Jesus wanted to live not to die

[amadeus]

There are different stories about how John met his end. I incline to the one that says he was martyred. The passage doesn't actually say John would never die.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Too many possibilities in that verse to use it to confirm the physical end of him one way or the other... without a definite revelation on it, which I have not had. Oh, I have received a message through it, but it has not to do with his physical death. It does mean that we should not be so concerned about the other guy when it is not really our business to look to deeply into God's will for him. But... what does it mean to me and God's will for my own end?
Each of us should have a purpose in God's plan if we are able to see it. Many of those who do not have such a vision don't want to... Others perhaps who have a vision have chosen to ignore it in favor of their own established plans... even in the what they consider the Way of God. This is a way to that delusion from God that comes with a lack or loss of love for truth.

I think he did tarry until Jesus came for him; and we have a record of it in Revelation. One part went up forever to be with the Lord, while another part remained on earth. Didn't John hear a trumpet and get caught up in the air?

Rather than being "caught up" I believe he responded to the words, "come up hither" Rev 4:1. This was a revelation given to John, but I am not so certain that it was the end of his course here as a man of flesh.

As to Jesus coming for him... in a sense Jesus comes, or has come, for each of us. It could like with the 10 virgins of whom only 5 had filled lamps.

 

[Giuliano]

Rather than being "caught up" I believe he responded to the words, "come up hither" Rev 4:1. This was a revelation given to John, but I am not so certain that it was the end of his course here as a man of flesh.

As to Jesus coming for him... in a sense Jesus comes, or has come, for each of us. It could like with the 10 virgins of whom only 5 had filled lamps.

It's good enough for me even if the words "caught up" are not used. I don't it was the end of his life here on earth,not if he wrote it down. Remember what Paul wrote?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Was that true for the "we" of the people of Corinth Paul was writing to? Or did they all die with none of them being changed? Does the "we" mean people Paul wasn't writing too? Could it have been true for them and also be true for us?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What does "die" mean? Is it an almost trivial fact, telling us our mortal bodies are going to die? Did we need the Bible to tell us that? Or is it saying something else? One way or another, the beast has to die. Why not let it die now and face the first judgment instead of keeping it alive to face the second?

I know I hold unusual views. I'm not offended if people disagree. Thanks for being tolerant.

 

[amadeus]

It's good enough for me even if the words "caught up" are not used. I don't it was the end of his life here on earth,not if he wrote it down. Remember what Paul wrote?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Was that true for the "we" of the people of Corinth Paul was writing to? Or did they all die with none of them being changed? Does the "we" mean people Paul wasn't writing too? Could it have been true for them and also be true for us?

I seldom, if ever, look to some future date for all of us. Rather the changing, if it occurs, I see in the here and now while we still have time. It is now we are not to be asleep as the disciples who slept in Gethsemene while Jesus prayed. Jesus spoke once to Peter about when he was converted. That conversion was the changing already. It did happen while Peter still walk around planet Earth as a man of flesh. So it must be with us, that is "we"... God provided all the necessary means with the sacrifice of Jesus and the empowering with the Holy Ghost, did He not?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What does "die" mean? Is it an almost trivial fact, telling us our mortal bodies are going to die? Did we need the Bible to tell us that? Or is it saying something else? One way or another, the beast has to die. Why not let it die now and face the first judgment instead of keeping it alive to face the second?

To die is one of those things we must understand carefully with the help of God. There is of course the death of the body of flesh in which each of us dwells here for our allotted time period. But... there is also being dead to God as were all men when they born of a woman; and there is being dead to ways of man.

Yes, the beast has to die. He is to be killed by the power of the new man within us. Who is the beast but the old man and all of his ways which he has learned so well before ever meeting the Master?
On that "appear the second time" I have gotten into trouble according to other. What is the first time was the time period we read about in the 4 written gospels and the second time is when we meet Jesus ourselves and he begins to dwell in us and we begin to see His face? What if that is the 2nd Coming?

