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Jesus' Return.....in the Air ....on the Mountain

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by quietthinker, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV
    [10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
    Here’s your rapture.
     
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I got my head wrapped around politics and the end of the world at the moment.
    Although being plucked out of the fire could be a very good analogy of our upcoming future as a human race.

    Where are the two witnesses?
    What is their job?
    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    clothed in sackcloth... why not clothed in glory? why sackcloth?

    Gen 37:34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
    2Sa 3:31 And David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes, and gird you with sackcloth, and mourn before Abner. And king David himself followed the bier.
    1Ki 21:27
    And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
    Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
    Isa 50:3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.
    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    These two witness are to prophecy 1260 days. clothed in sackcloth.
    Mourning, fasting, proverbial, blackness...
    sounds like lamentations and woe.. to me.

    Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    rain can be rain like from the sky or rain can be the spirit of the Lord and his doctrine from heaven.
    These have power that it rain not during the days of these 2 witnesses prophecying.
    waters can mean rivers, lakes, oceans, or it can mean peoples and nations.
    These have power over the waters to turn them to blood.

    turn them to blood.... by killing or covering with?
    to smite the earth with plagues,.. man earthy or the panet earth?

    So, I'm kind of walking in the firmament right now between spiritual and earthy understanding of what I'm seeing happening in the carnal world, yet also trying to understand the spiritual significance and where it's heading at the moment.
    I feel like there is going to be a convergence soon where earth meets spirit, and they come face to face.
    No more veil, no covering.
    At the same time the two witnesses make their appearance, after 1260 days of prophecying,
    Then the beast makes war with them.
    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Is this beast a system? Is it a global system or more national and local?
    I believe it's global.
    This system is going to attack these two witnesses clothed in mourning and fasting after 1260 days of their testimony.
    What is their testimony?

    Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
    brand, branch... snatched up, escaped, rescued, saved... out of the fire.
    Not from the fire, but out of it.

    Jde 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    fire, judgement, fire, temptation, fire..

    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
    Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

    I'm a bit scattered today. Lots of things coming out in the political world today as well as military, economic, global...
    And it's all interconnected physical and spiritual, and it's happening NOW.
    So I'm a bit distracted and find myself comparing spiritual with spiritual...
    because I feel something is knocking at the door.
    And I'm not sure if it's a good knock or a bad knock, but something is close.

    Hugs @VictoryinJesus
     
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  3. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    The whole claim of the pre-tribbers is that the rapture doesn’t count as Him COMING again because He doesn’t land on the earth, but does a u turn and goes back to heaven - BUT - 2 Thessalonians 2:1 says
    we are gathered with Him at His COMING, which is the second coming.

    The rapture is not separate from His coming.

    The secret is that the rapture isn’t a secret event, and the pre-trib consensus is incorrect.
     
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  4. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    I now believe the two witnesses are in the first half of the tribulation, and operate only in Israel, probably near AC headquarters in JUDEA, and when Satan possesses the AC at the mid trib point, and the AOD by the SOP event occurs, then they are killed and the great tribulation begins, and the mark is given for 42 months.
     
  5. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    AOD - abomination of desolation.

    SOP - son of perdition
     
  6. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    you've taken the bait Curtis, lock, stock and barrel.....and don't know it!
     
  7. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    If scripture is defined as bait, yes.
     
  8. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Wisdom says you would enquire but now that you are sure, what can be added?....the cup is full!
     
  9. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Been studying eschatology a good number of years, thanks.

    The two witnesses testify 42 months then are killed.

    They testify about Messiah and the coming great tribulation then are killed when the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and overcome them. He is given that power, and power to give the mark, for 42 months, so he becomes much more powerful at the mid trib point, and that’s when he steps into the temple and claims to be God.

    He gets that sudden power after he’s assassinated and resurrected from the dead, and is actually possessed by Satan at that point.

    But you no doubt try to spiritualize those events and make the AC into a nation or anything but a man as scripture plainly says he is.
     
  10. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    You suppose and presume many things Curtis.....you attempt to validate your view by the length of time you have studied yet Paul makes this observation; 'forever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth'......I mean, how could one if at every juncture the cup is full!
     
