Pretty sure that God is not simple, but His word is. The whole point of scripture is to reveal Him, not to hide Him.
The entrance of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:130
Last edited:
Jesus IS God in the flesh!!
- Thread starter GISMYS_7
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The entrance of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:130
His word isn't simple any more than He is.
We can write a 500,000 page thread on any single verse - even Psalm 119:30 - for example to add understanding to the simple is not to multiply their simplicity. This verse connects to the proverb, also, where Wisdom laments, how long you simple will you love your simplicity? And how long will the simple hate knowledge? Clearly wisdom would add complexity to the simple, to make them wise. And wisdom begins with fear of God: knowing that His ways are beyond ours, which are simple, but His judgements past finding out.
Consider that as you affirm, God isn't 'simple' - and that eternal life is to know Him. How great is knowledge of Him then, if it produces an everlasting life? Will such knowledge and life fill only an hour?
We can state simply, "God is love" - but how many lifetimes are needed to plumb the depths of those few three words! "God" - all of human existence fails to reach full understanding of that word alone! And "is" - every great mind of all mankind has struggled to comprehend existence, let alone the "now" in which the word is conjugated, the eternal present! And "love" - who can understand this?? Love controls and moves a man and a woman in ways they utterly fail to describe, defying all logic and mortal reason!
My brother! The scripture is more complex and interconnected than any book that has ever existed in all of history! It reveals the infinite Almighty God and Savior of heaven and earth! Not "simple" but breathtakingly and unspeakably profound! Transcendental imaginary vector calculus is "simple" but the Bible is certainly not! It will take our whole lifetime to scratch at the surface of Psalm 119:30!
Last edited:
The "knowledge of God" that saves souls is relational and not derived directly from scripture. The world is full of people that know something of scripture but don't know God at all. If you know Him, you can learn from Him, but the scriptures are the most abused writings in all of human history. Men have always done violence to scripture by imposing their own imaginations upon what God has said rather than simply believing it.
Psalm 50 has an indictment against the wicked among God's people:
But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to declare My statutes, Or take My covenant in your mouth, 17 Seeing you hate instruction
And cast My words behind you?
18 When you saw a thief, you consented with him,
And have been a partaker with adulterers.
19 You give your mouth to evil,
And your tongue frames deceit.
20 You sit and speak against your brother;
You slander your own mother’s son.
21 These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you;
But I will rebuke you, And set them in order before your eyes. Psalm 50:16-21
Knowledge of scripture guarantees nothing but a stricter judgment, but knowing God through relationship with Him is salvation and life.
"When the answer is simple, God is speaking " Albert Einstein
Last edited:
people sure wouldn't be able to twist them & misunderstand them so if they were as simple as you describe
Q.E.D.
=p
I see you had to restate your OP here. I see you also have brought in the Trinity site choir and its been singing again in the worship of the Triune god.
Back to your OP...
Just look at Col 2:9 once more, and as you said, believe in God's words and not what we want to add into them.
Two simple tests then..
Logic: The fact that Christ could have the fulness of the Spirit of divinity means he was not God at all. You know as believers, we also have/ experience the same divinity as Christ, in part - see 2 Peter 1:4
Context: Paul was never teaching the Colossians about a 4th-5th century future Trinity concept. He was warning the Colossians to turn back or turn to the Christ to find God......
Just based on these two simple tests, I would suggest you rethink that Col 2:9 means Jesus = God. Is does not at all.
APAK
Actually, its been my experience that people can twist as little as a single sentence and tend to do even that according to what they imagine very regularly with comments posted on this site. Miscommunication is far more common than true communication and is almost entirely due to misperception and preconceived biases. Most people are far more interested in sharing their own opinion than actually hearing someone else's unless they are fortunate enough to find others that agree with them to bolster their confidence in their own understanding.
If you approach scripture with the expectation of finding hidden meaning, your imagination is very capable of finding it. The same can be done with fairy tales and popular songs, but the goal of biblical study isn't fiction.