I know I hold unusual views. I'm not offended if people disagree. Thanks for being tolerant.

Remember that to the very learned Elders, Pharisees, Priests, Sadducees, etc. of Israel when Jesus walked Jerusalem and the land of Israel 2000 years ago, he held very unusual views. They did not understand him and they disagreed with him. I am not saying you are always right as was Jesus, but we are to be growing. What is that about... growing?

 

[Giuliano]

On that "appear the second time" I have gotten into trouble according to other. What is the first time was the time period we read about in the 4 written gospels and the second time is when we meet Jesus ourselves and he begins to dwell in us and we begin to see His face? What if that is the 2nd Coming?

The trouble with that idea for me is that we weren't there then. How could we say he appeared to us then? He was on the earth in the flesh, but how many people "saw" who he was? It took a while before the disciples did. I'm open to revising my views; but for now, I lean to the idea the first appearance is when we first accept him. It is not a physical appearance. The second appearance may be alluded to later in Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I also found the following interesting:

1 Kings 9:1 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the Lord, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.

The first appearance was when Solomon asked to know how to govern properly. That request showed humility and love. That conversation is about Solomon. When the Temple was finished, the LORD hallowed it. That suggests to me God "finished" it. When He appears the second time, the conversation also involves Solomon's offspring and what will follow after Solomon exits this world.

 

[amadeus]

The trouble with that idea for me is that we weren't there then. How could we say he appeared to us then? He was on the earth in the flesh, but how many people "saw" who he was? It took a while before the disciples did. I'm open to revising my views; but for now, I lean to the idea the first appearance is when we first accept him. It is not a physical appearance. The second appearance may be alluded to later in Hebrews.

We were not there then? When is then for us and for Him? What is time to God? See Ecc 3:1-8

What was it that the disciples saw when they first began to follow him? What was it that they encountered later in him?

Yes, that could be the 1st appearance, but consider also the 1st and 2nd touch on a man's blind eyes

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

The first touch resulted in "through a glass darkly" and the second touch was the "face to face" vision.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

At the end of our faith, we have come to knowledge in place of faith. We have then come to seeing. What is faith?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

And then going back to Solomon's written words regarding the importance of our vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

I also found the following interesting:

1 Kings 9:1 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the Lord, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.

The first appearance was when Solomon asked to know how to govern properly. That request showed humility and love. That conversation is about Solomon. When the Temple was finished, the LORD hallowed it. That suggests to me God "finished" it. When He appears the second time, the conversation also involves Solomon's offspring and what will follow after Solomon exits this world.

Good verses: Again the move from the general direction to the specifics of the anticipated/expected fruit.

 

[Giuliano]

It probably is connected with the passages you gave. I don't think it means see him as a physical person. I think maybe Jesus appeared for the first time here:

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

And here to Peter:

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas.

 

[amadeus]

It probably is connected with the passages you gave. I don't think it means see him as a physical person. I think maybe Jesus appeared for the first time here:

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

And here to Peter:

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas.

Perhaps not on all of the details, but we are seemingly generally in agreement here. I try never to state my case lightly... Rather I continue to delve, reading and studying and talking with God. Especially now that I have been put outside of any man's church, some restrictions that did apply now do not. This I believe is a good thing... so long as I remain in touch with God, humbled before Him, rather than swelled up in what I might think that I know.

 

[Giuliano]

Perhaps not on all of the details, but we are seemingly generally in agreement here. I try never to state my case lightly... Rather I continue to delve, reading and studying and talking with God. Especially now that I have been put outside of any man's church, some restrictions that did apply now do not. This I believe is a good thing... so long as I remain in touch with God, humbled before Him, rather than swelled up in what I might think that I know.

This comes to mind.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[amadeus]

One more time on this... Jesus, the man of flesh cried out to his Father, why?

