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Jesus' Warning - Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by n2thelight, Feb 3, 2007.

  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    JesusReignsHere is a study that will help you out,not only you but all who choose to read it.How to Enjoy the Bible E. W. Bullinger 1916PART I INTRODUCTORYA revelation in writing must necessarily be given in "words." The separate words, therefore, in which it is given must have the same importance and authority as the revelation as a whole. If we accept the Bible as a revelation from God, and receive it as inspired by God, we cannot separate the words of which that inspired revelation is made up, or admit the assertion "that the Bible contains the Word of God, but is not the Word of God." The position conveyed by such an expression is both illogical and impossible. As we design this work for those who accept the Scriptures as the Word of God, we do not propose to offer any arguments in proof of its inspiration. The Bible is its own best proof of its inspiration. It claims to be "the Word of God"; and if it be not what it claims to be, then it is not only not a "good book," but is unworthy of our further attention. We cannot understand the position of those who assert and believe that many of its parts are myths and forgeries, while at the same time they continue to write commentaries upon it, and accept their emoluments and dignities for preaching or lecturing about it. If we were told and believed that a bank-note in our possession is a forgery, we certainly should take no further interest in it, beyond mourning the loss which we had sustained. Our action would thus be consistent with our belief. We write, therefore, for those who, receiving the claims of the Scriptures as being the Word of God, desire to study it so as to understand it and enjoy it. When this claim is admitted, and a course of study is undertaken in this spirit, we shall be at once overwhelmed with proofs as to its truth; and on almost every page find abundant confirmation of our faith. The Bible simply claims to be the Word of God. It does not attempt to establish its claim, or seek to prove it. It merely assumes it and asserts it. It is for us to believe it or to leave it. Hence we do not now attempt to prove or establish that claim; but, believing it, our aim is to seek to understand what God has thus written for our learning. Nor do we attempt to explain the phenomena connected with Inspiration. We have no theories to offer, or suggestions to make, respecting it. We have the Divine explanation in Acts 3:18, where we read: "Those things which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets...he hath so fulfilled."The particular "things" referred to here are "that Christ should suffer"; but the assertion is comprehensive and includes all other things "showed" by God. Note, that it was God who, before, had showed them. It was the same God who had fulfilled them. The "mouth" was the mouth of "all His prophets," but they were not the prophets' words. They were the words of God. Hence, concerning other words, it is written: "This Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of David, spake before concerning Judas" (Acts 1:16).It was David's "mouth," and David's pen, David's vocal organs, and David's hand; but they were not David's words. They were the words "which the Holy Ghost spake before concerning Judas." David knew nothing about Judas, David could not possibly have spoken anything about Judas. David's "mouth" spake concerning Ahithophel; but they were the words "which the Holy Ghost spake concerning Judas." David was "a prophet": and, being a prophet, he "spake as he was moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). Hence, in Psalm 16, he spake concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus (Acts 2:30,31). In the same way he "spake before concerning Judas." In like manner, in the Book of Exodus Moses wrote about the Tabernacle, but he himself did not and could not know what "the Holy Ghost signified" (Heb 9:8). Here, then, we have all that God condescends to tell us about the phenomena of inspiration. This is the Divine explanation of it; and this is all that can be known about it. It is not for us to explain this explanation, but to receive it and believe it; and there leave it. It is enough for us that God speaks to us; and that He says "Thus saith Jehovah." We do not question the fact; we believe it; and only seek to understand it. We desire to be in the position of those Thessalonian saints who, in this, "were ensamples to all that believe," and to whom it was written: "For this cause thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the Word of God, which effectually worketh in you that believe" (1 Thess 2:13). The Word of God is thus for those "that believe." The "Word" as a whole; and the "words" of which it is made up. They cannot be separated. It is Jeremiah who says (Jer 15:16): "THY WORDS were found,* and I did eat them; And THY WORD was unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart: For I am called by Thy name, O Jehovah Elohim of hosts." * )camaf (matza'), to discover. Genesis 2:20. Here referring to the historic fact (2 Kings 22:8; 2 Chron 34:14,15) of the finding the book of the Law by Hilkiah in the reign of Josiah. Here again, it is those who are called by Jehovah's name who feed upon His "words," and rejoice in His "Word." The same distinction is made in the New Testament by the Lord Jesus in John 17: "I have given unto them the WORDS which thou gavest me" (v 8) "I have given them thy WORD" (v 14)Those who are referred to in the word "them" are described seven times over, as having been "given" to Christ by the Father.