Jesus is Michael
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If your bible is right, then the second line in plain english reads--And God was with God--that is more than 1 God.
Gods truth is not taught in schools of men, Dogmas are. The Holyspirit leads the teachers Jesus appoints.
I allready have shown--The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus)-- YHWH IS always-LORD in the OT Jesus was not called LORD all capitols. Thus he is not YHWH. That title -LORD does not even belong in the OT YHWH belongs so it actually reads-YHWH said to my Lord. Proving Jesus is not YHWH.
I use the KJB, which is not a "trinity" translation. I am not "trinitarian" (common Roman. def.). I believe Jesus is in Proverbs 8, and the one who worked on behalf of the Father's commands in creating "all things". However, you stated that in "Proverbs 8", that it says there, "he (Jesus) was created". Can you provide the specific verse (or verses) in Proverbs 8 which states that "wisdom" (Jesus) is created? Be specific please.
Again, Colossians 1:15, "firstborn" does not ever mean "created". Even in a natural sense, to be "born" means going from one place "womb" to outside of the "womb". Existence in the "womb" is already presupposed. Therefore, even to use the word "firstborn" in that sense, it means Jesus' existence already was before being "born" as a man. Yet the word "firstborn" means something else entirely there.
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22-24 Produced me as the beginning of his way( creation)Brought forth with labor pains=Created direct-first and last, all other things created through him.
I guess you refuse to believe Peter, that is sad. Jesus made him the cornerstone of his one true religion. Dogmas are taught in most religions.
No, all it shows, is that in that one verse, that the Person/Being of the Father (JEHOVAH) is not the Person/Being of the Son (Adonai). It's like Daniel 7 where the Father is called "Ancient of Days", and the Son, called "Son of man". The Psalmist David, as well the Holy Ghost, which inspired the psalm, is simply identifying the two Persons/Beings in differentiation. The Son carries the name of His Father in Him, which is why in the OT, the Son is called "Jesus JEHOVAH" (in Hebrew), and in some places just "JEHOVAH" because He always comes on behalf of His Father's name, even as the Holy Ghost comes on behalf of the Son's name.
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JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
I did not point you to school or men. I said I would pray for you as only God can help you see the truth in His words.
I am praying for you. Nothing is impossible with God if it is the Father's will to help you see the truth in His words in spite of what you believe.
What 'translation' (I use that word very loosely here) is that supposed to be?
That is not anything close to what the Hebrew says. Neither the words "produced", "created" exist in all of Proverbs 8. The words "brought forth with labour pains" is simply a misunderstanding of the context of the words "brought forth", which means to be called forth to a task, not brought into existence. Even in a natural setting (of a pregnant woman), the child "brought forth with labour pains" already existed in the womb, but simply came from that place (womb) to another place (outside the womb). It doesn't mean to be created either.
Proverbs 8:22. יְֽהוָה קָנָנִי רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכּוֹ קֶדֶם מִפְעָלָיו מֵאָֽז׃
Proverbs 8:23. מֵעוֹלָם נִסַּכְתִּי מֵרֹאשׁ מִקַּדְמֵי־אָֽרֶץ׃
Proverbs 8:24 בְּאֵין־ תְּהֹמוֹת חוֹלָלְתִּי בְּאֵין מַעְיָנוֹת נִכְבַּדֵּי־מָֽיִם׃
Proverbs 8:22, [H7069] קָנָנִי. qänäniy does not ever mean created. It means to possess, or own. I wrote an entire study on the words here - Seventh-Day Adventists only; the meaning of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB
Proverbs 8:23, [H5258] נִסַּכְתִּי. niŠakh'Tiy means to be appointed to a task, even anointed to that task, set up in office (as a builder under the instruction of the Father)
Proverbs 8:24, [H2342] חוֹלָלְתִּי. chôläl'Tiy means to be called forward, from one place to another (as when the Father says, "My Son", and the Son says, "Here AM I, my Father." coming to the Father's call.
What 'translation' (I use that word very loosely here) is that supposed to be?
Again see (the details) - Seventh-Day Adventists only; the meaning of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB
That is not anything close to what the Hebrew says. Neither the words "produced", "created" exist in all of Proverbs 8. The words "brought forth with labour pains" is simply a misunderstanding of the context of the words "brought forth", which means to be called forth to a task, not brought into existence. Even in a natural setting (of a pregnant woman), the child "brought forth with labour pains" already existed in the womb, but simply came from that place (womb) to another place (outside the womb). It doesn't mean to be created either.
The words that are focused upon in Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB, are the words:
[1] "possessed [me]",
[2] "set up",
[3] "brought forth" [x2] and
[4] "him, as one brought up [with him]":
The definitions of these words, in their immediate context eliminates any idea of the Son of God the Father being "created" or having come into existence at some point in eternity past, but teach that the Son of God the Father, was always and eternally with the Father, and never at any point in eternity past not in existence as the Son, and in the act of creation, as seen in Genesis 1, which Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB relates, it was by the instrumentatlity of the person of the Son, who was with the Father, that the person of the Father created the Heaven and the earth and the things thereof, for the Father spake in Genesis to the Son, and the Son made, and the person of Holy Ghost/Spirit moved in response to this:
"possessed [me]":
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit.
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son, see 2 Samuel 12:3 KJB for a pictoral type.
"set up":
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King.
What 'translation' (I use that word very loosely here) is that supposed to be?
Again see (the details) - Seventh-Day Adventists only; the meaning of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB
That is not anything close to what the Hebrew says. Neither the words "produced", "created" exist in all of Proverbs 8. The words "brought forth with labour pains" is simply a misunderstanding of the context of the words "brought forth", which means to be called forth to a task, not brought into existence. Even in a natural setting (of a pregnant woman), the child "brought forth with labour pains" already existed in the womb, but simply came from that place (womb) to another place (outside the womb). It doesn't mean to be created either.
"brought forth" [x2]:
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].
The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees.
"him, as one brought up [with him]":
The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:
Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son?
Thus on the whole, when the eternal Father was to create the Heaven and the earth in Genesis 1 [as recounted by Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB], implementing the plan of redemption which had been hid for eternity in the mind of God should sin arise as it had done in Lucifer's rebellion, the Father by His direction/command/will, He called for the eternal Son to implement that plan, and direction, and the anointed Son ever willing to obey and Honour His Father, rejoicing before His Father carried out the will of the Father and made ["and God made"] all things as specified by the Father ["and God said"], the Holy Ghost/Spirit moving ["the Spirit of God moved"] in response to these things. Thus the Father made all things by His Son - by Wisdom, which had eternally been with the Father.
Curious, with whom is your present affiliation, if no longer "Catholic"?
What are your top 5 primary reasons that you believe Jesus is no identified as Michael Archangel in scripture?
Peter (Simon bar Jona) is not the "cornerstone" of Jesus' religion. Where ever did you get that idea? Peter said:
1Pe 2:7 - Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 - And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Jesus is the "rock", even cornerstone of the "one true religion". Peter is quoting Isaiah 8:14, which in the whole context refers to "Immanuel" as the rock.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Rom. 11 states that He will lift the veil of blindness sometime during the Great Tribulation.
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Amen...not to mention the one and only one that should settle the matter, but my guess is they have an answer to that to...like maybe "messenger" or some such thing...
Hebrews 1:5
"5" For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
NEVER, far as my bible say's...
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