John 14:6 and Context

[Davy]

There is so much self assured confusion in this thread, and it's all based on the false doctrines that a soul is immortal and that Heaven is the Christian's reward. Not only does God not state twice in Eze. 18 that the soul can die, Christ plainly stated in Jhn 3:13 no human being besides Himself will ever go to Heaven. Genesis does not show God putting a soul in Adam; it shows God breathing life into what was a pile of dust that was made in His likeness. God plainly told Adam he was dust and that he would return to being dust when he died, and again there is nothing said about how a soul would come out of Adam when he died.

Christ plainly quoted David's psalms in Matt. 5 where He said ruling this earth is the Christians' reward. Christ is preparing offices and positions of authority for His people and will bring those rewards here, as Zech. 14 and Rev. 22 clearly shows. Nobody should be subscribing to pagan doctrines of the immortal soul or going to heaven if they would just believe what their bibles say and unlearn the false traditions of men.

Moreover...

Not many are able to understand the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, which is sad since it is clearly written about.

The soul can die, eventually, in the future "lake of fire" at the GWT Judgment. Thus your false claim that those who disagree with the Jew's 'dead in the ground' theory is defunct. The soul is only made immortal in Christ Jesus, and only on the day of Jesus' coming. Apostle Paul clearly showed this in the 1 Corinthians 15 Chapter.

What you obviously missed, is how Paul covered the idea of a body of 'incorruption' that still has a 'mortal' soul (i.e., "this mortal") can is liable to perish. The distinction is in the Greek. But I'll make it easy for you, since you choose not to read what Paul said there in 1 Corinthians 15:53.

1. "corruptible" = flesh body, perishable, a body ONLY, of dust of the earth, the "image of the earthy".
2. "incorruption" = the "spiritual body"; a body ONLY, of spirit; the "image of the heavenly".
3. "this mortal" = the soul, the person, the id; is made immortal by Christ at His coming; but for the wicked is still in a liable to perish state along with their spiritual body at the "second death" of Rev.20.
4. "immortality" = only for those in Christ Jesus who continue with Him to the new heavens and a new earth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Although Christians are no part of the world Byrd, we do live in it of course. In fact we are to be obedient to them according to Romans 13:1-7, but not if they contradict God's laws Acts 5:29

i noticed "they" arent much on mountain climbing...when in doubt, go higher!

Jesus did not continue to exist for over 2 days sir, he was dead.

id love to know the significance of "3 days" before i die...the Hosea arg seems rather unsatisfying. Doesnt even seem to mean much to most Jews

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello @Robert Gwin,

It is you, and not your organisation, which has subscribed to this forum, and is entering into debates. It is you I am addressing and not your organisation. As a fellow participant on the forum, I would expect you to speak concerning your own understanding of what the Scriptures say, and not that of your organisation. If you are approaching these subjects as their representative, and not as an individual believer, then, with respect, I do not want to know.

When you can come and talk as Robert Gwin, and not as a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, then I will be happy to engage with you.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Fact is maam, Jehovah is not a God of disorder. His people have been organized since the very first covenant. Are we perfect? Far from it, however people of God have rules and regulations they have to live by. If you do not like living under rules that is fine, as Jehovah forces no one to serve Him. It is voluntary! What I speak, while it may have a hint of being my words, is not of my own maam. I am here to help anyone who is rightly disposed for everlasting life to be reached. Our assignment is to plant and water seeds of truth, Jehovah makes it grow depending upon the type of soil those seeds land on. I have accepted the assignment given by Jesus himself, and have become his disciple, through other disciples teaching me all the things he has commanded. Now that I am one of his disciples it is up to me to do the same, which you can see me do here daily. If you are willing to learn, I am willing to share those things Jesus commanded, simple as that.

 

[Robert Gwin]

'But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,
sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.'
(Heb 10:12)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

You asked if I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is now reigning.

