Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

[robert derrick]

Jesus said Himself... Abide in Me, the Vine. The result of abiding is a natural progression. Fruit. It isn't something we need to strive to produce... Work to develop... Or go about feeding, nurturing, or pruning the vine. No, that's God's work. Our responsibility is to abide... Remain attached. And trust. He has promised to bring us home.
Along the way come trials and temptations. Joys and sorrows. Failures and successes. Misdirections, bumpy roads, smooth sailing. Life is never boring, but it's always challenging. And we never stand still. We don't hover, stall, idle, or become becalmed. If we don't progress forward, of we don't grow, we drift in the tide. So Jesus made promises so we don't drift. Hunger and thirst for righteousness, and be filled. Love Me, you'll keep my commandments (bear fruits of righteousness). Read and trust My words, for they accomplish that for which they are sent. To the law and to the testimony, if others speak from another source, don't trust them. I will never, never, forsake you.
So yes. You are correct. Salvation is conditional on abiding. The inevitable result of abiding is fruits of the spirit, character. As well as obedience. That same Spirit guides, leads, teaches, corrects, instructs in righteousness, but, and it's a big but, the Spirit will never ever contradict scripture. If the Spirit instructs you in matters of righteousness, the scriptures will confirm this. So we have a double witness.
This for me was so in my acceptance of the Sabbath. There came a time for me when I needed to get back to basics. To the beginning. To start afresh. This came after a period of backsliding in which I had reverted to some of my old ways and habits, but never stopped believing. But my life was falling apart as a result. I wanted change. I needed change. But I wanted truth. Deep untarnished truth. Whatever the cost.
"Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness". What is your righteousness?
KJV Psalms 15:1-2
1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
I wanted to be that guy.

KJV Psalms 23:3-5
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Yes,!! Thank you Lord! Thank you for your promises. Take my life Father, grant me grace and mercy and your mind and heart.

KJV Psalms 119:142
142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

KJV Psalms 119:172-176
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day...

Faith led to Christ. Christ led me to His law. The rest was easy.

It is good that committing to a Sabbath was a large part of your recovery, and no one should try and deny it. The only issue here is preaching the means of your recovery, however well intentioned, as absolute necessity of law for all believers, on pain of eternal damnation:

"Obedience was optional... But the reward of the disobedient remained constant. Eternal damnation."

Which really doesn't bother me at all, because I know it is not law of Christ. And preaching as a lawgiver and judge is contrary to Scripture, but I don't believe falsely teaching the Sabbath as law constitutes the kind of false teaching and apostleship, that Scripture utterly warns against and condemns as antichrist.

Unless of course you had power of state to enforce a Sabbath on pains of fine and imprisonment.

Would you do that, if you had the power?

(P.s. Madam charisma would say you actually got saved for the first time after your sins were renewed...Not that it matters. ALl that matters is the here and now (2 Cor 6:2))

 

[robert derrick]

Once truly saved, yes. Many go to church every week, and yet love darkness the rest of the week. I was like that for the first 30 years of going to church, BEFORE I was born again. What a difference the Holy Spirit makes!

Not me. I didn't really start going to hear the gospel until I wanted to be saved and know God for myself.

And so again, what about them that have tasted the heavenly gift and fall away back to sins again?

 

[robert derrick]

"Jesus said He didn't come to change the law."

Jesus did not come to destroy the law. Changing the law is a different matter:

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Heb 7)

Perfection was not by the Levitical priesthood, and the perfecting of the saints is not by the law of Moses, which is changed to the law of Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

What happens if a Christian sins? (breaks one of the commandments)
(I am confused my your meaning of "obligated"; does he cease to be a Christian?)

obligated (transitive verb): to bind legally or morally; borrowed from Latin obligātus, past participle of obligāre "to tie up, restrain by tying, place under a legal or moral constraint"

• are we "tied up" by the Ten Commandments?
• I do not refrain from STEALING because I am LEGALLY CONSTRAINED from stealing. That implies that if God allowed me to steal, then I would happily steal all that I could without giving a thought for how it would impact "loving God and loving others".

"There is no third option." This is a logical fallacy from the "false presumption" group called the "False Dilemma fallacy".

This is sometimes referred to as the "Fallacy of the Excluded Middle" because it can occur as a misapplication of the Law of the Excluded Middle. This "law of logic" stipulates that with any proposition, it must be either true or false; a "middle" option is "excluded". When there are two propositions, and you can demonstrate that either one or the other must logically be true, then it is possible to argue that the falsehood of one logically entails the truth of the other.