* * See verses, 2, 6, 9, 11, 12, 24. These had "received" the words; these had "known surely"; these had "believed" (v 8). It is for such as these we now write, who receive, believe, read, and desire to feed upon the "words" of God; that the "word" of God may become "a joy, and the rejoicing" of the heart (Jer 15:16, RV). True, this joy within will be tempered by trouble without. Jeremiah prefaces the statement, quoted above, with the words immediately preceding it in verse 15: "For Thy sake I have suffered rebuke."** [email protected]:xe (cherpah), reproach; and so nearly always rendered. And the Lord Jesus after saying (John 17:14): "I have given them Thy WORD."immediately adds, "And the world hath hated them."Those who thus feed upon and rejoice in God's Word will soon realize their isolated position; but, in spite of the "reproach" and "hatred" of the world, there will always be the "joy and rejoicing" of the heart. It was so on another occasion when the neglected Word of God was brought forth, "AND EZRA OPENED THE BOOK,"the people were assured that "the joy of the LORD was their strength" (Neh 8:5,10,12,17). And we are told: "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading" (v 8).It must be the same with us if that "Word" and those "words" are to be the cause of our joy and rejoicing. And this is our object in writing now. We do not write for casual readers, or for those who read a daily portion of the Word merely as the performance of a duty and as a matter of form, but for those who "search the Scriptures," and who seek, in them, for Him of whom the Scriptures testify (John 5:39). Such a one was the eunuch who went up to Jerusalem from Ethiopia in Acts 8,. He sought the Saviour, but he did not find Him in Jerusalem. He found "religion" there, and plenty of it; but he did not find that Blessed One; for He had been rejected, "crucified, and slain." So the eunuch was returning, and was still seeking for the Living Word in the Written Word; "and, sitting in his chariot, read Isaiah the prophet." Being directed by the Divine Angel-messenger, Philip "ran thither to him and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said UNDERSTANDEST THOU WHAT THOU READEST?And he said: "How can I except some man should guide me? "And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him" (Acts 8:27-31).Philip's question (v 30) implies (in the Greek) a doubt on Philip's part as to whether the eunuch did really understand. And the eunuch's reply (v 31) implies a negative answer. It begins with the word "for," which is not translated either in the AV or RV. If we supply the ellipsis of the negative which is so clearly implied we can then translate the word gar (gar), for; thus; "[No]: for how should I be able unless some one should guide me."Of course, the Holy Spirit Himself is THE guide and teacher of His own Word. But sometimes, as in this case, He sends a messenger, and uses human instruments and agencies. The word to guide is odhgew (hodegeo), to lead or guide in the way.* It is this guidance which the ordinary reader stands in need of to-day; and never more than to-day, when so many would-be guides are "blind leaders of the blind." On all hands there are so many attractions to draw readers out of "the way" altogether; and so many "good" books and "helps" to lead them astray. * From odoV (hodos), a way; and hgeomai (hegeomai), to lead. It occurs only in Matthew 15:14; Luke 6:39; John 16:13; Acts 8:31 and Revelation 7:17. It is used both in its literal or proper sense (Exo 13:17, 32:34; Num 24:8; Deut 1:33); and in a Tropical sense (Psa 5:8, 23:3, 25:5,9, 77:20, etc.). We cannot pretend to be a Philip, or to have his special commission. But, without assuming to teach others on such an important subject we may at least tell them what lines of study we have ourselves found helpful; and what principles we have found useful in our own searchings of God's Word. But these will be useless unless we are first prepared to unlearn. If any think they know all, or that they have exhausted the Divine Word; or that what they set out to learn is only to be in addition to what they already know, instead of sometimes in substitution for it, then we shall be of little service to them: and they need not follow us any further. When we come to ask ourselves, and say, "Where did I learn this?" "How did I get this?" "Who taught me this?" it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God. All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination. With these introductory remarks we shall proceed to divide what we may call our essential and fundamental principles of Bible study into two parts: First, those connected with THE "WORD" as a whole; and Second: those connected with THE "WORDS" of which the Word is composed.http://philologos.org/__eb-htetb/1intro.htm
     
