Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

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Phoneman777

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interesting.

so you rejected Christ's commandment, "if someone asks you to go one mile, go with them two"
spent all day yesterday avoiding uncomfortable questions, and patted yourself on the back for it, thinking you had justified yourself by your non-action.

have ya ever heard of the parable of the good Samaritan?
What false pulpit prophet told you it's OK to dishonor God's commandments in order to honor the request of a heathen man? Sounds like Shuller's demonic "man-centered theology" that is all the ecumenical rage.
 

Curtis

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The Ten Commandments may not exist in a vacuum, but they certainly don't exist alongside the Mosaic Law because the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14-16 KJV) while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7-8 KJV).

Now, we can show you what God says constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy in Exodus 20:8-11 KJV. Can you show us where He wrote anything with His finger in addition to that, because all those "proof" texts you gave for sabbath keeping were nailed to the Cross, right or wrong?
And the ten c
The Ten Commandments may not exist in a vacuum, but they certainly don't exist alongside the Mosaic Law because the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14-16 KJV) while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7-8 KJV).

Now, we can show you what God says constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy in Exodus 20:8-11 KJV. Can you show us where He wrote anything with His finger in addition to that, because all those "proof" texts you gave for sabbath keeping were nailed to the Cross, right or wrong?

The entire covenant given on mount Sinai is bondage.
Galatians 4:21-31

The ten commands are an integral part of the 613 commands, ordinances and statutes.
They don’t exist in isolation, if the Decalogue is in effect, the rest of the covenant is still in effect,

The ten commands are such an integral part of the covenant, that the ark made to carry the two tablets was called THE ARK OF THE COVENANT

And the ten commands are THE COVENANT on two tables of stone:

Exo 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that Jehovah gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Once again, the covenant given on mount Sinai is bondage. The ten commands are part of that covenant, and called the covenant.

2 Corinthians 3 contrasts the old covenant ten commands that are called the ministration of death, and the letter that kills, with the new covenant law of the Spirit that brings life.

The entire book of Galatians was written to correct the errors of that church, that wanted to keep the law of Moses and the sabbaths.
 

Phoneman777

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You are misunderstanding what Paul is doing in this passage:

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
King James Version

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


He clearly calls them a ministration of condemnation and He also declares they have been done away with. He did not say they were evil- He said they were a ministry of condemnation and they are done away with.

Jesus fulfilled them thus rendering them moot!
We're just going to ignore the fact that Paul's number one enemy were "legalist" Jews who taught salvation came through the law?

I find it funny that if Paul meant to teach us the Ten Commandments were no more, he sure had a peculiar way of telling us to keep them. And John's baptism of Jesus "fulfilled all righteousness", so that means we don't need to be righteous, even though he specifically said we're to live "righteously..in this present world"?

Either Paul was confused, or those misinterpreting his words are ;)
 

Phoneman777

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Hello @Phoneman777,

I did not realise that this thread with such a horrible subject heading:- 'Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate? was essentially about the keeping of the fourth commandment:-

'Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'

(Exo 20:8)

In Christ Jesus
Chris


Hello! The question was inspired by a co-worker who claims to be Christian, but refuses to keep the Fourth Commandment, so when I asked him if he believed we should obey the Ten Commandments, he said of course we should, because it's NEVER going to be OK for us to break any of them.

Naturally, I asked why do you feel it's OK to break the Sabbath commandment and work on Saturday (making 82 bucks/hour) and he said, "My pastor says Jesus is our rest, so we don't need to rest on the Sabbath."

I'd never heard that before, but immediately the Lord showed me what I wrote in the subject heading and when I asked him about it, he had no answer, and said we needed to drop the subject, which I did. It's funny, he's forever having to shell out more money than he makes on car repairs, home repairs, doctor bills, adult kid expenses, you name it...it's as if that Sabbath money he makes is cursed or something ;)
 

Phoneman777

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And the ten c


The entire covenant given on mount Sinai is bondage.
Galatians 4:21-31

The ten commands are an integral part of the 613 commands, ordinances and statutes.
They don’t exist in isolation, if the Decalogue is in effect, the rest of the covenant is still in effect,

The ten commands are such an integral part of the covenant, that the ark made to carry the two tablets was called THE ARK OF THE COVENANT

And the ten commands are THE COVENANT on two tables of stone:

Exo 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that Jehovah gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Once again, the covenant given on mount Sinai is bondage. The ten commands are part of that covenant, and called the covenant.