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  11. ReChoired

    ReChoired Well-Known Member

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    They are real events, given in symbols. It is that you misunderstand those symbols and their meanings.
     
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  12. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @VictoryinJesus

    Thank you for including me, but I have not followed this thread, and now that I look at it, I see a confused mess of divergent views which make me reluctant to join in.

    * My hope in regard to this subject is contained in Colossians 3:1-4: which is what I look for (Titus 2:13), as a member of the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23):-

    'If ye then be risen with Christ,
    seek those things which are above,
    where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
    For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
    When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
    (ie., be made manifest)
    then shall ye also appear with Him in GLORY.'
    (Colossians 3:1-4)

    ' ... Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing
    of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ...'

    (Titus 2:13)

    * I believe this 'appearing' (or manifestation) will take place immediately prior to Christ's 'coming'.
    * Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, were written following the revelation of God given to Timothy as
    'The Lord's Prisoner' at the end of the Acts period: following the departure of Israel into the darkness of unbelief, which is marked by the quotation of Isaiah 6:10 in Acts 28:26-27, and the departure which followed (v.29); when salvation was sent to the Gentiles (v.28); salvation having been unto that date 'of the Jews' (John 4:22). This revelation concerns the Church which is the Body of Christ: and No mention is made in these epistles of the 'parousia'; so it cannot be the hope of that company of the redeemed.

    * By God's reckoning we have died with Christ, been raised with Christ, and will one day be manifested with Christ in GLORY.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
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  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

    There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

    The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

    The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

    All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

    Ephesians 1:13KJV
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30KJV
    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

    Revelation 9:3-6KJV
    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

    Revelation 11:3-6
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    Revelation 16:1-11KJV
    1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
    4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
    5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
    8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Destroyed Them "All" At The Lords Future Revealing.

    Luke 17:29-30KJV
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
     
  15. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Been studying? Don't you mean you've seen the movies, "Left Behind"?
     
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  16. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    thank you for joining in and I do get what you are saying. It is a hot mess, yeah? I’m probably not helping. Included you because of your clearness to convey to others thoughts. It may appear as you and I are far apart on the topic of His appearance, His coming, or the rapture. But maybe not as far apart as it seems. I was thinking this morning rather than rapture (Imo) it is the resurrection which I’m in no way arguing against. To be clearer; Maybe I get tangled up by the word rapture and all the different views that go along with it, for which cause I prefer the resurrection of the dead at His coming, the resurrection of the dead at His presence instead of trying to figure out the timing of a rapture.

    see my hope is also contained in those passages.

    here is one suggestion only. An opinion and question I have concerning this appearing or manifesting immediately prior to Christ coming? For me it would have to be immediate because what I read is His coming IS the brightness that makes manifest, that His presence comes before any appearing or manifesting of glory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    And when they shall have finished their testimony:

    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

    This Gospel of the kingdom is the testimony the two witness give.
    And when they have finished their testimony...
    that there should be time no more..

    Jhn 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

    Sackcloth..
    Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.

    thinking..
    Hugs
     
  18. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    clothed in sackcloth... why not clothed in glory? why sackcloth?

    Mourning, fasting, proverbial, blackness...
    sounds like lamentations and woe.. to me.

    Clothed in sackcloth …why not clothed in glory? Why sackcloth. When I think of mourning I think of: James 4:7-10 but “clothed in glory” comes after mourning…after not our own righteousness but the righteousness which comes from God? ‘Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.’

    1 Corinthians 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    ^a brother might be taken from them, and rather than mourning the loss as a Father mourns the lost of a son they are glorying…puffed up…where Paul said you should have mourned.

    2 Corinthians 12:19-21 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. [20] For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and (instead) that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not…mourning) lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: [21] And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

    2 Corinthians 7:6-10 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, (mourn, humbled yourselves in the sight of God and He shall lift you up) comforted us by the coming of Titus; [7] And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more. [8] For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. [9] Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


    clothed in sackcloth... why not clothed in glory? why sackcloth?
    Proverbs 16:17-19 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: (Job 28:28)
    he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul. [18] Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. [19] Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

    highway above consider:
    Isaiah 35:8-10 And an highway shall be there, and a way(Christ said: I Am the way) and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. [9] No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there : [10] And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy (John 16:22) upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
    ^
    Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.’