  2. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (kriss;11712)
    Jesus reigns you must learn how to rightly divide the word, All of Gods word is a letter from him to us. For you to think this way would nullify most of the bible. It can serve to help us understand what is being said by knowing to who is being addressed in scripture.But context is equally important To say things like Christ wasn't speaking to us when addressing the disciples/apostles. Is just plain wrong thinking and will make understanding his word impossible. It is us he was specifically addressing through the Apostles/disciples and prophets This is why Jesus said over and over; "Have you not heard, it is written...", and then He quotes one of the prophets.
    kriss: Do you understand the meaning of direct address? Perhaps when you were a child, your mother said something like this directly to you and your siblings with you-- "You clean your rooms before going out to play." Was she talking to the neighbor's children or any other children? No! She was talking to you about things that pertained to you specifically. That is direct address. When Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples, He was telling them about things that were to happen to THEM not to us. That is the simple use of language! It is to rightly divide the word of truth by taking things in their context and paying attention to audience relevance. When Jesus told His disciples to get a donkey upon which He could ride, was He speaking to us? Are we all to go get Jesus a donkey? Of course not! All Scripture is FOR us but not all Scripture is TO us. Taking Jesus at His word in Matthew 24 and understanding that He is speaking to His disciples about things there were to personally affect them, does not nullify anything. Why is everything about us? He was NOT addressing US when He said:"Take heed that no one deceives YOU.""And YOU will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that YOU are not troubled.""THEN they will deliver YOU up to tribulation and kill YOU, and YOU will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.""Therefore, when YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . . ""See, I have told YOU beforehand.""Now [YOU] learn the parable of the fig tree.""So YOU also, when YOU see ALL these things, know that it is near--at the doors!"Are there applications for us here? Of course! We should not be deceived by anyone. Christians throughout all generations have at times been persecuted and killed and hated. But that is not what Jesus is specifically talking about in Matthew 24. Similar to Matthew 10 when He sent the disciples out to the lost sheep of Israel and warned THEM about what to expect and how to conduct themselves, Matthew 24 clearly is directed at THOSE disciples right there with Jesus during that time and involves things that were to specifically happen to THEM. To take this passage any other way is to abuse the normal usage of language! Read Matthew 10--to whom was Jesus speaking? Who was going to suffer the things He warned them about? What historical setting is involved there?It is those who take the YOUs of Matthew 24 to mean any other than Jesus' first-century disciples right there with Him who must give a sound reason for promoting a suspension of normal language usage here. We must understand the difference between direct address in the context of historical events and general principles which cross generational boundaries. JesusReigns
     
  3. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (Denver;11711)
    That would be incorrect. Those particular chapters are written to the generation of the fig tree not the generation that was right there with Jesus. It speaks specifically to his coming like a thief in the night which still hadn't happened when Paul later wrote so it would quite obviously not be that generation.Matthew 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?It would be truly absurd to say, with you and I sitting here at our computers typing this out, that the world has ended!Agreed, but God also wrote this letter telling us what's going to happen and there's a reason we should know it.Matthew 24:32-34Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.Context, context, context!A little tin horn general is not the end of the world, not by any stretch of the imagination.Matthew 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Yes indeed! Context, context, context! But who is not understanding the context? First of all, the disciples asked about the end of the age (aion) and not the end of the world (kosmos)! The YOUs are not WE!Furthermore, a "generation of the fig tree" is a fabrication of men not found anywhere in Scripture. Notice that Luke adds "and all the trees" (Luke 21:29). Have you read Josephus concerning the tribulation of those days? You might more easily understand how that time was a time like none other. It is not the number of dead that is the issue for certainly more have died at other times throughout history. It was a famine that involved unimaginable atrocities. Jews killed each other in horrible ways. There was cannabalism. Mothers ate their own children. Furthermore, it is not the number of dead that makes something a great tribulation like none other. This was a time of judgment by God Himself against a people. Never before had He raised up a wicked army to obliterate a specific group of people in such a horrendous way(see Matthew 23 and that wicked generation of Jews) and never again will He do so!JesusReigns
     