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Like every one of us here, Jesus was able to bleed and feel pain. His flesh could suffer and like each one of us he really did not want to suffer. Yet, already before this time in Gethsemene he already knew that suffering lay before him. Was there another way? "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me"

And we want to be like Jesus, right?

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus, the man of flesh cried out to his Father, why?

footnote:
Before the world was created, Jesus knew why and was totally obedient and agreeing with the plan of Jesus to be crucified.

And we want to be like Jesus, right?

Most people never want to be.
They do not want to share in His sufferings, not to be crucified with Him as all those born again are already.

They almost never find out they must suffer persecution as Jesus says, (not in the usa and britain anyway, thus the depravity and idolatry so strong )

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus' will to live was the will of the flesh

No.
What is of the flesh, is opposed to the Spirit. Jesus never sinned - He never allowed the flesh to overcome His perfect will of obedience to the Father.

People think , or may think, that the will of the flesh is to life, and that is quite common for the flesh to think that, yes.

But though Jesus suffered in the flesh, He was never overcome by the flesh so as to sin.

 

[Brakelite]

@amadeus hi brother, hope all is well with you and your wife.
I read through this thread and find it fascinating and can't for the life of me understand how I missed it first time around. It was an interesting conversation you had with @Enoch111 and @bbyrd009 . Some very deep questions... Was Jesus really tempted... Could He have sinned... Was His purpose to die, or live... And why did death hold such a terror to Him if He thought or knew He would be resurrected??? That last one I think will go a long way to explain the earlier ones if we can come to a right answer. Your earlier posts had some valid ideas, such as...

Jesus' will to live was the will of the flesh. Like in any of us there was an instinctive [proper usage?] desire or purpose to keep himself alive [physical life] and comfortable. Jesus showed us by example what God hopes for from each of us... to make our way equal to God's Way.

I agree that the flesh of Jesus was something which He had to battle. He was after all, human. But His connection to the Divine was such as have Him power to overcome in all things. We also can partake of that same Divine nature, and overcome as He did. But, I digress. I think the death of Jesus was fast more than just the death of a fleshly human being. In order for His death to be a full propitiation, He needed to die the same death all men must die... Not the first death wherein remains hope of a resurrection, but they second death... The final ultimate death of the whole person under the full condemnation of God... Body, soul, spirit. This was the death Jesus faced in the garden... full and complete separation from the Father. This was the death He did not want. This death, the death of a sinner, a death without hope of resurrection, that is what Jesus faced and His decision to go ahead was for our sake. The Father's will that no-one should perish. Jesus, in the final analysis, thought eternity without us not worth living for, and eternity with us worth dying for. He died the second death. Upon the cross, with the full weight and curse of sin laid upon, the presence of the Father no longer felt, Jesus had no sense of ever seeing the Father again. Yet He died, committing to the Father His life.

In baptism is not a person is to be immersed (with apologies to sprinklers) and kept under until all the dirt is gone that is until he is dead to anything opposed to God? This would be the death of the old man. So if the old man remains alive [what he calls life] while an very immature [baby] new born man has just begun, they continue to share their quarters within us, but not in the same rooms [so as not to be unequally yoked].

I am not of the opinion as so many others are, that the spirit of man is a separate being/personality other from the soul or mind of man. I believe they are in essence, the same. When man dies, the spirit that returns to God is merely the animating life force that have the man life. The man fully dies. There is not a part of man that continues to live... No part of man is immortal. And there is nothing in scripture that suggests he is, in fact, quite the opposite. So in baptism, what the person must do is in mind and heart surrender his whole being to death, that God may raise that whole being to life...a figure of resurrection. At Resurrection time, there is not a part of man in heaven that returns to Earth and joins up with the body that comes forth from the grave. The being that was once man, is dead. All of him. So baptism confirms I believe. The whole man is lowered into the water/grave, and whole the whole man is lifted out.

