Jesus wanted to live not to die

[Joseph77]

Jesus' will to live was the will of the flesh. Like in any of us there was an instinctive [proper usage?] desire or purpose to keep himself alive [physical life] and comfortable. Jesus showed us by example what God hopes for from each of us... to make our way equal to God's Way.

Some people say Jesus could not have denied God's Way, but I have to disagree, because Jesus had to have a real temptation with the real possibility of giving the wrong answer... or to me anyway... it loses the meaning of temptation.

(I only now read the op)

If Jesus had succumbed to any temptation, we would all be talking in vain emptiness, without any hope, and being most foolish of all men anywhere.

He laid down His life freely, perfectly in obedience and total harmony with the Father , all of His Word, all of His Plan, and all of His Purpose Eternally.

The temptation as if to stand up for Himself, in any way to protect His Own Life not trusting His Father to ,
if given in to,
would have meant He could not have been or become our Savior - His blood could not be the Atonement, the Payment once for all time, for out sin(s).

Oh, yes, He "could" have sinned, but then that would not have been His Plan nor the Father's Plan, would it ? Something totally different would have resulted.

 

[amadeus]

You probably thought of this so I would like to know your reasoning on why you would reject it as support for Joseph's idea?
KJV Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Thank you for this. I don't disagree with Joseph's idea. It is simply that I don't remember really getting into the question before. I have heard people speak of it, and if Jesus is God, or he at least existed with the Father prior to the birth to Mary in Bethlehem, it can makes sense.

My problem is so not in disagreeing, but in not having a clear understanding of it. I have never been a strong Trinitarian and I hesitate to say what I am in that respect at all, but I know that sometimes people draw a conclusion based on reasons which to me seem wrong. I could be wrong too, which is why sometimes I remain silent on such issues. Some people of course insist that their beliefs or faiths are absolute truth. I try not to do that even though on some points...???

Your verse does at least support to the idea, even though it may not establish it absolutely. But... living by faith, it emphasizes for me that difference between believing something and having faith in it.

 

[Joseph77]

My problem is so not in disagreeing, but in not having a clear understanding of it. I have never been a strong Trinitarian and I hesitate to say what I am in that respect at all, but I know that sometimes people draw a conclusion based on reasons which to me seem wrong.

Good (to me) - as so many people have long expressed faith in various teachings and doctrines,
but for 'reasons' / choices/ not related to faith or Scripture at all.... (i.e. to be "in", to be "accepted" )

Those who are having an ongoing trusting, relying on Jesus, have life.

The past true and false teachings do not take away from this. (the false falls away while trusting in Jesus, following Jesus) ....

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus' will to live was the will of the flesh.

Since Jesus was sinless Man (as well as God) there was no *flesh* in His nature (if by *flesh* we mean the old Adamic sin nature). That is why the virgin birth of Christ was so necessary.

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, so the issue of His "will to live" is moot. He knew in advance that He would also rise again on the third day.

What troubled His holy soul in Gethsemane was what lay ahead for Him on the cross. Christ would literally become SIN for us (He who knew no sin) that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. That was the bitter cup that Christ wanted to avoid, but also knew that it was unavoidable.

 

[amadeus]

I could add more, like the promise made by Jesus Himself to Adam and Eve in the garden. Did you know the more correct understanding of Eve's declaration when she gave birth to Cain would be a paraphrase saying something like, I have gotten from the Lord, the Lord. There is sound language reasoning that suggested Eve thought her firstborn was the promised Messiah, Savior. This suggests that God told Eve such a Savior was coming... And the preservation of Noah, the call of Abraham, the establishment of Israel and in particular the preservation and protection of the line of David, all the prophecies, all add up to a covenant made between Father and Son that would bring about mankind's salvation should they fall.

I will add to my last post to you that I did not 'reject' his suggestion. My own carnal mind is also still working actively in my head. That is my part of the double mindedness that needs to go... that needs to be killed. When I am in the Spirit I always know precisely the difference between the two minds... but I am not always in every moment of every day "in the Spirit". That brings to mind another one here I like very much @Episkopos Sometimes I understand exactly what he is saying but other times I have not a clue. Probably the latter case is when I have drifted from being "in the Spirit" and walking with Him and being led by the Spirit all of the time [time, Spirit and ???]