  4. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    JRAfew questionsWhen did this happen?Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27. The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived. And some how I missed this oneMatthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."Now let me help you out with the fig treeMark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"Jesus is giving a command to His elect here, "learn a parable of the fig tree". It is necessary for you to know this parable, or you will never understand the consummation of the end of this earth age. You have to know a little about agriculture to understand the teachings of our Heavenly Father. You don't plant a fig tree, you set out shoots, and it is from that shoot that the tree is formed and it then brings forth leaves. Those leaves are the new growth, meaning that this shoot is yet tender. In this state, this fig tree will not produce any fruit. This particular fig tree produces both the good and the bad figs, that we read of in Jeremiah 24, about the two baskets of figs. Remember that one basket set was of Good figs, and the other basked was Bad figs.The "parable of the fig tree" started in the garden of Eden, and most churches have turned this parable into a joke and a fairy-tale about apples. What happened in the garden of Eden, happened in a fig grove, and after what was done there, Adam and Eve sowed fig leaves together to cover the parts of their body that did the evil act. They made aprons to cover their private parts, because what happened there cause children to be born, one child was Cain, the son of Satan, and the other was Abel, the son of Adam. The parable of the fig tree is the identifying those children of Cain, which are called the Kenites, and the evil destruction that they are bringing on God's children, the offspring of Adam, through Seth.Jesus didn't say, maybe you should learn this parable of the fig tree, He commanded us to do it. So the horticulture of this parable is that the fig tree always puts forth shoots, and Jeremiah 24 symbolized when Judah would return to Jerusalem, and Judaea, and that happened in 1948, at the establishment of the nation of Israel, as we know it today. Full control of the city was after the war with the Arabs of 1967. This return to establish this Jewish state is important because it is part of the "parable of the fig tree", that Jesus commanded us to learn.Mark 13:29 "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.""These things" that Jesus is speaking about are these seven seals of that are the subject of Mark 13. In the verse just before this, it told us that summer was nigh and the time for Christ harvest of this earth age was going to take place. So when you see the events of these seals take place, than know that the end of this earth age of the flesh is coming to a close. Some of the signs of the end, as we saw earlier, are the establishing of a Jewish state, the new world order taking place, nations align up as biblically prophesied, and remember that when the tribe of Judah returned to their home land, it hadn't happened since their were booted out by General Titus in 70 A.D. There is not need to guess on this matter, for when you know the parable of the fig tree, God sets the date, and we are to observe what He has written to us through His Word.Never before since the crucifixion of Christ has the Jews returned to Judaea as a nation. Remember that this was part of the subject, from verse fourteen. "But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" The command then was to flee Judaea, that is where the fig tree was to be set out.Mark 13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."Jesus is telling His disciples and thus we can count on this happening absolutely. The generation that Jesus is speaking of here is the the generation that is present to see the shoot planted in Jerusalem and Judaea. The generation that started when Jerusalem came into the hands of the Jews and the nation was establish, and it happened in 1948. Even though Jerusalem and the west bank never was completely taken unto 1967, be that as it is now, it still took place many years ago and we are living in that final generation. All the things that pertain to the seven seals will be witnessed by our generation and take place right before our eyes. Jesus is warning us to watch out for them, all of them, or you will be deceived and become part of Satan's bride.
     
  5. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    I was interested also in your topic until you started bashing people for believing in the Rapture, or fly away fairy tale as you call it!It's interesting that you claim that we decieve with our doctrine, when you are making statements like "Famine" not meaning physical famine but a hunger for the word of God. Who is doing the twisting now?
     