The prophecy as to Christ's enemies' being put under His feet' (Psalms 110:1) is referred to six times in the New Testament. Christ is now at God's right hand 'until His enemies shall have been placed (as) a footstool for His feet.' (see Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42; Acts of the apostles 2:34; Hebrews 1:13 and Hebrews 10:12-13). Then He will arise and use this footstool, treading His enemies under His feet (Psalms 18:37-50). This is the subject of the book of Revelation; and the result and fulfilment of it is recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:25, which speaks of Christ's after-reign, 'For He must reign till He hath put (lit., shall have put) all enemies under His feet.' So that the two acts are carefully distinguished. First, the placing of the footstool; and then the using of it; The one is at the beginning of the 'day of the Lord,' the other is at the end of His reign.

* I have now tied up that loose end from reply#50.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I guess I should now ask, do you think that his enemies have been cast to the earth as his footstool yet? If you answer is yes, then I gather that you believe Jesus is now reigning as King, is that correct?

 

[Robert Gwin]

He was not dead. His body was.

He descended into the heart of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison there, says scripture- but obviously you and the Watchtower are forced to ignore that and all the related scriptures to remain in your error.

Do you disagree with the Bible's definition of death Curt? Ecc 9:5,6,10; Ps 156:4

 

[Robert Gwin]

i noticed "they" arent much on mountain climbing...when in doubt, go higher!

id love to know the significance of "3 days" before i die...the Hosea arg seems rather unsatisfying. Doesnt even seem to mean much to most Jews

3 days was prophesied Byrd, and that was what happened. Jesus died and was put in the grave on Nisan 14, and resurrected on Nisan 16, rising on the 3rd day, a little over two complete days.
(Matthew 16:21) . . .Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up. . .

 

[post]

Both Paul and Jesus are in heaven we believe Post. No neither were resurrected physically.

then you are in great error, and in conflict with Christ Himself, denying even the very gospel itself: that He came, He died, and He Himself rose, He Himself ascended and He Himself will return.

And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit! And He said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have!
And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb and He took, and did eat before them.
And He said unto them,
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning Me.
Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them,
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day
(Luke 24:36-46)

​

denying the resurrection is not Christian. it is cultic. it is unbelief.
Luke 24 here exactly defines your false teaching as unbelief. be converted!

​

 

[charity]

I guess I should now ask, do you think that his enemies have been cast to the earth as his footstool yet? If you answer is yes, then I gather that you believe Jesus is now reigning as King, is that correct?

Hello @Robert Gwin,

Please read carefully what I have written and then you will have no need to ask this question.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Fact is maam, Jehovah is not a God of disorder. His people have been organized since the very first covenant. Are we perfect? Far from it, however people of God have rules and regulations they have to live by. If you do not like living under rules that is fine, as Jehovah forces no one to serve Him. It is voluntary! What I speak, while it may have a hint of being my words, is not of my own maam. I am here to help anyone who is rightly disposed for everlasting life to be reached. Our assignment is to plant and water seeds of truth, Jehovah makes it grow depending upon the type of soil those seeds land on. I have accepted the assignment given by Jesus himself, and have become his disciple, through other disciples teaching me all the things he has commanded. Now that I am one of his disciples it is up to me to do the same, which you can see me do here daily. If you are willing to learn, I am willing to share those things Jesus commanded, simple as that.

Hello @Robert Gwin,

The God and Father or our Lord Jesus Christ, is certainly not the author of confusion.

As a part of the Church which is the Body of Christ, small though that part may be, I praise God for His mercy and grace, and sit at His feet, in Christ Jesus, and learn of Him, through prayerfully reading His written word, which reveals His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Living Word, through His Spirit, in hope of eternal life through His Name.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[post]

The Bible never states Jesus rose bodily

Luke 24, John 20, Acts 10 all describe very specifically that He was bodily resurrected. in Luke He Himself explicitly tells them He is flesh & bone because they think He is only a spirit. it directly addresses & unquestionably refutes the false cultic doctrine you are trying to spread.

moreover in John 2 He Himself says "speaking of His body" that He would raise it.

you say 'the Bible never states' but that's a lie, Mssr. Gwin.
even in your JW butchered & edited so-called-Bible, they neglected to remove or change these things.
do not lie.