While it's true that the spiritual significance of scripture can only be revealed by the Spirit of prophesy, the inspiration behind the human authors, the main things in scripture are the plain things, and the plain things are simple enough to be understood by children. Of such are the kingdom of heaven.
once again, if people can "twist a single sentence" then that sentence isn't 'simple' it's complex: it has to be at least as complex as the one hearing/reading it in order for it to fail to be understood: it contains as much or more information as the hearer/reader has aptitude to comprehend; if it were within the bounds of understanding, it would be impossible to be misunderstood.
i am not in any way meaning to imply that scripture can be interpreted however one chooses. 'the Spirit of prophecy' is the testimony of Christ ((Revelation 19:10)): if we understand that scripture is testifying of Christ, we are on the path of truly understanding it. if we do not see Christ revealed in it, we definitely do not see it rightly. the whole Bible is the Revelation of Jesus Christ: Psalm 119:30 -- so then if the scripture is the revelation of the infinite, even if we glean much, have we fathomed it? not according to any finite ((a category in which simplicity falls, near the bottom of it's measure)) understanding. therefore the scripture is complex beyond measure, and it is our duty to diligently plumb it, 'to show ourselves approved' -- who has finished that task?
Super strict
Super narrow way
Super rigorist
Super fundamentalist
Ways are unbiblical!
Philippians 4:5
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Not what you wanted to hear, or that my words offend you and others? I believe you have even misapplied and do not even understand Phil 4:5.
Yes, the truth immediately reveals unscriptural words of men. It is fundamental and the basis to understanding scripture.
The truth cuts sharply, deep and narrowly as a surgical knife, using strict standards of interpretation, tried under fire of the Spirit.
@Angelina 1 Timothy 3.16 and John 1.14 are other great verses about the Incarnation of the Son of God.
The Knowledge is simple.
The Understanding of the Knowledge a bit more complicated.
Men like to use their most natural tool...(their mind), to figure out all things.
Problem is: Man is not equipped to figure out "spiritual things", using their "carnal mind"...
But. Hey...men are smart, they have a test, to determine if you are INTELLIGENT...
Take the test, get your score number...and you have an instant status, what you say MUST be Right...right?
We observe even on this forum...this scholar, that scholar, the proof via the "titles", their status, their fame, the list of initials after a persons name...no need to discover anything for yourself...right? Just adopt whatever some scholar with titles, status, says...right?
Don't we see that repeatedly?
Yet...Understanding OF Gods OWN Knowledge, is Exclusively According to Gods Understanding....and Freely offered to ANYONE, (caveat...who is in a commited relationship WITH and IN Christ)....freely given for...ones asking.
Even we know, satan is expressly knowledgable of Gods Knowledge, and satan himself was given much Power....so realistically how could he ever be "defeated"?
Simple....he severed his "relationship" with God...and OOPS, he is no longer "entitled" to receive "Understanding of Gods Knowledge".
Satan is so focused on power, control, greed....he has power, he will have control, his greed will satisfy him, Momentarily....
Then bummer...poof it will all be gone.
Then maybe after it's too late, he will discover, all the power and control he "HAD", was all because God "gave and allowed" him to have it, and he did nothing with his "power and control"... but to use it Against God.
Men do the SAME thing. And men will ultimately end up the SAME as satan... WITHOUT God....then they Understand...but too late.
Glory to God,
Taken
Soul
Active Member
"...him who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21)
"...Christ ... who did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:21–22)
"...in him there is no sin" (1 Jn. 3:5)
"...one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin" (Heb. 4:15)
"...offered himself unspotted" (Heb. 9:14)
Jesus, God made flesh (human), was tempted like man is, but He is without sin because He resisted every temptation that would lead to sin. Is He like Eve and Adam after they sinned?
What Scripture tells you Jesus was made "HUMAN" flesh?