  6. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (n2thelight;11735)
    JRAfew questionsWhen did this happen?Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27. The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived. And some how I missed this oneMatthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."Now let me help you out with the fig treeMark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"Jesus is giving a command to His elect here, "learn a parable of the fig tree". It is necessary for you to know this parable, or you will never understand the consummation of the end of this earth age. You have to know a little about agriculture to understand the teachings of our Heavenly Father. You don't plant a fig tree, you set out shoots, and it is from that shoot that the tree is formed and it then brings forth leaves. Those leaves are the new growth, meaning that this shoot is yet tender. In this state, this fig tree will not produce any fruit. This particular fig tree produces both the good and the bad figs, that we read of in Jeremiah 24, about the two baskets of figs. Remember that one basket set was of Good figs, and the other basked was Bad figs.The "parable of the fig tree" started in the garden of Eden, and most churches have turned this parable into a joke and a fairy-tale about apples. What happened in the garden of Eden, happened in a fig grove, and after what was done there, Adam and Eve sowed fig leaves together to cover the parts of their body that did the evil act. They made aprons to cover their private parts, because what happened there cause children to be born, one child was Cain, the son of Satan, and the other was Abel, the son of Adam. The parable of the fig tree is the identifying those children of Cain, which are called the Kenites, and the evil destruction that they are bringing on God's children, the offspring of Adam, through Seth.Jesus didn't say, maybe you should learn this parable of the fig tree, He commanded us to do it. So the horticulture of this parable is that the fig tree always puts forth shoots, and Jeremiah 24 symbolized when Judah would return to Jerusalem, and Judaea, and that happened in 1948, at the establishment of the nation of Israel, as we know it today. Full control of the city was after the war with the Arabs of 1967. This return to establish this Jewish state is important because it is part of the "parable of the fig tree", that Jesus commanded us to learn.Mark 13:29 "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.""These things" that Jesus is speaking about are these seven seals of that are the subject of Mark 13. In the verse just before this, it told us that summer was nigh and the time for Christ harvest of this earth age was going to take place. So when you see the events of these seals take place, than know that the end of this earth age of the flesh is coming to a close. Some of the signs of the end, as we saw earlier, are the establishing of a Jewish state, the new world order taking place, nations align up as biblically prophesied, and remember that when the tribe of Judah returned to their home land, it hadn't happened since their were booted out by General Titus in 70 A.D. There is not need to guess on this matter, for when you know the parable of the fig tree, God sets the date, and we are to observe what He has written to us through His Word.Never before since the crucifixion of Christ has the Jews returned to Judaea as a nation. Remember that this was part of the subject, from verse fourteen. "But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" The command then was to flee Judaea, that is where the fig tree was to be set out.Mark 13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."Jesus is telling His disciples and thus we can count on this happening absolutely. The generation that Jesus is speaking of here is the the generation that is present to see the shoot planted in Jerusalem and Judaea. The generation that started when Jerusalem came into the hands of the Jews and the nation was establish, and it happened in 1948. Even though Jerusalem and the west bank never was completely taken unto 1967, be that as it is now, it still took place many years ago and we are living in that final generation. All the things that pertain to the seven seals will be witnessed by our generation and take place right before our eyes. Jesus is warning us to watch out for them, all of them, or you will be deceived and become part of Satan's bride.
    n2thelight: You are reading things into the passage that are not there! Jesus clearly said to His disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. That is what He said!The fig tree is a fig tree is a fig tree--that's what Jesus said. And Luke (21:29) adds and "all the trees." Jesus' disciples standing right there with Him were to recognize the sign of His coming in their generation just as easily as they recognized the signs of summer. That is all the fig tree means--nothing more.The nation which was created by the UN (and not by God) in 1948 bears little resemblance to OT Israel. All the records and genealogies were lost in AD 70 along with the temple. Those who call themselves Jews today are not OT Jews--they are an entirely new entity.Look again at Mark 13, n2thelight. What does it plainly say? "When YE shall see these things." WE are not the YE! This is common language usage. You are reading into these verses something they do not say.''There is nothing difficult about Matthew 24:30. When did Caiaphas and the rulers of the Sanhedrin "see" Jesus sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven? Jesus clearly said that THEY would see that. See Matthew 26:64!--"Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and the rulers) will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven!" Such cloud comings were typical descriptions of God's coming in judgment. This is prophetic apocalyptic judgment language employed by the OT prophets in such passages as Isaiah 13:9, 10, 13 and Isaiah 34:3-5. Notice also what Stephen saw as he was being stoned--He "saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.'" Stephen saw; the others did not.When did God literally shake the heavens (Isaiah 13:13)?When did God literally move the earth out of her place? (Isaiah 13:13)?This is judgment language used by the prophets and Jesus (Matthew 24:30) to express God's coming in judgment upon a nation or people.When were the mountains literally melted with blood? (Isa. 34:3).When were the host of heaven literally dissolved? (Isa. 34:4).When were the heavens literally rolled up as a scroll? (Isa. 34:4).When did the host of heaven literally fall down? (Isa. 34:4).Jesus said "This generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place"--including verse 30. He came in the clouds of judgment upon that generation of apostate Jews (that generation upon whom He pronounced the woes of chapter 23). The Christians, seeing the signs spoken of by Jesus, fled the city and did not perish with the Jews. Josephus, a Jewish historian and eyewitness of these events, substantiates this.'Luke further clarifies what the abomination was--"when YOU (My disciples standing right here with Me) see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near" (Luke 21:20). Jesus later tells THEM (not us) to "watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape ALL these things that are about to come to pass" (Luke 21:36)What did those YOUs Jesus spoke to those disciples right there with Him mean to them? Clearly, THEY would have understood that He was talking to them about things that were to personally happen to them. The same is true of Matthew 10 where Jesus warns them of similar things that were to happen to them after He sent them out to the lost sheep of Israel. How does He complete His discourse there? "YOU (My disciples to whom I am now speaking) will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES" (10:23).Where do you get this idea of an earth age of the flesh? Where does the Bible say that? Again, the disciples were not asking about the end of the world (kosmos) but the end of the age--the OT age of Judaism that ended with the destruction of the city and the temple in AD 70.ps. Where did you get your information about "desolation." (Roger Christopherson, "Matthew 24: Prophecy of End-time Warnings, the Great Tribulation" [theseason.org Bible Study]?) If he is your source, how do you know he is correct? Have you studied Greek? The word in the Greek is eraimoseos--"desolation." It occurs in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It is never translated "desolator."JesusReigns
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    N2 you can not reason with a person you thinks the word of God is not written to us.
     
