we want.
God can heal amputees. Jesus healed the Roman soldier who had his ear cut off!
One of the weird things that I have noticed is that Atheists tend to think Christians are so stupid, that they can't answer their questions -- oh come on now, thats just crass XD. Look at the video below --- its basically an Atheistic video meant to make Christians mad.10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ1. One thing I noticed, automatically, about this video is well -- the arrogance. This guy has the gall to assume that Christians cannot answer these questions. He ASSUMES the Christians have never pondered this stuff before. 2. I also noticed laziness. If this guy really wanted to find out the answers to these questions, he would have visited some of my sources. Heck, Christiananswers.net has the answer to most if not all of these questions. However it is obvious that he did NO research.3. Mono-Theism (Christianity in particular) is shown no respect. You know, last time I checked, you have to show people respect if they are going to consider your point of view. That simply is not the case here. Its just a total disrespect-a-thon.You know, I have to admit, Christians really don't care much about Atheism. Maybe it is because we know who our Father is, and so we just know that Atheism is not true. Because, why am I possessed by the Holy Spirit -- if he doesn't exist. I mean, what happened to me when I got saved if the Holy Spirit is not with me?But man do they care about us --- they are on are case all the time. Its just ridiculous. It seems like we could politely agree to disagree and just let ourselves believe what we want.
God can heal amputees. Jesus healed the Roman soldier who had his ear cut off!
(Wakka;46322)
Don't forget the dead sea scrolls proving that the NT (and Old Testament?) have not been corrupted.
They found like 9-90k scrolls I think. Something like that.
i think you misunderstand the theory. yes, the dead-sea scrolls are sources, but they ain't sources that prove that jesus existed or prove that the apostles existed or prove that the apostles wrote the new testament. athesists will argue, which they always do, that the dead sea-scrolls could have just been copied from the new testament by an average joe, which is obviously a far-fetched opinion, but nevertheless, a point to consider. and although they have no proof to that which we can argue, we still have to consider their point. this is how they think in terms of logic. but we too can apply their same pattern of thinking not only to prove that the apostles existed, but also prove that the apostles wrote the new testament as well. this is why i stress the works of polycarp, Ignatius, theudus and some of josephus' works regarding john the baptist and james the apostle. these sources cannot be denied and refuted. not only do they prove that the apostles existed, but they also prove that they apostles wrote the new testament as well. so if atheists will go on to argue that those works too are copied, flawed or even to say that those people, polycarp for that matter, did not exists, then it just proves a flaw in their thinking - illogic and unreasonable. according to their pattern of thinking, they have to find the most locial and reasonble explanation. and this theory puts a big hole in it, and this is why i feel they never reply back to this theory, because they can't find any logical answer to it. i hope everyone understands the theory now, i do apologize for the format i presented it in. it is really hard to grasp at first, but if you cafefully go over it a few times, you will see the whole point of it.
Don't forget the dead sea scrolls proving that the NT (and Old Testament?) have not been corrupted.
i think you misunderstand the theory. yes, the dead-sea scrolls are sources, but they ain't sources that prove that jesus existed or prove that the apostles existed or prove that the apostles wrote the new testament. athesists will argue, which they always do, that the dead sea-scrolls could have just been copied from the new testament by an average joe, which is obviously a far-fetched opinion, but nevertheless, a point to consider. and although they have no proof to that which we can argue, we still have to consider their point. this is how they think in terms of logic. but we too can apply their same pattern of thinking not only to prove that the apostles existed, but also prove that the apostles wrote the new testament as well. this is why i stress the works of polycarp, Ignatius, theudus and some of josephus' works regarding john the baptist and james the apostle. these sources cannot be denied and refuted. not only do they prove that the apostles existed, but they also prove that they apostles wrote the new testament as well. so if atheists will go on to argue that those works too are copied, flawed or even to say that those people, polycarp for that matter, did not exists, then it just proves a flaw in their thinking - illogic and unreasonable. according to their pattern of thinking, they have to find the most locial and reasonble explanation. and this theory puts a big hole in it, and this is why i feel they never reply back to this theory, because they can't find any logical answer to it. i hope everyone understands the theory now, i do apologize for the format i presented it in. it is really hard to grasp at first, but if you cafefully go over it a few times, you will see the whole point of it.
