Jesus's "siblings"

[Mr E]

I've provided actual evidence, scriptural verses and testimonies that corroborate each other, whereas those who state Jesus's had half-siblings have provided zilch, nor attempted to answer the questions in post #3 like I did that give them the opportunity to defend their position.

You've made no effort at all to establish that they were not (as scripture calls them directly) his actual brothers and sisters.

This is direct evidence of your bias and your insistence that they 'must be' something else.

Scripture simply doesn't require, nor does it directly support your notion, which is based solely on your beliefs.

 

[Sigma]

To be absolutely honest with you @Sigma, you have shown nothing of the sort.

Well, you admitted to not having read my post, but if decide to, you'll see that I've provided scriptural verses and testimonies that corroborate each other, whereas you haven't provided anything.

I'm not claiming any such thing.

You claimed the following: "Jesus had brothers and sisters - siblings in other words - all born of the same mother who was Mary." Were you referring to those called Jesus's brothers and sisters in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4?

 

[Pearl]

You started a similar thread on 19th August 2023 - so why do you need another one?

Were they Jesus's siblings? Started by @Sigma

 

[Sigma]

You've made no effort at all to establish that they were not (as scripture calls them directly) his actual brothers and sisters.

Again, nowhere in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3, or anywhere else in Scripture, are Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) called the sons of Joseph and Mary, nor are they called Jesus's "siblings," or "half-siblings," but rather His "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers). One of the definitions for this Koine Greek word is "kinsman, or relative," and one's kinsman/relative could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.

Why are you assuming and claiming as fact that Jesus's kinsmen/relatives Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His half-siblings when that isn't what they're called in Scripture, and you haven't presented nothing to show that they were His half-siblings? I, however, have provided something, that of scriptural verses and early Christian testimonies that corroborate each other.

 

[Mr E]

Again, nowhere in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3, or anywhere else in Scripture, are Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) called the sons of Joseph and Mary, nor are they called Jesus's "siblings," or "half-siblings," but rather His "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers). One of the definitions for this Koine Greek word is "kinsman, or relative," and one's kinsman/relative could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.

Why are you assuming and claiming as fact that Jesus's kinsmen/relatives Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His half-siblings when that isn't what they're called in Scripture, and you haven't presented nothing to show that they were His half-siblings? I, however, have provided something, that of scriptural verses and early Christian testimonies that corroborate each other.

I've never claimed anything of the sort. Scripture says they were his brothers and sisters.

Since you are the one insisting-- the burden is on you to prove otherwise. You haven't.

Your suggestion is not proof. Your insistence is not proof. Your repetition is not proof.

 

[Sigma]

I've never claimed anything of the sort. Scripture says they were his brothers and sisters.

Do you believe Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and unnamed sisters in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 were His half-siblings?

 

[Sigma]

I'm not claiming any such thing.

You claimed the following: "Jesus had brothers and sisters - siblings in other words - all born of the same mother who was Mary." Were you referring to those called Jesus's brothers and sisters in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4?

 

[Mr E]

Do you believe Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and unnamed sisters in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 were His half-siblings?

Why would I? That's not what scripture states.

 

[Sigma]

Why would I? That's not what scripture states.

In fact, in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 it states that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers). One of the definitions for this Koine Greek word is "kinsman, or relative," and one's kinsman/relative could be a sibling (full/half), cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and context shows that definition applies in those verses. So, what type of family members of Jesus do you believe these four men were?

 

[Mr E]

In fact, in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 it states that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers). One of the definitions for this Koine Greek word is "kinsman, or relative," and one's kinsman/relative could be a sibling (full/half), cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and context shows that definition applies in those verses. So, what type of family members of Jesus do you believe these four men were?

It says “brothers.” I don’t equivocate.

 

[Wick Stick]

Again... blah blah blah

You might as well say...

Rather than addressing anything you said, I'm just going to repeat myself.

I understand that repetition is a good method of persuasion, but it's lousy for conversation. /unfollowed

 

[Sigma]

You might as well say...

I understand that repetition is a good method of persuasion, but it's lousy for conversation. /unfollowed

Please try and make sense when you talk.

 

[Cassandra]

Oh boy. does adelphos also mean brother?