2 Corinthians 3 contrasts the old covenant ten commands that are called the ministration of death, and the letter that kills, with the new covenant law of the Spirit that brings life.

The entire book of Galatians was written to correct the errors of that church, that wanted to keep the law of Moses and the sabbaths.
You can't lump the Ten Commandments in with the Mosaic Law as a "box set" when the Bible repeatedly makes clear distinction between the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law.

Or, do you not know that such a distinction exists? I mean, I've shown you just one proof of that by Paul's words about the one Moses wrote being nailed to the Cross, while the other that Jesus wrote is to "stand fast forever and ever".
 

CharismaticLady

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It's for the NC, too. "I will write My laws in their minds and on there hearts...not in tables of stone, but in the fleshly tables of the heart." (Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV; 2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV) Same law, previously written in stone, but now in our heart.

Tell me, is it possible to keep the Spirit of the Law, while breaking the Letter of the Law? Let's hang some meat on that theological skeleton: Is it possible to ejaculate in our neighbor's wife without "lusting" after her? Of course, if we're keeping the Spirit of the Law, we'll by default be keeping the Letter of the Law. :cool:

Jesus came to "magnify the Law and make it honorable (make possible for us to "honor", or "keep" it)" (Isaiah 42:21 KJV) and doing away with the Ten Commandments is not a magnification of them, but destruction of them, something Jesus Himself said He came not to do.

I'm not trying to get you to see that you are wrong if that is what you believe. But these things I've shared are the reasons I am no longer a Seventh-day Adventist which I love. Even today, 50 years later when I see the name Seventh-day Adventist I still get warm fuzzies, and will always defend them on the forums. I couldn't have asked for a better foundation for holiness, and love for the Scriptures. But God only had it as a stepping stone for where I am now - able to hear His voice, and receive the answer to every prayer I pray. 100%. While in SDA, I never received the answer to even one prayer. But that's just my experience. I do feel more of a kinship with EGW than I did before, now having the gift of prophecy myself, though I do NOT have that office. God has told me my office He was giving me was Teacher. One thing I prayed for was for Him to wipe away all doctrines of denominations and to start over learning from the Author, Himself. Immediately the knowledge of the meaning of Scripture amplified within me, and I keep learning new things every month. It is why I write theological books now. With the latest thing the Spirit of Truth taught me, I hope now I can finish my latest. But even after my first, there are now things I could have added to the subject. LOL

Here is one more Scripture:
Hebrews 7:
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

What never changed was the eternal law that the Ten Commandments were fashioned after, but the people could never become righteous from keeping the Ten. They were not deep enough. They were what could be kept by the letter of the law and with a sinful nature. But the eternal laws of LOVE GOD/LOVE NEIGHBOR go to the core of a divine nature and written on the heart. A sinful man could never keep the eternal laws which went to the depth of secret thoughts. But even with hate in their heart, they could still keep themselves from murder, etc. Jesus gave the means of taking sin out of us and giving us a new nature without lawless sin, and also His Spirit that bares fruit of actual righteousness and even holiness.

The Letter of the Sabbath is physically keeping a day holy. The Spirit of the Sabbath is Who it represents, the Creator, Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. It is God, Himself, not a day. God we keep every moment of EVERY day, not once a week. That is why the new designated day is "Today." Now that He has come, we do not keep His shadow, but He, Himself. It was a sign of the Old Covenant which you just added Jesus to. But the eternal law that included belief in His Son Jesus Christ as God, went to the core of evil, and in keeping them, there is no breakage of the surface laws of the letter, we establish instead true righteousness of the heart. 1 John 3:23

Please read all of them. #202; #204; #206; #227
 
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charity

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Michael/Jesus are the same being: the Second Person in the Divine Trinity.
Hello @Phoneman777,

The Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son: Son of God and Son of Man. The Archangel Michael is described as 'a great prince' (Dan 10:13;12:1; Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7) who 'stands' for the People of Israel. They are not one and the same.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

CharismaticLady

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Hello @Phoneman777,

The Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son: Son of God and Son of Man. The Archangel Michael is described as 'a great prince' (Dan 10:13;12:1; Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7) who 'stands' for the People of Israel. They are not one and the same.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I'm butting in here with my 2 cents.