That, however, is a tough standard to meet - it can be very difficult to demonstrate that among a given range of statements (whether two or more), one of them absolutely has to be correct. It certainly isn't something which can simply be taken for granted, but this is precisely what the False Dilemma Fallacy tends to do. - LINK
​

Stating "there is no third option" does not automatically make it true.
As soon as you clarify "OBLIGATED", I can respond to your original question.

"Is the Christian obligated to keep the Ten Commandments or at liberty to break them?"

Look, there are only two choices: we ARE at liberty to break them or we ARE NOT at liberty to break them. Which is it?

• If we are at liberty to break them, then the Christian can join a Satan-worshiping sex-cult and there's not a single thing you or anyone else can say against him.

• If we are not at liberty to break them, then the Christian who impenitently joins a Satan-worshiping sex cult is going to hell.

"HE THAT IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME. HE THAT GATHERETH NOT WITH ME SCATTERETH ABROAD". - JESUS

"THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL SWITZERLAND." - PHONEMAN777​

 

[Phoneman777]

You need to reread Paul since you missed what he actually SAID about the Ten Commandments (like "Thou shall not covet").

No, you need to read Proverbs 28:13 KJV where it says mercy is only to those who confess AND forsake their sin, not for those who make excuses for continuing in them. All who refuse to keep the Sabbath and any other of His commandments which "stand fast forever and ever" will answer for their crimes, and the universe will finally be rid of all who refuse to live "soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world".

 

[Phoneman777]

If He manifested Himself as an angel, that would make Him an angel. So you are saying Jesus, who is God, became an angel, then became a human. That's silly.

No, I'm saying the Divine Jesus periodically appeared in the form of an angel in the OT and took the name "Michael" when He did, but eventually and permanently became a man and took the name Jesus which He will carry for all eternity. This was a very common teaching that crossed all denominational boundaries years ago, so we should not recoil in horror from it, thinking it means to teach that Jesus was not God in the highest sense of the word.

However, in the 19th century, the Jehovah's Witnesses began twisting the proof texts that show Michael is Jesus to erroneously teach that Jesus was a mere angel and nothing more than a created being - because the founder of Freemasonry, C.T. Russell, was a 33 degree mason and wanted to spread among Christianity the occult foundational teaching that Jesus was not divine.

You might want to check out "Total Onslaught (against Jesus Christ)" by Walter J. Veith on Youtube and click on "The Secret Behind Secret Societies" and "Hidden Agendas" and "The U.N. and the Occult Agenda" and you will be shocked to learn that the reason the leaders of the world are always doing what seems to be the opposite of what should be done (like the U.S. giving ISIS billions of dollars) is because THEY ARE ALL IN ON A MASSIVE CONSPIRACY TO DESTROY CHRISTIANITY AND ENTHRONE LUCIFER -- it is exactly as Jesus said it would be by His words, "...if it were possible, they should decieve the very elect."

 

[Phoneman777]

But you have ZERO Scripture that says Michael is our savior. I have MANY that say God is our Savior and Jesus is our Savior.

Your "great men of God" do not overrule the Bible. Michael is not God nor my Savior.

Spurgeon and Adam Clarke also knew that Jesus is both Creator and Savior while at the same time teaching that Michael was Jesus..do you think these great men would teach this without any Scriptural arguments to back it up? I assure you, there are several very plausible arguments that can be made to support the doctrine.

What is clear is that you are unwilling to study it our for yourself, which means you are condemning something for which you know absolutely nothing about - which is reckless and irresponsible.

 

[atpollard]

Look, there are only two choices: we ARE at liberty to break them or we ARE NOT at liberty to break them. Which is it?

• If we are at liberty to break them, then the Christian can join a Satan-worshiping sex-cult and there's not a single thing you or anyone else can say against him.

• If we are not at liberty to break them, then the Christian who impenitently joins a Satan-worshiping sex cult is going to hell.

"HE THAT IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME. HE THAT GATHERETH NOT WITH ME SCATTERETH ABROAD". - JESUS

"THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL SWITZERLAND." - PHONEMAN777​

Stating "there is no third option" does not automatically make it true. [fallacy of the false dilemma]

 

[atpollard]

No, you need to read Proverbs 28:13 KJV where it says mercy is only to those who confess AND forsake their sin, not for those who make excuses for continuing in them. All who refuse to keep the Sabbath and any other of His commandments which "stand fast forever and ever" will answer for their crimes, and the universe will finally be rid of all who refuse to live "soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world".