 

[bbyrd009]

I came that you might have life suggests to me that Jesus' will to live was not a will of the flesh, tho; i mean, He did puncuate the prayer with however, not My will, but Thine be done?

 

[Brakelite]

I came that you might have life suggests to me that Jesus' will to live was not a will of the flesh, tho; i mean, He did puncuate the prayer with however, not My will, but Thine be done?

He didn't come only to die methinks. I believe He came for another very important purpose... To reveal the true character of His Father. To this very day, Satan has succeeded in convincing man that God is severe, judgemental, harsh, unyeilding, selfish. And since the garden, man had made God in his own image, and all the false gods throughout mythology have been expressions of the worst traits of mankind on steroids. Jesus came to reveal the truth.

 

[amadeus]

@Joseph77

Amadeus said:
Jesus, the man of flesh cried out to his Father, why?

Joseph77 said:

footnote:
Before the world was created, Jesus knew why and was totally obedient and agreeing with the plan of Jesus to be crucified.

While you may be correct I would like to see a verse or verses which clearly state or in some way support that Jesus was there and agreed with the plan beforehand. None immediately come to my mind and after a cursory search of some older writings I might have about this I found nothing. I can understand why people might believe that but some scripture to support would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks.

Amadeus said:
And we want to be like Jesus, right?

Joseph77 said:
Most people never want to be.
They do not want to share in His sufferings, not to be crucified with Him as all those born again are already.

People may indeed do want to have what they see as the power and the unending Life of Jesus, but as you say, the price of getting them, if it is possible, is higher, I believe, than some/many may be willing to pay. Was Jesus, as a man, feeling the same hesitation or were his words to his Father in Matt 26:39 only said and/or written for our benefit?

They almost never find out they must suffer persecution as Jesus says, (not in the usa and britain anyway, thus the depravity and idolatry so strong )

The ones who are really standing for God now... even in Western "civilized" [so called] nations may now have to really pass such a test of what they say they believe as their nations [and fellow "Christians"?] seemingly are making it more difficult for the flesh to do 'whatever it takes'. Some, perhaps many of them, will say, yes, we have been given so much by God...

But... how many when directed to do what the young rich ruler was asked to do [Luke 18:22] will choose the way he did rather than choosing to follow the very steps of Jesus? For them/us it may not be money but it may be something else we hold dear to us. Consider for example Jephthah [Judges 11:30ff], who may have made a foolish vow, but seemingly was willing to keep that vow in spite of the cost to him... Can we keep our promises to God even when the going gets really rough?

Amadeus said:
"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

 

[Brakelite]

While you may be correct I would like to see a verse of verses which clearly state or in some way support that Jesus was there and agreed with the plan beforehand.

You probably thought of this so I would like to know your reasoning on why you would reject it as support for Joseph's idea?
KJV Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Brakelite]

You probably thought of this so I would like to know your reasoning on why you would reject it as support for Joseph's idea?
KJV Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I could add more, like the promise made by Jesus Himself to Adam and Eve in the garden. Did you know the more correct understanding of Eve's declaration when she gave birth to Cain would be a paraphrase saying something like, I have gotten from the Lord, the Lord. There is sound language reasoning that suggested Eve thought her firstborn was the promised Messiah, Savior. This suggests that God told Eve such a Savior was coming... And the preservation of Noah, the call of Abraham, the establishment of Israel and in particular the preservation and protection of the line of David, all the prophecies, all add up to a covenant made between Father and Son that would bring about mankind's salvation should they fall.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus was there and agreed with the plan beforehand

It is difficult to find all of the occurrences of "echad" because it has been covered up so much, but that helps if you can find those.
Remember The Father and Jesus are echad - from Genesis thru Revelation, from before Eternity and without end always, never being created - always one (echad).
Jesus never disobeyed, never rebelled, never sinned. He freely and obediently did all the plan of salvation, and all that was ever accomplished, planned, or done.
The cost ? His Life.
Our cost ? Our life.
Before being immersed in Jesus' Name, everyone should already be aware and know fully that they are giving up their life as martyrs, no longer having a life of their own, apart from Christ, to live. No more selfish. No more idols. No more independent of God. Ever.
Having given up all, repenting of all sin openly (not quietly in secret), receiving the new life in Christ Jesus forever ! No fear of death remains at all. No fear of trouble, torture, pain, sorrow, discomfort, imprisonment , no - no worries nor anxieties at all for anything. As seen throughout the NT in the faithful Ekklesia, and rarely if ever seen today.