You are posting the same thing you did before.

ἀδελφός

adelphos

brother, fellow countryman, …

Why does it have to mean what You pick?

We are not going to agree. I don't know why you push this so hard (well, yes I do, but...) We wouldn't agree on that either.

 

[Mr E]

Let me try to help you with the original story of "James" --it's in the book of Genesis.

In case you aren't familiar- I'll offer this short primer. There was this guy named Abraham who had a few kids. One of them was named Issac and Issac had two boys-- the eldest was called Esau, and the younger was called James. He substituted himself in his brother's place as rightful heir and supplanted him.

As the story goes-- James had 12 sons-- by four different women, all of which scripture calls "brothers." It doesn't call only Benjamin James' brother, since they were the only two born to James' second wife Rachel... rather they were all brothers. They were not called cousins or half-brothers in scripture-- simply "brothers."

Now you might choose to differentiate between each of them, but that is your choosing. Scripture doesn't. They are all James' sons. His tribes.

And the same goes for the New Testament James-- the brother of Jesus.


Be honest with yourself and others. Scripture doesn't support your assertion. You have to impose your understanding on the text. Never a good practice.

Take care @Sigma I've grown tired of the drumbeat here.

 

[Sigma]

Let me try to help you with the original story of "James" --it's in the book of Genesis.

In case you aren't familiar- I'll offer this short primer. There was this guy named Abraham who had a few kids. One of them was named Issac and Issac had two boys-- the eldest was called Esau, and the younger was called James. He substituted himself in his brother's place as rightful heir and supplanted him.

As the story goes-- James had 12 sons-- by four different women, all of which scripture calls "brothers." It doesn't call only Benjamin James' brother, since they were the only two born to James' second wife Rachel... rather they were all brothers. They were not called cousins or half-brothers in scripture-- simply "brothers."

Now you might choose to differentiate between each of them, but that is your choosing. Scripture doesn't.

And the same goes for the New Testament James-- the brother of Jesus.


Be honest with yourself and others. Scripture doesn't support your assertion. You have to impose your understanding on the text. Never a good practice.

Take care @Sigma I've grown tired of the drumbeat here.

...context/lineage shows what kind of brothers they were. I asked you what kind of brothers you believe Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were to Jesus and you couldn't answer, much less provide evidence for it.

However, I was able to answer the question saying that they were Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen/relatives, specifically sons of His uncle, and thus His cousins, as well as provide scriptural verses and early Christian testimonials to show that. You may reject the evidence I've provided, but hopefully you're wise enough to admit that providing something is better than absolutely nothing.

 

[Sigma]

Oh boy. does adelphos also mean brother?


You are posting the same thing you did before.

ἀδελφός

adelphos

brother, fellow countryman, …

Why does it have to mean what You pick?

We are not going to agree. I don't know why you push this so hard (well, yes I do, but...) We wouldn't agree on that either.

:facepalm:

The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos;brother) is just the singular form of its plural form "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers), both of which are used in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3: "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" (Matt. 13:55); "Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?"

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ
Greek transliteration: adelphos
Simplified transliteration: adelphos

Numbers
Strong's number: 80
GK number: 81

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 343
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-2a

Gloss: brother, fellow countryman, neighbor (often inclusive in gender); by extension a fellow believer in the family of faith; in the plural brothers regularly refers to men and women

Definition: a brother, near kinsman, or relative; one of the same nation or nature; one of equal rank and dignity; an associate, a member of the Christian community

The context in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3 is what shows that its definition "kinsman, or relative" applies in these verses, but one's kinsman/relative could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. So, what type of brothers (kinsmen/relatives) of Jesus do you believe Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were? Or, do you think a different definition applies in these verses? These are simple questions, ones where we don't need to agree on the answer. Or, do you have a problem answering them?

Sigma is just trying to prove that Mary was a virgin perpetually.

You're either deliberately misrepresenting me, or are assuming what my argument is without actually knowing, because the final paragraph of my opening post summarizes my position, which is that Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were not His half-siblings, but rather His cousins. Note: This in itself does not prove Mary of Joseph was a perpetual Virgin.

And while it may not prove Mary was a virgin in and of itself, that is where it is headed.