That will not change the fact that you are misquoting Paul.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yeah. Read Hebrews 1:5 @Phoneman777

Maybe you don't understand the difference between Jesus "appearing" as an angel, and an ordinary created angelic being...this should clarify:

Remember in the OT when the Angel of the Lord would appear to people and declare the place "holy" and men would commence to worship the angel? That was Jesus - not an ordinary angel - "appearing" as an angel.

 

[Phoneman777]

No it doesn't. I pulled up the site for different translators of the Peshitta and George Lamas was by far the worst.

By whose standard? Your's or other anti-Sabbatarians?

He even twisted verses to mean the opposite of what it truly meant. And as far as Heb. 4 it is evident that Lamas makes the scriptures say what HE believes, and not what they actually mean.

I'm pretty sure that's who it's done: scholars examine the MSS and determine what is the best way to write it in another language

But Romans 8:1 shows he believes in the heresy that as long you believe in Jesus you can walk in the carnal flesh and not be condemned!

I'm pretty sure when Lamsa says "flesh" he's referring to our "literal flesh" not the "fleshly nature" that is supposed to have been buried in baptism, right? Let's not emotions cloud our thinking. If he was refering to "fleshly nature" the verse would contradict itself.

As far as Hebrews 4, Lamas is the only one that points to the old Sabbath, instead of another sabbath. He is biased.

There's no such thing as the "old Sabbath" because what you call "old Sabbath" is going to be kept for all eternity by those who submit to keeping it in the here and now.

The sabbath rest that is actually for us is called grace which the apostles mean is divine power to partake of the divine nature, and NOT a license to sin as some believe to their shame.

You're just going to keep ignoring that in Hebrews 4:1-8 the word for "rest" is translated over and over from "kataposis" but in verse 9 it's "Sabbatismos", right? You're welcome to, but anyone who is willing to be honest knows that verse 9 and 10 plainly tells us that if we're resting inwardly in Jesus, we will evidence that by outwardly resting from our work every seventh day "as God did from His".

 

[Phoneman777]

There are two basic proofs of false doctrine:
1. It is not written plainly in Scripture so that any child could understand it.
2. Traditions of men are turned to for 'evidence'.

You've go to be kidding, right? Everyone knows the absolute heavyweight champ of all "tradition turned doctrine" lies is Sunday sacredness! Not one shred of Scripture establishes it - it's solely on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church alone, and they make it their BOAST to say so, and then mock all non-Catholics for keeping Sunday:

"Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church."
​

Still waiting on 'Sabbath keeping' quoted from Scripture of the New Testament given to us by our Risen Saviour.

Didn't Jesus tell Christians in Judea to pray they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day? Remember, there were no walls around Judea, so His words had nothing to do with locked gates, right?

Didn't Jesus say the Sabbath was made for M-A-N (Gk. "anthropos" which means "mankind") which is a strange way to spell "jew", right?

Didn't Paul make a Grace sandwich using two slices of Sabbath and a succulent slice of Grace in the middle in Acts 13? Have a bite:

13:42 "Paul, preach to us next SABBATH".
13:43 "Y'all got a new day - SUNDAY". Oh wait...he didn't say that...he said, "Continue in GRACE'.
13:44 "The next SABBATH day came almost the entire city together to hear Paul preach".


Mmmmmmmmm, delicioso!

 

[Taken]

I disagree.

I believe a born again Spirit filled Christian can do all of those things... But he won't.

Some do, Some don't...
* Consider A new Convert...
Anything "new" takes a bit of time to adjust, adapt to it, grow with it, practice it, make it a habit, and experience the benefit.
* Consider (not knowing all things)...
Say you will do this or that, and busy time passes, forget, emergency arises, and what you said you will do can not be done... A Lie? Sure.

Just because one becomes a Christian, doesn't mean he loses his power to choose.

Correct. Freely Choosing Christ, does not prohibit other Freewill choices. We make choices all day long.

But being a new creature, a child of God, he shall always choose that which is right.

We are not all knowing. We may think something IS RIGHT, and find it was NOT.
We are not MADE Perfect. "We are MADE Perfected IN Christ". Our "PERFECTION" comes later.

Hence the absolute necessity to abide in the Vine.