I like your idea of Eve's "from the Lord, the Lord". [If I heard it before, I don't remember it.] In a sense it was true for certainly Jesus was born not only of God but of Mary, who was certainly a direct descendant of Eve's. Perhaps Eve was disappointed because she did not understand that that baby boy was only the first generation [never mind that Mary would be through Seth rather him] of quite a few generations that would have to pass before Jesus finally born. But... what was time to Eve? What is time to us? What is time to God? [That reminds me of someone here not too often these days...? Oh yes, @ScottA , who had some good ideas about time]

I have no doubt that God has the whole of His plan formulated before there was a first man Adam, but the question of Jesus' involvement remains, doesn't it? My inability to embrace the Trinity without doubt or hesitation is the one the barriers between where I am and where others are, I guess.

 

[Joseph77]

I have no doubt that God has the whole of His plan formulated born there was a first man Adam, but the question of Jesus' involvement remains, doesn't it? My inability to embrace the Trinity without doubt or hesitation is the one the barriers between where I am and where others are, I guess.

no!.... what most others, multitudess embrace is tradition.

Never be concerned rejecting tradition at all, and
never be concerned as if it were at all important about what others think of you, nor
be concerned with being approved by others at all.

Thankfully , that which you are calling (apparently ) a "barrier" (to fellowship?) has kept you
as God Designed Himself and
as God Worked Himself to protect you so far - do not give in to temptation to believe traditions that are not from Scripture (nor doctrines, nor practices, nor anything of demons nor anything of the flesh).

 

[amadeus]

(I only now read the op)

If Jesus had succumbed to any temptation, we would all be talking in vain emptiness, without any hope, and being most foolish of all men anywhere.

He laid down His life freely, perfectly in obedience and total harmony with the Father , all of His Word, all of His Plan, and all of His Purpose Eternally.

The temptation as if to stand up for Himself, in any way to protect His Own Life not trusting His Father to ,
if given in to,
would have meant He could not have been or become our Savior - His blood could not be the Atonement, the Payment once for all time, for out sin(s).

Oh, yes, He "could" have sinned, but then that would not have been His Plan nor the Father's Plan, would it ? Something totally different would have resulted.

The apparent conflict you see is the one I see with regard to every man considering this verse:

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." Rom 11:2
I believe that God knew at all time [before the foundation of the world] who was going to make it to the end with Him and who was not... but that was not for me predestination.

I also believe that God gave each of us a choice between God and mammon. The choice really was/is ours even though God knew our choice before we did.

Trying to understand that by human logic may twist you in knots. I don't dwell on it much myself because I don't like being all twisted up in knots either.

Yes, Jesus as a man had the ability to sin, but he never did. His Father knew [foreknew] that Jesus would not. Again this is where we need the understanding of that sometimes seen man @ScottA Of course, that's for me. Some others here will reject him and throw me away as well just because...

 

[Joseph77]

Some others here will reject him and throw me away as well just because...

Jesus says anyone who tells the truth, who stands up for truth, will be kicked out. That always happens, ever since (and before?). Jesus said it.

Trying to understand that by human logic may twist you in knots.

I never saw any trouble with it (and some others have not either) ? Just like a little child, I believed all of God's Word is Truth, Perfectly and Totally Truth.

Those who have to deal with baggage - old things they were taught all their lives, by parents and chruches and schools and now television and media - they have a lot more troubles (if they believed or trusted that stuff) ... yes.... usually they just throw us out and they already rejected Jesus and rejected the truth - so they don't have to be around the truth!
(the LIGHT (JESUS) came into to world to save the world, and the world rejected the LIGHT (JESUS) because their deeds (lives) are evil) ....

 

[bbyrd009]

He didn't come only to die methinks. I believe He came for another very important purpose... To reveal the true character of His Father. To this very day, Satan has succeeded in convincing man that God is severe, judgemental, harsh, unyeilding, selfish. And since the garden, man had made God in his own image, and all the false gods throughout mythology have been expressions of the worst traits of mankind on steroids. Jesus came to reveal the truth.

hmm. pretty much "like" down to "and all the false gods..." where i might argue that while there were def some loo-loos, Molech and etc, there were also maybe some very thoughtful ppl worshipping Mithras, Zeus, The Virgin, simply bc they had no better model maybe? The Virgin will be with child would almost certainly have been heard in this context then imo

 

[Joseph77]

there were also maybe some very thoughtful ppl

Do you think God in His Word describes those people somewhere ?
If so, what does God say of them ?
(like in Athens happened, in ACTS, where and when the Messenger(s) sent of God visited... )

bc they had no better model maybe?

What did the Messenger(s) of God tell those who practiced idolatry then ?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you think God in His Word describes those people somewhere ?
If so, what does God say of them ?
(like in Athens happened, in ACTS, where and when the Messenger(s) sent of God visited... )

ha well sure i guess there are many passages for that, even Abraham came from or out of he Oaks of Mamre which is a wisdom school, not actual trees, yeh

What did the Messenger(s) of God tell those who practiced idolatry then ?

wadr i dont think that changes the point, but only the subject? Im not arguing for Mithraism, understand, but merely suggesting that there were conscientious ppl who had no better model to follow

 

[Joseph77]

but we go to Luby's for a lil shindig after we get baptised huh

No, we go help others, maybe even immerse others if it is their time...

 

[Joseph77]

,,,,,
quote: "What did the Messenger(s) of God tell those who practiced idolatry then ?"

wadr i dont think that changes the point, but only the subject?

Is not the point to repent ?

There are no idolators in heaven, as written.

 

[amadeus]

Since Jesus was sinless Man (as well as God) there was no *flesh* in His nature (if by *flesh* we mean the old Adamic sin nature). That is why the virgin birth of Christ was so necessary.

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, so the issue of His "will to live" is moot. He knew in advance that He would also rise again on the third day.

What troubled His holy soul in Gethsemane was what lay ahead for Him on the cross. Christ would literally become SIN for us (He who knew no sin) that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. That was the bitter cup that Christ wanted to avoid, but also knew that it was unavoidable.

The 'like' I gave you was Not because I agree with you completely, [you know that I do not] but rather because you are a man who believes strongly and presents what you see to be God's case. I do believe that God looks at our hearts.
Give God the glory!

 

[bbyrd009]

Is not the point to repent ?

There are no idolators in heaven, as written.

yes ty Joseph, have a nice day ok

 

[bbyrd009]

The 'like' I gave you was Not because I agree with you completely, [you know that I do not] but rather because you are a man who believes strongly and presents what you see to be God's case. I do believe that God looks at our hearts.
Give God the glory!

I have not seen such faith from anyone of Israel maybe, huh

 

[amadeus]

no!.... what most others, multitudess embrace is tradition.

Never be concerned rejecting tradition at all, and
never be concerned as if it were at all important about what others think of you, nor
be concerned with being approved by others at all.

Thankfully , that which you are calling (apparently ) a "barrier" (to fellowship?) has kept you
as God Designed Himself and
as God Worked Himself to protect you so far - do not give in to temptation to believe traditions that are not from Scripture (nor doctrines, nor practices, nor anything of demons nor anything of the flesh).

No, I cannot give in to them. There are no churches now of my experience where I am not in some disaccord with where they are. Some of it is due honestly different understanding of scripture, but much of it, as you say, is due to traditionally held points of view. My wife was perhaps the best vessel sent by God to help me develop in the direction God has led me. She always knew when the pressure of wrong ways had reached the point where it necessary to leave... where it was God saying, "come out of her".

My desire even now to visit church meetings is not because I expect it to be different, but that I enjoy a physical fellowship with people who really also love God. It is the traditions held by just about all of them that makes me fairly certain that I will never be a 'member' as men understand members of any 'church' while I still reside here in this veil of flesh.

How much more time Lord? I don't know, but now there are two more faces in my head of people I won't see around here again. But, that's OK too. God still knows what He is doing. We just need to stay on His side.

 

[Joseph77]

There are no churches now of my experience where I am not in some disaccord with where they are. Some of it is due honestly different understanding of scripture, but much of it, as you say, is due to traditionally held points of view. My wife was perhaps the best vessel sent by God to help me develop in the direction God has led me. She always knew when the pressure of wrong ways had reached the point where it necessary to leave... where it was God saying, "come out of her".

WONDERFUL !
(many have the same Godly , God-directed , experiences daily, weekly, monthly, for years, and for decades... or rather "few" do, per various perspectives; in any case, most/more/many stay on the wide road, for friendship with /in/ the flesh, not willing to give it up to be with Jesus as He Says) ...

 

[Joseph77]

My desire even now to visit church meetings is not because I expect it to be different, but that I enjoy a physical fellowship with people who really also love God. It is the traditions held by just about all of them that makes me fairly certain that I will never be a 'member' as men understand members of any 'church' while I still reside here in this veil of flesh.

Amen. We live in a dangerous and wicked generation.

Always be trusting Jesus and the Father.... all day, all night, all the time.

 

[Joseph77]

How much more time Lord?

Revelation 6:10 - Bible Gateway
www . biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation 6:10
Revelation 6:10 . KJ21. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" ... How long before you step in and avenge our murders?" Then each martyr was given a white robe and told to sit back and wait until the full number of martyrs was ...


And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;

and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,

until their fellowservants also and their brethren,


that should be

killed as they were, should be fulfilled."