It's precisely because what I'm refuting in this thread doesn't in and of itself prove the Blessed Virgin Mary's perpetual virginity that that is why the latter is not where this thread is headed, at least not by my doing.

 

[Mr E]

There is James bar Zebedee-- or Big James

There is James bar Alpheuus-- (James the Less) or Little James

There is James, the brother of Jesus---- James bar Joseph

Why is this hard? There are 3 James that are mentioned by Matthew; James, Brother of Jesus, Joseph, Simon and Judas, James son of Zebedee and brother of John and James, son of Alphaeus.

There is also a whack of Mary's and so to identify James as Mary's son isn't that helpful.

 

[Sigma]

There is James bar Zebedee-- or Big James

There is James bar Alpheuus-- (James the Less) or Little James

There is James, the brother of Jesus---- James bar Joseph

Why is this hard?

It's not hard.

• Nowhere in Scripture is anyone other than Jesus called the son of Mary of Joseph.
• Nowhere in Scripture is anyone called Jesus's sibling.
• In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers). This Koine Greek word has the following definitions: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman, or relative," etc. The context in the aforementioned verses shows the definition "kinsman, or relative" applies, and one's kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.
• In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show that (i) James and Judas of the four in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3 were the apostles James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), the brother of Jesus's mother's spouse, and thus the four were Jesus's cousins, and (ii) this James was the same person as "James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), "James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19), "James the Just," "James the bishop of Jerusalem" (Ac. 15:13-21), and "James the author of the Epistle of James" (Jas. 1).
• The other "James" was apostle James of Zebedee, or "James the Great."

Any questions about this?

 

[Mr E]

It's not hard.

• Nowhere in Scripture is anyone other than Jesus called the son of Mary of Joseph.
• Nowhere in Scripture is anyone called Jesus's "sibling," nor "half-sibling."
• In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers). This Koine Greek word has the following definitions: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman, or relative," etc. The context in the aforementioned verses shows the definition "kinsman, or relative" applies, and one's kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. The evidence I provided in the opening post shows that James and Judas of the four were apostles James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), and that Alphaeus was the brother of Jesus's mother's spouse, and thus the four were Jesus's cousins. The opening post also shows that this James is the same person as "James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), "James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19), "James the Just," "James the bishop of Jerusalem" (Ac. 15:13-21), and "James the author of the Epistle of James" (Jas. 1).
• The other "James" is apostle James of Zebedee, or "James the Great."

Any questions about this?

No questions. Just a statement.

That’s wrong. Specifically— this>>

Nowhere in Scripture is anyone called Jesus's "sibling

-is wrong.

James is specifically called the brother of Jesus. For the special learners in class— a brother is a sibling.

 

[Sigma]

No questions. Just a statement.

That’s wrong. Specifically— this>>

Nowhere in Scripture is anyone called Jesus's "sibling

-is wrong.

James is specifically called the brother of Jesus. For the special learners in class— a brother is a sibling.

The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos;brother) is the singular form of its plural form "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers), both of which are used in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3: "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" (Matt. 13:55); "Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?"

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ
Greek transliteration: adelphos
Simplified transliteration: adelphos

Numbers
Strong's number: 80
GK number: 81

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 343
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-2a

Gloss: brother, fellow countryman, neighbor (often inclusive in gender); by extension a fellow believer in the family of faith; in the plural brothers regularly refers to men and women

Definition: a brother, near kinsman, or relative; one of the same nation or nature; one of equal rank and dignity; an associate, a member of the Christian community

The context in Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3 shows its definition "kinsman, or relative" applies in these verses, and one's kinsman/relative could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., but information needed to determine the type of family members is lacking in those same verses. You assert Jesus's four brothers (kinsmen/relatives) were His siblings, or half-siblings, but you haven't provided evidence to support that.

I, however, provided evidence in the opening post showing that (i) James and Judas of the four in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were apostles James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), the brother of Jesus's mother's spouse, and thus the four were Jesus's cousins, and (ii) this James was the same person as "James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), "James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19), "James the Just," "James the bishop of Jerusalem" (Ac. 15:13-21), and "James the author of the Epistle of James" (Jas. 1). The other "James" was the apostle James of Zebedee, or "James the Great."