Abide, Live... IS Once IN Christ, Always IN Christ, BY HIS POWER, because that is precisely WHAT we Freely Chose, According to His Offering, Order and Way.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[kcnalp]

1 John 1:8-9 is a sinner becoming a Christian comparable to Acts of the Apostles 2:38. How many times must you become a Christian? How many times must you be baptized? How many times can you repent to receive the Holy Spirit? It is your old sins prior to becoming a Christian that are cleansed, 2 Peter 1:9. Unfortunately you don't know how the newbirth makes you empowered to no longer desire to sin. So are you born again or not?

...and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. 1 John 3:9

John included himself? John wasn't a Christian? Are we forgiven if we don't confess our trespasses sins?

 

[kcnalp]

Spurgeon and Adam Clarke also knew that Jesus is both Creator and Savior while at the same time teaching that Michael was Jesus..do you think these great men would teach this without any Scriptural arguments to back it up? I assure you, there are several very plausible arguments that can be made to support the doctrine.

What is clear is that you are unwilling to study it our for yourself, which means you are condemning something for which you know absolutely nothing about - which is reckless and irresponsible.

No Scripture? Of course not! No where does the Bible say Michael is our God or Savior!

 

[Phoneman777]

And if you don't, then you will burn forever in the lake of fire:

"Teaching people we don't have to keep the Sabbath will land such an impenitent one in the Lake of Fire with the rest of "the least", and they will get zero mercy, no matter how much they gnash their rebel teeth."

Just spreadin' the love...

Leviticus 19:17 KJV...failing to spread the "loving rebuke against sin" is hate, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman777]

"You said: "he (Jesus) tells us we need to prepare to be judged by the Ten Commandmetns" but you didn't give a scripture reference of where He said that. May I see it please?"

That was the question she asked. Politely.

We are also waiting any Scripture at all in the New Testament of our Risen Savior where the Sabbath, the day of rest, not working one day in the week is even remotely spoken of for Christians to do and obey..anything like that will do.

Or you can give Scripture where the '10 commandments' is spoken of for Christian obedience to the Risen Saviour.

The Spirit of Jesus inspired James, did He not?

 

[Phoneman777]

Michael is an archangel. A created archangel as all angels are created.

I always figured the 'created-christ-mongerers' would most likely also be made-up lawgivers for Christians, and here we are: Sabbath commanders posing as believers in Jesus as Lord and God.

No, "archangel" means "ruler of angels". Jesus is their Creator and ruler.

 

[Phoneman777]

"Hebrews 4:9 Peshitta says it's "the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath" because if we're resting in Jesus, we'll demonstrate that inward rest by outwardly resting on the Lord's day, the Sabbath (Isaiah 58:13 KJV)."

Here is the carnality of Sabbath-keepers by law. They have no spiritual concept of being outwardly at rest, wherever and whenever you are, because of the inward rest of soul and peace of heart.

They must by law perform an outward show of rest to prove how rested up they are on the inside.

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

It is the same show of will worship as circumcision, demanding an outward carnal performance of the inward work done:

"For he is not at rest, which is resting outwardly; neither is that Day of rest, which is outward in the flesh: But he is at rest, which is resting inwardly; and the Day of rest is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

No doubt they praise one another every Saturday, as they scornfully look upon all others doing work as heathen and infidels, even as do the Jews obeying outwardly Moses of old.

Judaizers, who give lip service to the faith of Jesus while outwardly keeping the law of Moses.

I'm just quoting the Bible: Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV says it's the duty of Christians to keep the Sabbath because if we're resting inwardly in Jesus, we'll evidence that by resting outwardly from our work on the seventh day "as God did from His".

 

[Phoneman777]

Even as the carnal ordinances of the Levitical priesthood was imposed upon the people, until Christ to come, so is the carnal commandment of the Sabbath imposed upon the people, after Christ is come.

There is no Scripture at all in the New Testament of the risen Saviour pertaining to Sabbath keeping, but only the one Scripture pertaining to not judging believers according to the Sabbath. (Col 2)

Sabbath commanders demand keeping the carnal Sabbath without Scripture, and they judge others carnally after the Sabbath against Scripture.

You're still not getting it. The same law can't be both "carnal" and "spiritual". The Law of Moses was carnal because it was a shadowy figure that pointed to the reality of Jesus.

The Ten Commandments are no shadow of anything, nor is the Sabbath. They are a TRANSCRIPT of the character of God. The Sabbath is a MEMORIAL to Creation and also to RECREATION of our hearts in Jesus. Only the unsaved will find Sabbath keeping "grievous", while true Christians will find it a "delight, honorable".