 

[post]

I say he was resurrected as a spirit being

and Jesus Himself emphatically says and demonstrates that He is bodily risen and bodily ascended.
so what we have here is clear:

• you actively reject Him & His Word
  
• you teach false doctrine
• you are a cultist, not a Christian

 

[CadyandZoe]

'And if I go and prepare a place for you.
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto Him,

"Lord, we know not whither Thou goest;
and how can we know the way?"​

Jesus saith unto him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."​

(John 14:3-6)

Hello there,

Isn't it amazing that you can read certain verses over and over again, and then one day you do so again and see something that you had not seen before.

I have quoted John 14:6 many times, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.' Yet looking at it now within it's context once again, I am seeing something within it that I have not previously seen.

The Lord was talking to His disciples in John 14:1+, telling them that He was going to His Father's house, where there are many mansions, and that He is going to prepare a place for them. Then He would return and receive them unto Himself, that where He was, there they may be also.

Then He tells them that they knew both where He was going and the way to get there. Thomas says, 'Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?' Yet the Lord had told them that He was going to His Father, and that He would return and receive them unto Himself. He had not spoken in terms of location or given a map reference, it was sufficient that He had told them Whom He was to go to, and that He would return to bring them to be with Him, being the only true and living way to the Father.

Does this not show that self effort is useless in this regard? For the only way to the Father is by the Lord coming to receive them to Himself. It will require either resurrection, or for those who are 'alive and remain' at His return a change in a moment in the twinkling of an eye as in 1 Thessalonians 4. There is no talk here of the disciples going to be with the Lord at death, for they cannot get there without the Lord's physical presence coming to take them there. He, physically, is the only way to the Father.

The disciples will physically go to the Father, not as disembodied spirits, but as living souls, in possession of a new body prepared for them (1 Corinthians 15). The Lord Jesus, Himself, bodily, is the only way to get there.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Agreed. And another implication is that Jesus himself will decide who to bless with eternal life and who will not be blessed with eternal life. It's his choice.

 

[charity]

Agreed. And another implication is that Jesus himself will decide who to bless with eternal life and who will not be blessed with eternal life. It's his choice.

Hello @CadyandZoe,

Will you please explain why you say this?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Curtis]

I am one of Jehovah's witnesses sir.

Where’s Jehovah’s witnesses in the new covenant we are in?

The only witnesses called for in the New Testament is Jesus witnesses, per Acts 1:8.

 

[Curtis]

We believe Rev 20:6 has happened Chris. Do you think Jesus has been enthroned as King in the heavens now?

Jesus is never King in heaven.

Old Testament and New Testament prophecies clearly state that Jesus will come back to earth and rule His kingdom on David’s throne, in Jerusalem. Forever.

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.



Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”

Zep 3:14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!

Zep 3:15 The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil.

Zep 3:16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: “Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak.

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello @CadyandZoe,

Will you please explain why you say this?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, I will try.
Consider one of the topic verses.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

I'm not suggesting that Jesus' choice is explicitly taught in this verse, but the implication is there depending on what he means by the phrase "but by me." Our answer will depend on our assumption concerning Jesus' standpoint from which he is making that claim. Is he speaking as teacher/guide, or is he speaking as Lord?

If teacher, then no man cometh unto the Father unless he understands and affirms what Jesus taught. The way is not obvious, the path is narrow. Without a teacher and a guide, one will get lost and never make it.

If Lord, however, no man cometh unto the Father unless Jesus himself allows it. Jesus has the final say as to who will enter and who will not.