sorry guys i'm not the best explainer in writings. i get do get inconsiderate somethings. so you if you feel that there is anything you don't understand or find hard to grasp with, plz dont hestitate ask. sometimes i forget i don't explain myself properly & i admit myself, i am not bright. so if you have any questions regarding my post, dont hestitate to ask. but this theory can debunk alot of skeptics' views, so i encourage alot of people to use it.
(RaddSpencer;46346)
One of the weird things that I have noticed is that Atheists tend to think Christians are so stupid, that they can't answer their questions -- oh come on now, thats just crass XD. Look at the video below --- its basically an Atheistic video meant to make Christians mad.10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ1. One thing I noticed, automatically, about this video is well -- the arrogance. This guy has the gall to assume that Christians cannot answer these questions. He ASSUMES the Christians have never pondered this stuff before. 2. I also noticed laziness. If this guy really wanted to find out the answers to these questions, he would have visited some of my sources. Heck, Christiananswers.net has the answer to most if not all of these questions. However it is obvious that he did NO research.3. Mono-Theism (Christianity in particular) is shown no respect. You know, last time I checked, you have to show people respect if they are going to consider your point of view. That simply is not the case here. Its just a total disrespect-a-thon.You know, I have to admit, Christians really don't care much about Atheism. Maybe it is because we know who our Father is, and so we just know that Atheism is not true. Because, why am I possessed by the Holy Spirit -- if he doesn't exist. I mean, what happened to me when I got saved if the Holy Spirit is not with me?But man do they care about us --- they are on are case all the time. Its just ridiculous. It seems like we could politely agree to disagree and just let ourselves believe what we want.
Side issue: I have NEVER encountered an atheist who, when speaking with a creationist or christian, has not personally attacked them or ridiculed them in some way. I see this most frequently in debates between the two.
One of the weird things that I have noticed is that Atheists tend to think Christians are so stupid, that they can't answer their questions -- oh come on now, thats just crass XD. Look at the video below --- its basically an Atheistic video meant to make Christians mad.10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ1. One thing I noticed, automatically, about this video is well -- the arrogance. This guy has the gall to assume that Christians cannot answer these questions. He ASSUMES the Christians have never pondered this stuff before. 2. I also noticed laziness. If this guy really wanted to find out the answers to these questions, he would have visited some of my sources. Heck, Christiananswers.net has the answer to most if not all of these questions. However it is obvious that he did NO research.3. Mono-Theism (Christianity in particular) is shown no respect. You know, last time I checked, you have to show people respect if they are going to consider your point of view. That simply is not the case here. Its just a total disrespect-a-thon.You know, I have to admit, Christians really don't care much about Atheism. Maybe it is because we know who our Father is, and so we just know that Atheism is not true. Because, why am I possessed by the Holy Spirit -- if he doesn't exist. I mean, what happened to me when I got saved if the Holy Spirit is not with me?But man do they care about us --- they are on are case all the time. Its just ridiculous. It seems like we could politely agree to disagree and just let ourselves believe what we want.
Side issue: I have NEVER encountered an atheist who, when speaking with a creationist or christian, has not personally attacked them or ridiculed them in some way. I see this most frequently in debates between the two.
i've just ruled out Theudas as a source. in my research, i can't find any other sources that validate he was one of paul's pupils. according to 1st & 2nd century christian leaders, it seems like this Valentinus guy was such a great heretic, it could be possible he made the whole thing up. but even though there's no proof of that, i've ruled it out for the sake of the argument.so far the credible sources are:-writings of ignatius- writings of polycarp- and the writings of josephus; there is no doubt he saw christ, james and john baptist. i'm in complete agreement with that now. whether or not he believed in jesus is not an issue that most skeptics make it out to be. contrary to what you may hear, most skeptics have gone right to the point of debunking his writings based on assumptions made by historians, which even themselves admit. funny how they so badly want to debunk those writings of jesus, but not debunk his other writings regarding the jewish revolt wars and other jewish Antiquities. and they call themselves skeptics lol what a sad world we live in.