  8. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    N2 you can not reason with a person you thinks the word of God is not written to us.
    kriss: I assume you are speaking of me. I have merely been quoting the words of Scripture. Did Jesus not address His first-century disciples in Matthew 24? Is it not clear through simple language that He was speaking of things that were to happen to THEM in THEIR lifetimes. Why does everything have to be about us?Are there not times in history that are specifically for certain people and not for others? Of course! We were not involved in the plagues of Egypt--but that event is certainly for us. In it we see the faithfulness and omnipotence of God! We were not participants in the parting of the Red Sea. That event was not directly for us. But in it we learn of God!We were not there when Jesus spoke these words to His first-century disciples. Why are you so offended that Jesus might not be speaking about something that directly involves you? Does that make Him love you less? Does that make Him less involved in the affairs of your life? No! Never. Even if Jesus' second coming would involve this generation, does that not leave out all other generations? What about them? Don't they get to experience some fulfillment of prophecy?Here is my problem. I find it difficult to reason with someone who will not use the most fundamental principles of sound hermeneutics and Bible exegesis to understand a passage. What do Jesus' words clearly say? They were not written in a vacuum. The disciples were right there with Him as He spoke. His words meant something to them as He spoke them directly to THEM. The disciples struggled with the same issues you have. They questioned Jesus about John's remaining until He came. Jesus answered "What is that to you?" What is it to you if Jesus chose that generation (first-century, pre-AD 70) to be the one to which He would return? Did He not say just that in Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, and Matthew 26:64? JesusReigns
     
  9. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    JRJust one question,and then I think I will just respectfully agree to disagree,but you know what the good part about all this is?We will find outMy question is this,what part of Biblical prophecy is written to us?
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    JesusreignsThis is why Jesus said over and over; "Have you not heard, it is written...", Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "If you cant understand these simple statement you will never get God or his word.I would sugest you learn how to rightly divide the word,
     
  11. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    N2 you can not reason with a person you thinks the word of God is not written to us.
    I agree
     