Do you have such a Scripture? Or perhaps have you been duped by a long standing False teaching, established by and accredited to catholic teaching?
1 Cor 15
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial...
1 Cor 15:
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh..
Jesus was not made a terrestrial.
Jesus was not made human flesh.
Rom 8:
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in thelikeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Phil 2:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in thelikeness of men:
Man was created in Gods "LIKENESS"...and called A MAN....he was NOT called "God".
God sending Jesus in a human Jewish mans "LIKENESS", ...was never Jesus being called A HUMAN man.
Calling Jesus a "HUMAN" man is a LIE...
Calling a HUMAN man who becomes Converted IN Chirst, (which IS restoration of a Human man IN Gods LIKENESS) ... calling him God, woud also be a LIE...
Human men, ARE terrestrials.
Human men, come from Dust of the Earth.
Never does Scripture teach, Jesus IS a terrestrial.
Never does Scripture teach, Jesus came forth out of the Dust of the Earth.
Scripture explicitedly teaches, Jesus came forth out from God in Heaven...and explicitedly teaches Jesus returned to God in Heaven.
John 16:28
Men IN CHIRST JESUS, agree, Jesus came forth out from God....and returned to God.
John 16:30
Men IN CHRIST JESUS, agree, Human men come forth out of the dust of the earth....and return to dust of the earth.
Gen 3:19
God Bless,
Taken
Disagree. (Or perhaps the way you present).
Man has two sources from which to decide a belief, an action.
1) the Mind. The Mind reasons, the Mind concludes by what "multiple options" of knowledge makes "logical sense".
2) the Heart. The Heart concludes by ONE OPTION, to believe or not.
Scripturally...the Scriptures teaches,, God is NOT LISTENING to "multiple options" your mind is mulling over, and "logically deciding" what to believe.
Scripturally...the Scripture teaches, God provides ONE OPTION to Believe...
* that ONE OPTION is BELIEVE IN HIM.
* God provides His WORD for men to LEARN ABOUT GOD.
* Any man HEARING Gods Word, IS GIVEN A GIFT from God. Hear a little, receive a little FAITh
* Continue Hearing, Continue receiving faith.
* THAT gift of Faith IS GIVEN to the thoughts in a mans Heart...(Not his mind).
* the mans HEART'S OPTION, (has nothing to do with his Minds choosing from multiple LOGICAL Options.)
* the mans HEART'S choosing is BELIEVE Gods Word, OR NOT.
* IF the man IS BELIEVING...he is a likely candidate to KEEP Hearing....and is called...
Having the Holy Spirit... WITH him.
* If the man IS NOT BELIEVING...he is a likely candidate to STOP Hearing....and is called...Having fallen from Faith.
Which means, he no longer receives Gods gift of Faith, FOR HEARING.
The Holy Spirit...is thus NO LONGER WITH that man.
* THAT MAN, DID NOT RECEIVE the Gift of Salvation. He was receiving the Gift of Faith.
He did not Fall from Salvation...He forfeited receiving Salvation that was Paid for BY Jesus, and appointed for that man TO HAVE, but the man Refused to ACCEPT Jesus' Offering.
* A man WHO continues Hearing, is being gifted MORE faith IN HIS HEART'S thoughts.
* A man WHO Freely chooses to ACT on His Hearts thoughts...
* IS the man the Lord God WILL HEAR, on the day the man chooses TO CONFESS his Heartful Belief in the Lord.
* That man is basing his option to Believe...ON ONE OPTION...Believe or Not.
* It is that ONE Heartful Choosing to Confess Belief...that the Lord Hears and immediately...
* Forgives that man OF ALL SIN.
* Restores that mans SOUL...(called saved)
* Quickens that mans SPIRIT....(called born again).
* Baptizes that man WITH Gods Holy Spirit
(Gods Spirit entering INTO that man...
* The HOLY SPIRIT is Thereafter FOREVER...
