John 17:1-5 What About Its Context?

[WalterandDebbie]

9-5-25

Saturday 2-22-25 7th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Shebat 23 5785 64th. Winter Day


The pre-existence of Christ is a key doctrine in Christian theology, which teaches that Jesus Christ, also known as Yeshua, existed before his human birth in Bethlehem. Here are some important points related to this doctrine:

1. John 1:1-3:
   • "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made."
   • This passage from the Gospel of John identifies Jesus (the Word) as existing with God from the very beginning and being instrumental in creation.
2. Colossians 1:15-17:
   • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
   • This emphasizes Christ's role in creation and his existence before all things.
3. Philippians 2:6-7:
   • "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
   • This passage suggests that Jesus existed in the form of God before coming to earth in human form.
4. Hebrews 1:2-3:
   • "But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."
   • This further affirms Christ's role in creation and his divine nature.
5. Micah 5:2:
   • "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
   • This Old Testament prophecy is often interpreted by Christians as referring to the Messiah's pre-existence.

The concept of Christ's pre-existence highlights his divine nature and eternal existence , emphasizing his role in creation and his continued presence throughout history.

If there's a specific aspect of the pre-existence of Christ you're interested in, or if you'd like to explore related topics, feel free to let me know!
How Are We Suppose To Believe?
Belief is a deeply personal and complex journey, often influenced by many factors like upbringing, personal experiences, teachings, and spiritual encounters. Here are some key steps that can help in developing and nurturing belief:

1. Seek Understanding:
   • Study scriptures and teachings from reliable sources.
   • Engage in discussions with knowledgeable and like-minded individuals.
2. Prayer and Meditation:
   • Spend time in prayer, seeking guidance and clarity from God.
   • Meditate on the teachings and reflect on their meaning.
3. Faith Community:
   • Join a faith community or congregation where you can share experiences and grow together.
   • Participate in communal worship and activities.
4. Personal Experience:
   • Reflect on personal experiences and how they align with your beliefs.
   • Look for moments in your life where you felt a connection to something greater.
5. Live Out Your Beliefs:
   • Put your faith into action by following the principles and values taught in your religion.
   • Practice love, kindness, and compassion towards others.
6. Ask Questions:
   • Don't be afraid to ask questions and seek answers to deepen your understanding.
   • Engage with mentors, religious leaders, or trusted friends who can offer guidance.

Remember, belief is a continuous journey, and it's okay to have doubts and seek answers along the way. Your faith can grow stronger through exploration, reflection, and practice.

Is there a particular aspect of belief or faith that you would like to explore further? I'm here to help!
How Are We Suppose To Believe In Christ?
Believing in Christ, or coming to faith in Him, involves a few significant steps and can be a transformative journey. Here's how many Christians approach this process:

To be continued:

 

[WalterandDebbie]

9-5-25

Continued from: John 17:1-5 What About Its Context?

1. 1. Hearing the Gospel:
      • Understand the message of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Read the Bible, particularly the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), which recount Jesus' life and teachings.
   2. Seeking Understanding:
      • Ask questions and seek answers from trusted sources, whether it's pastors, mentors, or theological texts. Engage in discussions and study to deepen your understanding.
   3. Prayer:
      • Spend time in prayer, asking God to reveal Himself to you and guide you in your faith journey. Express your doubts, fears, and desires for faith openly.
   4. Repentance:
      • Acknowledge and turn away from past wrongdoings and sins. Repentance is a key aspect of Christian faith, signifying a sincere change of heart and direction.
   5. Faith and Trust:
      • Place your trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Believe in His sacrifice for your sins and His resurrection, which promises eternal life.
   6. Baptism:
      • Many Christian traditions practice baptism as a public declaration of faith. It symbolizes dying to the old self and rising to a new life in Christ.
   7. Living Out Faith:
      • Follow Christ's teachings in your daily life. Love others, serve, forgive, and live a life that reflects your faith.
   8. Community:
      • Join a community of believers for support, fellowship, and growth. Participate in communal worship, study, and service.
   9. Continuous Growth:
      • Faith is an ongoing journey. Continue to study, pray, and seek God's presence in your life. Be open to growth and transformation.
   Remember, everyone's faith journey is unique. It's okay to have questions and to seek understanding at your own pace. If you have specific questions or need guidance on any part of this journey, feel free to ask!
   