Yeah, great reasoning Truth_seekerbut if theres one thing Ive learned it is this, you cannot argue an atheist to God. It doesn't work, they already have seen the undeniable truth of God through his creation. But they are blind to the truth.God has to show himself to them. The best method is not argue Christianity with them, but to be Christianity to them. Be kind, loving, generous ect.ect. ect.Show Christ to them through you. now just to show you how much I believe in what i just taught I'm going to share your points with one of my atheist friends
(Letsgofishing;46583)
Yeah, great reasoning Truth_seeker
excellent point. and it should be noted for the record that these are just reasons, and opinions, not proof of jesus existence or proof he is the messiah, just good reasons. however, these sources are proof that the apostles did exist.(Letsgofishing;46583)
but if theres one thing Ive learned it is this, you cannot argue an atheist to God. It doesn't work, they already have seen the undeniable truth of God through his creation. But they are blind to the truth.God has to show himself to them. The best method is not argue Christianity with them, but to be Christianity to them. Be kind, loving, generous ect.ect. ect.Show Christ to them through you.
agreed
Yeah, great reasoning Truth_seeker
excellent point. and it should be noted for the record that these are just reasons, and opinions, not proof of jesus existence or proof he is the messiah, just good reasons. however, these sources are proof that the apostles did exist.(Letsgofishing;46583)
but if theres one thing Ive learned it is this, you cannot argue an atheist to God. It doesn't work, they already have seen the undeniable truth of God through his creation. But they are blind to the truth.God has to show himself to them. The best method is not argue Christianity with them, but to be Christianity to them. Be kind, loving, generous ect.ect. ect.Show Christ to them through you.
agreed
(Letsgofishing;46583)
Yeah, great reasoning Truth_seekerbut if theres one thing Ive learned it is this, you cannot argue an atheist to God. It doesn't work, they already have seen the undeniable truth of God through his creation. But they are blind to the truth.God has to show himself to them. The best method is not argue Christianity with them, but to be Christianity to them. Be kind, loving, generous ect.ect. ect.Show Christ to them through you. now just to show you how much I believe in what i just taught I'm going to share your points with one of my atheist friends
That is definitely true. Just look at this guy:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwMHe has already made up his mind (and because he is older, he is set in his ways). Some of his videos are interesting, and some of them are just juvenile (in other words its meant to inflame). Also, some of his facts are not quite right. And he has a rather unusual attitude towards God. IE, he has a problem with a God that hold people accountable for their actions.
Yeah, great reasoning Truth_seekerbut if theres one thing Ive learned it is this, you cannot argue an atheist to God. It doesn't work, they already have seen the undeniable truth of God through his creation. But they are blind to the truth.God has to show himself to them. The best method is not argue Christianity with them, but to be Christianity to them. Be kind, loving, generous ect.ect. ect.Show Christ to them through you. now just to show you how much I believe in what i just taught I'm going to share your points with one of my atheist friends
That is definitely true. Just look at this guy:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwMHe has already made up his mind (and because he is older, he is set in his ways). Some of his videos are interesting, and some of them are just juvenile (in other words its meant to inflame). Also, some of his facts are not quite right. And he has a rather unusual attitude towards God. IE, he has a problem with a God that hold people accountable for their actions.
i've got another source. this one looks like a strong one too. Clement of Rome(A.D. c. 30-100), also known as Saint Clement I or Pope Clement I, believed to be the same Clement referred to in Phillipians 4:3. he has made some extensive writings called the First Epistle of Clement or 1 Clement. it's considered the oldest christian writing outside the new testament. he also has another epistle as well, Second Epistle of Clement.here's a link if you're interested:link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_I#Writingsit is a wiki link, but the sources are listed at the bottom of the page.another linkhttp://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchi...nt-of-rome.html
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