WITH and IN that man.
* The Holy Spirit of God, FOREVER Keeps that man FREE FROM EVER AGAIN COMMITTING SIN.
That ^ has nothing to do with "rational, reasoning, logical conclusion, or understanding, of the mind.
The CARNAL MIND IS enmity AGAINST GOD.
Rom 8:7
The Lord God SEARCHES the HEARTS of men,
( to verify, what the man SAYS out of his confessing Mouth, IS from his Hearts thoughts, or Minds thoughts ).
Not a new teaching;
1 Sam 16:7
Jer 17:10
Rom 8:27
Rev 2:23
Glory to God,
Taken
And also for @Angelina : where is this fictitious man-made concept of an incarnation. Both Hebrews 2:9 and 1 Tim 3:16 speak directly to Jesus being created as a human being (the flesh) and then arising to immortality (in power and glory) with an immortal body. We as believers will someday be the same, from the flesh to immortality. Why are you adding confusing and deceptive ideas that clearly are not there.Hi @Angelina 1 Timothy 3.16 is another great testimony to the Incarnation!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (NIV)
1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory. (NIV)
His Father promised and gave Jesus immortality for the first time in his existence, after his death on the Cross. It was the grace of God his Father. This is what is meant by godliness in 1 Tim 3:16; this mysterious or incomprehensible act by God, the Father, and our Father that transformed his Son from a human to an immortal.
Where does it say that God (and then which one of the three persons, as you believe) became a man in these verses? It's just not there I'm afraid.
APAK
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Hi @Angelina 1 Timothy 3.16 is another great testimony to the Incarnation!
From my post #6 above:
1 Timothy 3:16
Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:
“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes by copyists] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts .....” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] instead of θς ['God'] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:
“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.
In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.
What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!
Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!
Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes: “The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott and Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.
And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:
“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.
And even trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:
“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.
The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.
Even if we were to insist that those later manuscripts that used theos were, somehow, correct, we would have to recognize that it is the anarthrous (without the definite article) theos which we find. This is rarely, if ever, the form used for the only true God (when the known exceptions are taken into account - see MARTIN study). Instead, it either points to the probability that it is a corrupted OC (which of course would not have the article in the first place), or, less probable, but still possible, that Christ is being called “a god.”
John 3:13 AMP
13 No one has gone up into heaven, but there is One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man [Himself—whose home is in heaven].
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, believers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit nor be part of the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable (mortal) inherit the imperishable (immortal).
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since [these His] children share in flesh and blood [the physical nature of mankind], He Himself in a similar manner also shared in the same [physical nature, but without sin], so that through [experiencing] death He might make powerless (ineffective, impotent) him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—
John 17:4
I have glorified You [down here] on the earth by completing the work that You gave Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.
Hebrews 9
24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself
Angelina let me just respond to the first one as you have a given me a list and have not explained any of them yourself.
John 3:13...Jesus NEVER came down from heaven!
The Pharisees would not interpret John’s words to mean that Christ “incarnated.” It was common in that culture for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source. For example, in James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God (the Father). What James means is clear. God, the Father, is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. The Father operated behind the scenes to provide what we need, everyday. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly and literally down from heaven.
Just like when manna came down from heaven, the food actually did NOT come down directly from Heaven. It (white sugary substance) fell from the sky on the plants and other ground cover.
The key issue with many not understanding John 3:13 is that they cannot see the idiom used in plain sight. You have taken 'came down for heaven' literally, where it is truly a figurative expression. The source of Jesus' birth is definitely and literally from the Father, his Spirit, who literally 'came down from heaven' or extended/ reached down to Mary and gave birth to a Son in this miraculous and divine/godliness process.
Blessings
APAK\
PS I quoted John 13:3 instead of 3:13 - fixed it
Last edited:
Hi @Angelina: Another verse:
"But unto the Son he saith,
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1.8)
Similar threads
- Locked