 

[Joseph77]

And why did death hold such a terror to Him if He thought or knew He would be resurrected???

Death did not terrify Jesus at all. He knew and planned before the universe was created through Him all the details of His own necessary crucifixion.
Death does not terrify us at all today - the victory was won, it is ours, in Christ Jesus.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus hi brother, hope all is well with you and your wife.

We have been better, but physically we are OK. Two deaths this week but no funerals to attend. My wife's brother in San Francisco is too far away at our ages and health to attend in any case. The other was only 60 miles away in Oklahoma City, but his death attributed to Covid 19 and the present situation here remains, so our attendance is unlikely. Keep us in prayer on that. See my post under prayers.

I read through this thread and find it fascinating and can't for the life of me understand how I missed it first time around. It was an interesting conversation you had with @Enoch111 and @bbyrd009 . Some very deep questions... Was Jesus really tempted... Could He have sinned... Was His purpose to die, or live... And why did death hold such a terror to Him if He thought or knew He would be resurrected??? That last one I think will go a long way to explain the earlier ones if we can come to a right answer. Your earlier posts had some valid ideas, such as...

I agree that the flesh of Jesus was something which He had to battle. He was after all, human. But His connection to the Divine was such as have Him power to overcome in all things. We also can partake of that same Divine nature, and overcome as He did. But, I digress. I think the death of Jesus was fast more than just the death of a fleshly human being. In order for His death to be a full propitiation, He needed to die the same death all men must die... Not the first death wherein remains hope of a resurrection, but they second death... The final ultimate death of the whole person under the full condemnation of God... Body, soul, spirit. This was the death Jesus faced in the garden... full and complete separation from the Father. This was the death He did not want. This death, the death of a sinner, a death without hope of resurrection, that is what Jesus faced and His decision to go ahead was for our sake. The Father's will that no-one should perish. Jesus, in the final analysis, thought eternity without us not worth living for, and eternity with us worth dying for. He died the second death. Upon the cross, with the full weight and curse of sin laid upon, the presence of the Father no longer felt, Jesus had no sense of ever seeing the Father again. Yet He died, committing to the Father His life.

I have to consider all of that some prior to any direct comment. Thanks for your input.

I am not of the opinion as so many others are, that the spirit of man is a separate being/personality other from the soul or mind of man. I believe they are in essence, the same. When man dies, the spirit that returns to God is merely the animating life force that have the man life. The man fully dies. There is not a part of man that continues to live... No part of man is immortal. And there is nothing in scripture that suggests he is, in fact, quite the opposite. So in baptism, what the person must do is in mind and heart surrender his whole being to death, that God may raise that whole being to life...a figure of resurrection. At Resurrection time, there is not a part of man in heaven that returns to Earth and joins up with the body that comes forth from the grave. The being that was once man, is dead. All of him. So baptism confirms I believe. The whole man is lowered into the water/grave, and whole the whole man is lifted out.

Something happened to men which left them dead to God after the disobedience of their first carnal parents. Life was needed and Jesus came to bring the possibility of Life to dead people. I believe that he opened the closed Door/Gate leading to the Tree of Life. He also is now that Tree of Life for anyone who would eat of his Flesh and drink of his Blood. That's putting in simply. Of course, not just anyone can do those things worthily. What does it take to be worthy? Nothing that impossible now because of the Way that God has provided through His Son and the Holy Spirit.