  12. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    JesusreignsThis is why Jesus said over and over; "Have you not heard, it is written...", Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "If you cant understand these simple statement you will never get God or his word.I would sugest you learn how to rightly divide the word,
    What's your point, kriss? I have no problem with Jesus' words. Can we not live on every word that come from the mouth of God even though they were not first written directly to us? All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable--all of it. When did I say otherwise?Let's just take one verse. The disciples asked Jesus questions (Matthew 24:3) and He answered THEM (Matthew 24:4). "And Jesus answered and said to THEM: 'Take heed that no one deceives YOU."Whom did Jesus say was not to be deceived by the things that followed?Is this not simple language? Who was not to be deceived?JesusReigns
     
  13. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Jody says:was interested also in your topic until you started bashing people for believing in the Rapture, or fly away fairy tale as you call it!It's interesting that you claim that we decieve with our doctrine, when you are making statements like "Famine" not meaning physical famine but a hunger for the word of God. Who is doing the twisting now? UH.. its from Amos 8:11 and the prophesy is of the end times... 11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: its pretty clear that most people rely on their preacher to teach them at one verse or passage per Sunday oh that way they'll get through in about 175 years... the whole nation cannot answer the simplest questions about the Bible..its true and so sad ... and those who may read it do not dig to see what the original languages really say and mean..
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? What is the question? when and whatWould you have us not believe the answer? or would you have us believe Jesus a liar sense the world did not end in that time period. You may know what the words say but you seem to have no idea how to put them into context. For that I am sorry for you miss the glory of God that is his Word.
     
  15. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? What is the question? when and whatWould you have us not believe the answer? or would you have us believe Jesus a liar sense the world did not end in that time period. You may know what the words say but you seem to have no idea how to put them into context. For that I am sorry for you miss the glory of God that is his Word.
    kriss: It does not say the end of the world but the end of the AGE. There's a big difference. Jesus has just pronounced judgment upon that wicked generation of Jews--they were guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. Note that it is THEIR house (not God's) that is to be left unto them desolate. Jesus has forever abandoned it with its worthless sacrifices and empty system of laws. With the destruction of the city and the temple, the age of Judaism came to end and the eternal age of the church began. It is in that context that the disciples ask their question. They connected the destruction of the temple with the ending of the age.That is the context. I am not missing the glory of God's Word. I am taking Him at His word! Why do you accuse me of not having any idea of how to put words in their context? Respectfully, I am the one providing a context here, not you.JesusReigns
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You are completely mistaken here this is the current world age it will end when Christ foot lands upon the Mt. of Olives and issues in the Millenium age Secondly Christ Crucifixion issued in the age of the gentiles to open salvation to all but the age of the gentiles will end and again God will turn his attention back to the Jews and Israel your theory is based on the church replacement theory and is not biblical but a teaching of men.Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. So was Jesus lying here? sense this has never happened? Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, THIS IS THE SECOND COMING THAT IS THE SUBJECT did that happen back then? (context,context) and of the end of the world? So see it depends upon which version you read whether it says world or age so you must go to the original language to get the right word and meaning2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 3:12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
     
  17. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Yes indeed! Context, context, context! But who is not understanding the context? First of all, the disciples asked about the end of the age (aion) and not the end of the world (kosmos)! The YOUs are not WE!
    I'm afraid it is you who doesn't have the grasp on the Greek word for age, aion. The world never ends, in fact. A new heaven and a new earth come, but the world doesn't end. Surely, as a scholar of the Bible, you should know this:Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.That verse in itself contains the obvious answer to your question. The end of the age comes when the first heaven and the first earth spoken of in this verse pass away. That's the obvious end of the age.
    Furthermore, a "generation of the fig tree" is a fabrication of men not found anywhere in Scripture. Notice that Luke adds "and all the trees" (Luke 21:29).
    Hey if you want to be blind to the Parable of the Fig Tree then go right ahead. However, when my Lord says to learn it, I will learn it. You again show that you're not very familiar with Scripture. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 take place after Luke 21. It's quite clear from Scripture in Luke 21 that he is in the temple whereas Mark 13 and Matthew 24 find our Savior on the Mt. of Olives. If two chapters say learn it and one merely uses slightly different phraseology...Mark 13:28-29Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
    Have you read Josephus concerning the tribulation of those days?
    I've read Josephus and give me a break if you think that this little old tin horn general was the tribulation that Christ spoke about.Mark 13:19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.The number of WWIcasualties, both military and civilian, was about 40 million — more than 19 million deaths and 21 million wounded. Common WWII estimates put the numbers at 72 million.Father is not a liar.WWI and WWII eclipse 70 AD by thousands of times and this is still not the tribulation. The sad thing is, the tribulation will be brought on by people who don't know how to read what is right there in front of them.If we went by this silly little "you" meaning those only in front of Jesus, we apparently don't have to do much of anything Jesus said.
     