The Michael of Daniel 10:13, 12:1, and Revelation 12:7 is the archangel Michael. We glean from here that the demonic archangel over Persia was called the "prince" of Persia. And Michael is the Archangel over the nation of Israel and thus called a "prince". Jesus is not Michael. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, but not just over one nation.

cc: @Phoneman777
 

Eternally Grateful

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"He that is not with Me is against Me"...if we're not decidedly on the side of Jesus and His Ten Commandments, we're by default fighting against Him.

Refuse to keep any one of the Ten Commandments and we're guilty of all, according to James...which brings us to the seventh day Sabbath issue....
Like I said in the other chatroom

I have turned you very to God, your unrepentant
 

CharismaticLady

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"He that is not with Me is against Me"...if we're not decidedly on the side of Jesus and His Ten Commandments, we're by default fighting against Him.

Refuse to keep any one of the Ten Commandments and we're guilty of all, according to James...which brings us to the seventh day Sabbath issue....

But James is not talking about the Sabbath issue at all. In fact, He isn't even advocating keeping the Ten Commandments. He is only using it as an example, not that it is still in effect, but only the rule of breaking one, you are guilty of all. Notice it is the royal law about our neighbor which is part of what I call the eternal law of LOVE GOD/LOVE NEIGHBOR that shows the deeper nuances to love. And, of course, by keeping the New Covenant law we go further, not lesser into righteousness. So we are not breaking any of the 10C, not even the Sabbath because we keep the true substance of the Sabbath, rest in the Lord of the Sabbath.

But in this case it is on partiality and mercy, not in the 10C. The 10C is the ministry of death as I showed you in 2 Cor. 3:6-11. James 2:12 repeats what the New Covenant law is called. The Law of Liberty. It is much stricter and deeper than the shallow 10C, so we cannot even get away with hate or being partial to the rich over the poor, or the black over the white or vice versa.

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
 

Ronald Nolette

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We're just going to ignore the fact that Paul's number one enemy were "legalist" Jews who taught salvation came through the law?

I find it funny that if Paul meant to teach us the Ten Commandments were no more, he sure had a peculiar way of telling us to keep them. And John's baptism of Jesus "fulfilled all righteousness", so that means we don't need to be righteous, even though he specifically said we're to live "righteously..in this present world"?

Either Paul was confused, or those misinterpreting his words are ;)

Well in Galatia they were Paul's number one enemy, but I doubt they were in Corinth. Corinth didn't have a problem with legalism but with licentiousness

Well Paul said the commandments written in stone were done away with. If you find that funny- that is on you!

And you reaching a false conclusion about us not being righteous because teh bible tells us that Jesus fulfilled all the righteouosness of the law is also on you.

Jesus is my righteousneswss. and the righteous deeds I do are because of Christ in me! My flesh or human nature can produce nothing righteous --ever.
 

Curtis

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You can't lump the Ten Commandments in with the Mosaic Law as a "box set" when the Bible repeatedly makes clear distinction between the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law.

Or, do you not know that such a distinction exists? I mean, I've shown you just one proof of that by Paul's words about the one Moses wrote being nailed to the Cross, while the other that Jesus wrote is to "stand fast forever and ever".
There is no such distinction in the law of Moses. The ten commands are absolutely part of that covenant to the point of it being called the covenant, and all of it had to be kept as one body of law, down to the least jot and tittle.
It’s called mosaic law, not because Moses dreamed it up and invented it, but because God gave it to him.
It is one body of law, which is why Paul warns if a Christian keeps any part of it, they are required to keep it all, not just the part they like such as keeping Saturday, but all 613 parts of it.
The Decalogue kills but the two love commands that replace them bring life.
The ten commands as regards man’s treatment of his neighbor are negative commands, limiting the bad behavior towards them by threat of death if they don’t keep them. Dont kill him, don’t steal from him, etc, or die.
The two love commands are positive commands that results in not hurting your neighbor because you love him, and goes far beyond the ten commands in how well you treat him - not just refraining from hurting him, but doing a great deal of things for him, out of love.
That’s why the two commands aren’t just redundantly restating the Decalogue- they are completely different and the two commands are far superior to the ten.
As an illustration, the neighbor on one side of your house confides that he’d like to steal all your goods, rape your wife, then kill you both, but he’s trying hard not too, because the ten commands say not to. Or the neighbor on the other side, who when you tell what the first neighbor said and ask him if he’s tempted to also do any of those things, says, no, why would I want to do that? I love you, i only think of helping you, not hurting you.
Which neighbor would you rather have?
And Paul also warns if you put yourself back under the law you fall from grace and make Christ of no effect unto you.
 

post

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What false pulpit prophet told you it's OK to dishonor God's commandments in order to honor the request of a heathen man?

Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
- Jesus Christ, the visible Image of the invisible LORD God Almighty


feel stupid yet?
you look it. Proverbs 12:1

 

post

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Not you! LOL Ok, here we go:

Zechariah KJV:
3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

When the Lord rebukes Satan, He does it in the name of the Lord. Michael the Archangel is the Second Person in the Godhead who rebukes Satan in the name of the Lord, in Jude 9 KJV.

BTW, this which you provided proves my point: the OT "Angel of the Lord" is Christ manifesting Himself as an angel - the Ruler of Angels aka Michael - before He manifested as human and took the name Jesus:

c.f. Judges 13:18, where His name, appearing as The Angel of the LORD, is "Wonderful" ((see also Isaiah 9:6 )) - and Judges 13:19-20 also establishes that He Himself is the LORD.

have a look at Jude 1:10 in the context - "yet these people slander everything they do not understand"
→ Michael does not understand why Satan wants the body of Moses, but Michael is a contrasting example that condemns the people Jude speaks of.

you think the LORD does not understand? that's what you imply.
you slander what you don't understand, but Michael wouldst not.
 
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robert derrick

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I'm sure most will immediately disagree, and rightly so. Jesus' fulfilling of the Spirit of the Law in us does not permit us to break the Letter of the Law.

Yes, the Letter of the Law is a killer, but to whom? To him who attempts to obtain salvation through observing it - which is impossible, according to Romans 8:7 KJV and Luke 17:10 KJV. But, to the Christian who keeps the Spirit of the Law forbidding lust - and by that will automatically be keeping the Letter of the Law forbidding the act of adultery - to him, it is not a killer, but a "Law of Liberty".

So, if the fact that Jesus is our truth, reward, and faithfulness does not permit us to lie, steal, or fornicate...why do so many claim that since Jesus is their spiritual rest, they may freely break the fourth commandment? To the contrary, if Jesus is indeed our inward Spiritual rest, we will demonstrate that by outward obedience to the fourth commandment, according to Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV. The only rest God ever took was literal rest from His work of creation on the seventh day; the only day upon which He rested, blessed it, and sanctified it. If He is indeed our spiritual rest, we ought to evidence that by literally resting on the seventh day Sabbath day. Need I remind anyone, it's not the fourth "suggestion", it's the Fourth Commandment, right or wrong?
Your reference to the law of liberty seems to mean that Christians are delivered from the power of sin and have the liberty of righteousness in their lives, so that the law is indeed just and good, no longer being an enemy because of sin, but becoming an ally because of God.

The law was a handwriting of ordinances against us as sinners, but as saints it is nailed to the cross with Jesus. No longer to be feared and transgressed against, but to be written in our hearts, so that like David, we can say, "I love the law of God".

What I see in the perfect law of liberty, is God's perfect law that is only against sin, that is sin indeed: that which God says is sin.

And in that perfect law of plenty of liberty: the liberty to do good, to have good success, to live well.

Also the liberty of partaking of all things without lust. It is this liberty of the law of Christ that is judged against by those of weak conscience, who see no liberty at all in living for God, pertaining to the things made by man on earth. They are the 'zero tolerance' policy-makers. Taste not, touch not, drink not, etc...

And so, while grace is no license for sin, neither is the law hard to keep for the righteousness, because the law of Christ indeed is good law to live by.

We are not saved by the law, but we certainly do live by it, and there is plenty of liberty within it.
 

robert derrick

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I'm sure most will immediately disagree, and rightly so. Jesus' fulfilling of the Spirit of the Law in us does not permit us to break the Letter of the Law.

Yes, the Letter of the Law is a killer, but to whom? To him who attempts to obtain salvation through observing it - which is impossible, according to Romans 8:7 KJV and Luke 17:10 KJV. But, to the Christian who keeps the Spirit of the Law forbidding lust - and by that will automatically be keeping the Letter of the Law forbidding the act of adultery - to him, it is not a killer, but a "Law of Liberty".

So, if the fact that Jesus is our truth, reward, and faithfulness does not permit us to lie, steal, or fornicate...why do so many claim that since Jesus is their spiritual rest, they may freely break the fourth commandment? To the contrary, if Jesus is indeed our inward Spiritual rest, we will demonstrate that by outward obedience to the fourth commandment, according to Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV. The only rest God ever took was literal rest from His work of creation on the seventh day; the only day upon which He rested, blessed it, and sanctified it. If He is indeed our spiritual rest, we ought to evidence that by literally resting on the seventh day Sabbath day. Need I remind anyone, it's not the fourth "suggestion", it's the Fourth Commandment, right or wrong?
So this thread is about the Sabbath still being law of God, or a Commandment that is everlasting through both Covenants.

Then that would apply to Circumcision, which was before the Law and in the Law of Moses.

In any case the Law of Moses was done away with at the cross and changed into the Law of Christ for the New Testament.

The only Scriptures that make commandment and law of Christians are those of the New Testament after the death of Jesusw on the cross.

And the Sabbath is never stated as either commandment or law.

That doesn't mean a Christian can't keep the Sabbath, because all Scripture everywhere is still good to do by personal faith, but you don't teach it as law for all, except it is written as such in the Scripture of the New Covenant.
 
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robert derrick

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So, who's picking? Are you aware that the Law of Moses began at Sinai and ended at the Cross, while the Ten Commandments - including the Sabbath according to verses like Genesis 26:5 KJV and Exodus 16:28 KJV - existed long before Sinai and "stand fast forever and ever" according to Psalms 111:7-8 KJV?

Did Cain know better than to kill Abel?
Did Abraham know better than to lie to King Abimelech and also Pharaoh?
Did Rachel know better than to steal from her father?
Did Balaam know better than to covet the wealth of Balak?
Did Joseph know better than to commit adultery with Potiphar's wife?
Did the Israelites know better than to break the Sabbath before they even got to Sinai?
"stand fast forever and ever" according to Psalms 111:7-8 KJV

The Old Covenant was everlasting (Gen 17), and now it is...Old.

Likewise the Levitical priesthood was supposed to be everlasting (Num 25), and now it is...not.

Sometimes we look at the death of God Himself on the cross as some sort of blip in the history of mankind.

Everything changed at the cross, and that which was intended to be everlasting ceased, because it was established in the flesh of man, even as the covenant of circumcision.

But now, God has an everlasting Covenant (Heb 13) and law and priesthood that will never cease, nor fade away, because it is established in the resurrected body of His dear Son, by an oath that cannot be broken, because it is made between God and His Son, the man Christ Jesus, and not between God and his adopted people born of a carnal seed.

And I will throw in the nation of Israel of God being no more a naturally born one. It has also ceased to be peculiar to God, and is now just another nation of nations on earth. There is no more Jew and Gentile before God, only saints in Christ and unbelieving sinners.

When the law of Moses was done away, by which God established His covenant in the flesh of the Jews, then His Covenant of promise with the Jews after the flesh is likewise done away.

The law of Christ is written in our hearts by His Spirit, and is to be fulfilled by His faith in our lives walking after the Spirit. His holy nation is no longer a national people on earth, and His law of Sabbath for that national people is not written for His holy nation.

Unless it can be shown as written as law and commandment for us to obey in the doctrine of the apostles, which is the doctrine of Christ. And not in the Gospels of Jesus Christ walking as a Jew after the law of the Jews, which he Himself gave to them in the wilderness.
 

friend of

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I believe the word you're looking for is "archangel" which means "ruler of the angels", which Ruler Jesus is. BTW, no mention of "Michael" or "Archangel" in Hebrews 1.

An "archangel" is a type of angel. Albeit a higher ranking one, an angel nonetheless. Hebrews makes it abundantly clear that Christ is not an angel.
 
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Gregory

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You don't understand. The eternal law that Christ has put in our hearts covers all of the Old Covenant Ten Commandments. It is based on "Love God with all your strength, mind and spirit, and your neighbor as yourself.

What is the difference? The difference is the Ten Commandments had to be kept by the LETTER through will-power of a sinful nature. And the eternal laws of Jesus 1 John 3:23 are kept by the SPIRIT with a lawlessly sin-free born again nature.

Now see if you can understand the difference. We MUST be born again, not just follow rules by rote.
Which is more difficult to live:
The Law of Moses says in the 6th commandment: thou shalt not commit adultery.
The Law of Christ says in Matthew 5:28: That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Which one of these laws is the more difficult to keep. Moses says don't physically commit adultery. Christ says if you lust after a woman you have committed adultery.

Which of these laws is the letter and which is the spirit?
 
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