    Clothed in sackcloth …why not clothed in glory? Why sackcloth.
    Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
     
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  19. ReChoired

    ReChoired Well-Known Member

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    The texts, which will help the blind to see if they will it to be so:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 KJB - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,​

    Paul refers to the second Advent of Jesus Christ when he says “by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” and further by adding, “and [by] our gathering together unto him, which are similar to the passages of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJB; [see also Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27 KJB]:

    Isaiah 11:12 KJB - And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 KJB - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJB - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​

    Compare:

    1 Corinthians 15:20 KJB - But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJB - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJB - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJB - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 4:18 KJB - Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

    The King James English word “coming” is translated from [G3952], “παρουσία”, “parousia”.and may be seen in many other passages [see also 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12 KJB]:

    Matthew 24:3 KJB - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Matthew 24:27 KJB - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Matthew 24:37 KJB - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Matthew 24:39 KJB - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJB - For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJB - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJB - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJB - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 KJB - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    2 Thessalonians 2:9 KJB - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    James 5:7 KJB - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

    James 5:8 KJB - Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    2 Peter 1:16 KJB - For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    2 Peter 3:4 KJB - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    2 Peter 3:12 KJB - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    1 John 2:28 KJB - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.​

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at the Father's appointed time:

    [1] 'to come and/or arrive', [G2064], “ἔρχομαι” “erchomai” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7 KJB],

    [2] 'to appear visibly', [G3700], “ὀπτάνομαι”, “optanomai” [Hebrews 9:28 KJB],

    [3] 'to return', [G360], “ἀναλύω”, “analyō” [Luke 12:36 KJB],

    [4] 'to reveal', [G602], “ἀποκάλυψις”, “apokalypsis” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30 KJB],

    [5] 'to manifest', [G2015], “ἐπιφάνεια”, “epiphaneia” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13 KJB],

    [6] 'make manifest', [G5319], “φανερόω”, “phaneroō” [1 Peter 5:4 KJB],

    [7] 'come', [G2240], “ἥκω”, “hēkō” [Revelation 2:25 KJB],

    [8] 'to return', [G5290], “ὑποστρέφω”, “hypostrephō” [Luke 19:12 KJB].​

    See also:

    Matthew 24:37 KJB - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Luke 17:26 KJB - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    Luke 17:30 KJB - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​

    The next text:

    2 Thessalonians 2:2 KJB - That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.​
     
  20. Desire Of All Nations

    Desire Of All Nations Active Member

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    Rev. 20
    When 1 Thess. 4 is read by itself, it can seem to support rapture theology. However, Isa. 28 teaches that biblical theology cannot and definitely should not be built on what 1 passage says because everything concerning biblical doctrine is scattered in different parts of the Bible like a jigsaw puzzle. You have to put all of the passages concerning 1 subject together to grasp the whole picture, and the subject concerning Christ's return is no different. Yes, 1 Thess. 4 says Christ's saints will meet Him in the air, but it does not say the saints are mysteriously zapped into the air and disappear with Him to Heaven.

    Furthermore, Christ gave the whole timeline of what would happen from His ascension to His return, and in no way, shape, or form did Christ teach Hal Lindsian theology. Christ stated in no uncertain terms that the saints will not be gathered to Him until after the Tribulation, and that the whole world will know His saints are being gathered:

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Matt. 24:29-31

    It's no surprise that people who reject God's laws adhere to Hal Lindsian theology. They reject the authority of the OT, which ironically supplies extremely important pieces of end-time prophecy. The events in Zech. 14:4-5 happens after the saints are gathered, where it is stated that Christ and the gathered saints will go to the ground and into Jerusalem after the various armies that fought against Him are destroyed. When Paul said the saints will forever be with the Lord in 1 Thess. 4, it's because they will be ruling this world with Him forever. The golden rule of reading Paul's words is to always read them in context of Christ's statements, not isolate them out of context.
     
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