  18. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    You are completely mistaken here this is the current world age it will end when Christ foot lands upon the Mt. of Olives and issues in the Millenium age Secondly Christ Crucifixion issued in the age of the gentiles to open salvation to all but the age of the gentiles will end and again God will turn his attention back to the Jews and Israel your theory is based on the church replacement theory and is not biblical but a teaching of men.2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 3:12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.http://www.christianityboard.com/earth-age...-study-t79.html
    The word in 2 Peter 3 for elements is stoicheia. It NEVER has anything to do with the physical chemical make up of the earth. It ALWAYS deals with the principles or precepts taught by men. It is something under which one can be in bondage. Galatians 4:3--"were in bondage under the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world."Colossians 2:8--"after the RUDIMENTS (stoicheia) of the world . . . ."Hebrews 5:12--"the first PRINCIPLES (stoicheia) of the oracles of God."These are the ELEMENTS that were to "melt" with "fervent heat!"I do NOT advocate replacement theology. I advocate fulfillment or continuation theology. The people of God are the same people of God which have always been--those of faith. It was the same in the OT under the old covenant--only those who believed (as Abraham who was saved before circumcision and before the OC)! There has always been and will always be only one people of God--those who believe!I assume you are referring to Zechariah 14 when you speak of Christ standing on the Mt. of Olives? Where does it say there that Jesus will COME DOWN to stand on the Mt. of Olives? All this verse indicates is that He is already standing there. Nowhere does Zechariah say how He got there! You are making an assumption.What we do know is that Jesus did come to the earth (John 1:14) and during that first coming He indeed did stand on the Mt. of Olives. This is the logical conclusion.Furthermore, where does a thousand-year millennial reign follow in Zechariah? It does not! You are reading your millennial perspective into this passage, kriss!2 Peter 3 contains similar language to Isaiah 13:9, 10, 13 and Isaiah 34:4-5.The descriptions of the upheavals in the heavens and earth were figurative--they were used to expression God's coming in judgment upon a nation or people. In Isaiah 34:3, for example, did the mountains literally "melt" with blood? In Isaiah 34:4, were the host of heaven "dissolved?" And if they were, when did God restore them again? Were they literally "rolled up" as a scroll? Did ALL their host fall down--literally? And if they did, how did our earth continue? When did God cause them to actually fall down and when did He put them back again? This is figurative language--taken any other way creates something that is ridiculous.What is the meaning of "heaven and earth?" If God shook the physical heavens (Isa. 13) and moved the pysical earth out of her place, our world would have ceased to exist. But no one takes those verses literally in Isaiah 13 and 34! Why do we then insist on taking such language literally in the NT (e.g. Matthew 24; Mark 13, Luke 21 and 2 Peter 3)?Isaiah 13 deals with the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 34 deals with God's judgment of Edom. Oftentimes such descriptions of upheavals in the heavens and earth pertain to Gold's judgments against a nation. When Jesus uses this same language, He is not talking about the physical heavens and earth, but with the apostate nation of Israel--the Old heavens and earth. That system of Judiasm was coming to a close and the new heavens and new earth were about to burst forth (AD 70)--the new covenant age. Those old heavens and old earth were at the time the writer of Hebrews wrote already"becoming obsolete" and "ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8).JesusReigns (now)
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    who said anything about Zec. I am speaking of Lords Day. Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the angels .
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    And by the way I am perfectly aware of what rudiments means and just because you chose a meaning that fits your way of thinking doesnt make it the right context or biblical if it does not fit the rest of the word or Gods plan.[​IMG] the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
     
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