In a sense, both are true. As Jesus says elsewhere, the most significant, determinative factor is whether or not Jesus "knows" the man. It isn't enough for the man to simply study and learn what Jesus taught. And it isn't enough for the man to walk according to the principles Jesus taught, as opposed to say, Buddha, or Gandhi or Confucius. Jesus must "know" the man; that is, Jesus and the man must have established a relationship one to the other. Matthew 7:22-23

We could look at other verses.

 

[charity]

Yes, I will try.
Consider one of the topic verses.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

I'm not suggesting that Jesus' choice is explicitly taught in this verse, but the implication is there depending on what he means by the phrase "but by me." Our answer will depend on our assumption concerning Jesus' standpoint from which he is making that claim. Is he speaking as teacher/guide, or is he speaking as Lord?

If teacher, then no man cometh unto the Father unless he understands and affirms what Jesus taught. The way is not obvious, the path is narrow. Without a teacher and a guide, one will get lost and never make it.

If Lord, however, no man cometh unto the Father unless Jesus himself allows it. Jesus has the final say as to who will enter and who will not.

In a sense, both are true. As Jesus says elsewhere, the most significant, determinative factor is whether or not Jesus "knows" the man. It isn't enough for the man to simply study and learn what Jesus taught. And it isn't enough for the man to walk according to the principles Jesus taught, as opposed to say, Buddha, or Gandhi or Confucius. Jesus must "know" the man; that is, Jesus and the man must have established a relationship one to the other. Matthew 7:22-23

We could look at other verses.

'And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto Him,

"Lord, we know not whither thou goest;
and how can we know the way?"​

Jesus saith unto him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. ... '​

(Joh 14:3-6)

Hello @CadyandZoe,

My understanding of these words is quite different to your own. For the Lord is speaking to those who are already His; and is telling them that He will come and receive them unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also. He is telling them that He is the only means by which they can be where He is, there is no other way. He only is the resurrection and the life.

'But now is Christ risen from the dead,
and become the firstfruits of them that slept. ... '
' ... But every man in His own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'
(1Co 15:20 & 23)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus

 

[Robert Gwin]

then you are in great error, and in conflict with Christ Himself, denying even the very gospel itself: that He came, He died, and He Himself rose, He Himself ascended and He Himself will return.

And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit! And He said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have!
And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb and He took, and did eat before them.
And He said unto them,
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning Me.
Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them,
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day
(Luke 24:36-46)

​

denying the resurrection is not Christian. it is cultic. it is unbelief.
Luke 24 here exactly defines your false teaching as unbelief. be converted!

​

During his time on earth, Jesus appeared both in spirit form and bodily. Being that his flesh and blood were given in sacrifice, his appearance in bodily form was not his original body. He appeared as every other recorded spirit being who appeared to us in the flesh as spirit beings are not able to be seen, but again not in his body. How do we know this, no one, not even his closest friends recognized him. That is the simple truth Post. I certainly do not deny the resurrection as I clearly stated that we believe Jesus is in heaven. You have to be resurrected to be there. Is not this found in the Bible?:
(Acts 2:32) . . .God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello @Robert Gwin,

Please read carefully what I have written and then you will have no need to ask this question.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Best to speak clearly maam. We believe Jesus is the now reigning King, therefore we have entered into the last days of this system.

Hello @Robert Gwin,

The God and Father or our Lord Jesus Christ, is certainly not the author of confusion.

As a part of the Church which is the Body of Christ, small though that part may be, I praise God for His mercy and grace, and sit at His feet, in Christ Jesus, and learn of Him, through prayerfully reading His written word, which reveals His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Living Word, through His Spirit, in hope of eternal life through His Name.

Who is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ maam? Eph 1:3

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[charity]

Best to speak clearly maam. We believe Jesus is the now reigning King, therefore we have entered into the last days of this system.

Hello @Robert Gwin,

With respect, I have already told you that I am not interested in discussing the doctrinal stance held by your organisation.

When you, Robert, have read the word of God, and not that provided by your organisation and the other literature it provides: and can speak concerning it, without recourse to that organisation, but on the basis of your own conviction of faith; then we can discuss what you choose.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris