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Featured Jesus wanted to live not to die

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by amadeus, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @bbyrd009


    Jesus' will to live was the will of the flesh. Like in any of us there was an instinctive [proper usage?] desire or purpose to keep himself alive [physical life] and comfortable. Jesus showed us by example what God hopes for from each of us... to make our way equal to God's Way.

    Some people say Jesus could not have denied God's Way, but I have to disagree, because Jesus had to have a real temptation with the real possibility of giving the wrong answer... or to me anyway... it loses the meaning of temptation. He felt the pressures we feel from the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life [I John 2:16]. What he lacked, that none of us lack, was a personal history of failing to yield to those three attractions. He did not yield to them because in spite of the real attraction, He also had the power of God within Him, the Word. [Holy Spirit inspired]. He really understood all the alternatives... not just having guessed or theorized about them. God did not want the man of flesh Jesus [the one subject to temptation...] to live. The man of flesh Jesus did want to continue his natural life of flesh as you and I do. When Jesus in that last trip to Gethsemene he overcame the world of his carnally tempted flesh. [He overcame the temptations of I John 2:16] . He made his will of the old man perfectly equal to the will of new man. The will of the new is equal to the will of the Father/God.
     
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  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since Jesus was conceived supernaturally and did not have the indwelling sin nature, none of that applied to Him. That's why Scripture says "without sin" or "sin apart" -- a reference to the sin nature.He was the sinless God-Man.

    As to temptations, they can be very real EXTERNALLY, but that does not mean that there must an internal response. So even though His temptations were real as far as that goes, they had no impact.

    As to the title of the thread, Christ came to die on the cross -- "Christ came into this world to save sinners". He knew this from before the foundation of the world. Yet, Christ was fully human, and at the same time He also knew the tremendous agonies He was required to face at the cross. His humanity shrank from that, but because His human and divine natures could not be in conflict, He fully accepted the Father's will regarding what He had to face.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    so then this is a spiritual death that should maybe be equated with the baptism, would you say?
    but i gotta believe now that while it was in God's will, that is only because that is what the people "needed," in fact under the law nearly every sin tequires blood
    Ergo God's "will" is not um like fully grasped.
    Jesus stays Nehushtan and (you) cannot do any greater things, etc
     
  4. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    but we go to Luby's for a lil shindig after we get baptised huh
     
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  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    You ignored my explanation, which does explain why he was able to avoid sinning. You used unsupported tradition conclusions about 'sin nature' or Jesus being a 'sinless God-man'.

    Your presumptions, based on what you believe, change the meaning of the 'tempted' in the verse about Jesus being tempted. Adam was also produced ...To God would that be easier or harder than being conceived in Mary?... also supernaturally and he did sin. You can believe that Jesus was unable to sin, but not without changing the definition of the word 'tempted' in the following verse:

    "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

    Jesus came to bring Life and he did:

    "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

    But part of God's plan was that Jesus would suffer and die. The fleshly man Jesus with all of the temptations within him also did not want to die. He wanted to live.

    The Spirit/Word of God that Jesus was or contained did not fear death and knew it was necessary for the fleshly man Jesus to die in order accomplish God's will.

    This was the conflict within Jesus, which is essentially the same conflict within each man born of a woman after we after we have met God and are serving Him. The conflict was resolved for Jesus in that last prayer to the Father/God in Gethsemene as described in the OP [Matt 16:39].

    Similarly the man of flesh of each of us [the old man] does not want to die. He must also die. Paul was working on his when he penned these words:


    "And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
    I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.: I Cor 15:30-31


    Paul needed to die daily.

    I believe that Jesus killed all of the remaining temptations in himself by his final words spoken the third time in that already cited verse:

    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    From that point Jesus still had the task of the cross before him [the killing of the fleshly vessel], but the will of the 'old man' of Jesus was already equal to the will of God. He was not tempted to call down angels nor to simply get up and walk away:

    "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  6. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    In baptism is not a person is to be immersed (with apologies to sprinklers) and kept under until all the dirt is gone that is until he is dead to anything opposed to God? This would be the death of the old man. So if the old man remains alive [what he calls life] while an very immature [baby] new born man has just begun, they continue to share their quarters within us, but not in the same rooms [so as not to be unequally yoked].

    Why did Apostle Paul need to die daily? That 'old man' of him was still gasping for breath and acknowledgement and ultimately, dominion. This where the one needs to decrease while other needs to increase:

    "He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

    No, none of us fully grasps God's will... at least not all of the time in every situation. If we really fully understood it as Jesus did and had the same power of God through the Holy Spirit in us, we would all of us be overcomers like Jesus was and we would never again sin... even while in this body of flesh. For it to happen we must really believe that it can. Faith is available so we can be led to knowledge... that is, the end of faith!

    "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2
    When we consider doing these impossible things, we need help and it is available. We need only to ask:


    "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

    How do we get beyond worshipping the empty shell of Nehushtan? I guess that would be covered also with the "impossible things". For some it may remain impossible they don't see a difference and so refuse to ask for help.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  7. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Unfamiliar with Luby's but many years ago a very good friend of mine used to say we should go to Joel's Place for some of that 'new wine':

    "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish." Luke 5:37

    "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" Joel 2:28

    Are we interested in Joel's Place? Remember to drink the old wine if you can as it is better:

    "No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better" Luke 5:39


     
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  8. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    yes, i have heard this myself since day 1, amadeus, but it just isnt holding much water anymore tbh. The Son of Man has no place to lay His head so i dunno about "comfortable" too much? And, your or your generations' personal feelings prolly notwithstanding, most younger believers seem to have had at least one suicide experience, me included? So, why Jesus wanted to live, i'm not so sure, but imo it is disingenuous at best to assume that Jesus was having a "weak moment?" And it seems to me a denial of I came that you might have life, more abundantly.

    It strikes me as a mithraist concoction now tbh. If Jesus was indeed having a weak moment, then why wouldn't Scripture say as much, do you think?
     
  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    satan could not get to Jesus after a 40 day fast, but was able to pre-crucifixion, after He had already told the apostles "what must come to pass?"
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I really believe that I do understand it well enough myself much of the time. It's those times when my own doubts come back at me hard that... etc. What is most difficult for me is my own hard-headed view of people who cannot see what I see. I ask God for help so as not to openly express it when I feel such a spirit in me. I may off the beam on a lot of things, but when I see... and there I go again wanting to criticize this one or that one or...?

    We should, all of us believers, [if we are], be the place where Jesus can lay his head. I know when I have stepped outside of the veil and moved back toward the outer darkness I am no fit place for man nor beast, much less for the Son. Sometimes the Inn is simply closed up because there are no vacancies. For the Lord there should always be room, but in most vessels there is not. How many vessels does He require?

    "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" I Kings 8:27

    That was the house Solomon built via the hands of his multitude of human workers, but what of the one made without hands?

    "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." Dan 2:34
     
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  11. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well, (you) could be right, i dont know; i am skeptible bc it is the party line, so to speak

    it sounds now like just nother way to affirm Death, More Abundantly
     
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  12. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Some may really be able to Live going along with what appears to be the party line, and in a sense I can also, but ultimately I find myself sometimes or often rebelling against complacently satisfied followers of an absolute truth they say that they know. Who knows?
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    I have not seen such faith in anyone in Israel is a strange statement, huh
     
  14. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    If this is right, then Jesus was not tempted in all things.
     
  15. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    What about the sin of self-promotion? Would it have been a sin for Jesus to want to be crucified so he could be promoted? Or did he have to do it out of pure love, without any expectation of any reward? Did the Father "owe" Jesus anything? Or was it up to the Father what reward if any Jesus should have?

    I think there are some who desire to partake of that cup with slightly impure motives. What happened the two disciples said they were able to partake of the same cup? Did they get what they asked for? Somehow I doubt it.
     
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  16. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    It goes along with this:

    "But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
    And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
    And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching." Mark 6:4-6
     
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  17. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    The self promotion goes along I John 2:16's pride of life: "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world"

    What, I believe, commonly happens to sincere believers is they by the power of God almost leave behind the other two things mentioned in that verse [lust of flesh, lust of eyes] but then get slack with an almost "I've got it made now" attitude and moved into the place of swelled heads. This is certainly where some [not all] undoubtedly end... as I believe it... by their taking hold of that OSAS doctrine. The test period is not finished until we have run out of time or we have overcome all obstacles between us and God as did Jesus. That is what I believe.

    With the "pure love" you mention the final result will be a good one because we have really moved toward becoming selfless... like Jesus.

    On the way [the Way?]...perhaps were those two: Jesus gently corrected their attitude but then went on to encourage them. God knows precisely where we are and what is necessary to improve where we are. All we have to do is ask Him in those things and we'll have the answer we really need. People receive a blessing and then let it go to their heads instead of simply giving God the glory and loving Him for being who and what He is.
     
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  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Would Jesus have been taking his own advice by seeking to promote himself? This is what comes to my mind:

    Luke 14:8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
    9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.


    Both died as martyrs, didn't they? They got that part anyway.
     
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  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this is right on it. That verse would come to my mind each time I was at a fellowship/worship gathering and at meal time, the powers that be in the home assembly would say, "let the ministers and their wives go first". I did not want to be first and usually was not in a hurry to eat anyway, but it bothered me because even where they regularly preached much truth, they were in programmed/indoctrinated to miss on this... as I saw it. When someone of those making such decisions mentioned this situation they would usually make reference to this verse:


    "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." I Tim 5:17

    What does it mean to "rule well" so as to qualify to be first? Someone decided as well I guess without personal knowledge since these ministers were from many different assemblies too far from one another to really have a real idea of who qualified. If this were the only little program in place it wouldn't bother much, but as we both know there lots of these "little foxes".

    Well James was apparently killed by a sword as a martyr, while John it is reported would not die. They did drink the cup as Jesus told but not the sitting one on the right on the left.
     
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  20. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    There are different stories about how John met his end. I incline to the one that says he was martyred. The passage doesn't actually say John would never die.

    John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
    23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


    I think he did tarry until Jesus came for him; and we have a record of it in Revelation. One part went up forever to be with the Lord, while another part remained on earth. Didn't John hear a trumpet and get caught up in the air?
     
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