   
   John 17:1-5 What About Its Context?
   Sure! Let's explore the context of John 17:1-5. This passage is part of what is known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer, which takes place during the Last Supper, just before Jesus' arrest and crucifixion. Here are the verses:
   
   John 17:1-5:
   
   1. After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
   2. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
   3. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
   4. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
   5. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
   Context and Significance:
   
   1. Setting:
      • This prayer occurs during the Last Supper, a significant event where Jesus shares a final meal with his disciples and imparts crucial teachings. The mood is somber as Jesus is aware of his impending suffering and death.
   2. Jesus' Relationship with the Father:
      • Jesus addresses God as "Father," emphasizing their unique and intimate relationship. The prayer highlights the unity between the Father and the Son.
   3. The Hour Has Come:
      • Jesus refers to "the hour," which signifies the appointed time for his crucifixion and the fulfillment of his mission on earth. This phrase acknowledges that Jesus' death is not a random event but a divine plan.
   4. Glorification:
      • Jesus prays for the Father to glorify him so that he can glorify the Father in return. This mutual glorification is rooted in Jesus completing his mission, which includes his death, resurrection, and ascension.
   5. Eternal Life:
      • Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ. This underscores the importance of a relationship with God through Christ as the essence of eternal life.
   6. Completion of the Mission:
      • Jesus mentions that he has completed the work given to him by the Father. This work involves teaching, healing, and ultimately offering himself as a sacrifice for humanity's sins.
   7. Pre-Existence and Glory:
      • Jesus asks to be glorified with the same glory he had with the Father before the world began. This statement reflects the belief in Jesus' pre-existence and divine nature, affirming his eternal relationship with the Father.
   This prayer encapsulates Jesus' dedication to his mission, his deep connection with the Father, and his desire for believers to experience eternal life through a relationship with God. It's a profound and moving part of the Gospel of John, offering insight into Jesus' thoughts and priorities at a pivotal moment in his ministry.
   
   John 17:6-26
   
   John 17 KJV
   --
   Love always, Walter and Debbie
   
   My Faith and Belief Site (tripod.com)
   

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Walter and Debbie,

The pre-existence of Christ is a key doctrine in Christian theology, which teaches that Jesus Christ, also known as Yeshua, existed before his human birth in Bethlehem.

I do not accept the pre-existence of Jesus before his conception and birth. Jesus was a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection, not a God-man. The verses you quote have been adequately discussed elsewhere. For John 17:5 refer Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

Greetings Walter and Debbie,

I do not accept the pre-existence of Jesus before his conception and birth. Jesus was a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection, not a God-man. The verses you quote have been adequately discussed elsewhere. For John 17:5 refer Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

Why would you pick and choose what you do and do not believe of the word of God, only believing part? Do you not know that by the measure you use it shall be measured back to you?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings ScottA,

Why would you pick and choose what you do and do not believe of the word of God, only believing part?

I believe ALL of the Word of God. It is one harmonious whole from Genesis to Revelation and the focus is upon our Lord Jesus Christ, his unique birth, his development, his ministry and his crucifixion, death and resurrection, his exaltation and his future kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

Greetings ScottA,

I believe ALL of the Word of God. It is one harmonious whole from Genesis to Revelation and the focus is upon our Lord Jesus Christ, his unique birth, his development, his ministry and his crucifixion, death and resurrection, his exaltation and his future kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

But you have said you do not believe what is written of Jesus being before the world. That is a contradiction to what you have just claimed. Do you not see that?

 

[amigo de christo]

Greetings Walter and Debbie,

I do not accept the pre-existence of Jesus before his conception and birth. Jesus was a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection, not a God-man. The verses you quote have been adequately discussed elsewhere. For John 17:5 refer Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

Lets examine what you just said . You said that the pre existance of JESUS before HIS conception and birth , YOU do NOT BELEIVE .
Okay .
DO you believe JESUS can lie . OF course you dont believe that .
SO
let me show you HIS OWN WORDS
While praying to THE FATHER in HEAVEN .
And now , O FATHER , Glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE before the Word WAS .
You might wanna screech , stomp on the brakes right now and this instant .
Because blasphemy, And woe wail it is blasphemy to call JESUS A LIAR , will not be tolerated on my watch .
You might wanna get back into the bible to learn for yourself . But think not that i accuse you
nor that its only YOU i tell this too . I have told this to many . GET IN THAT BIBLE for yourselves . AND Right now
this instant . cause men on both sides and all sides ARE FLEECING THIS PEOPLE .

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA and Greetings amigo de Christo,

But you have said you do not believe what is written of Jesus being before the world. That is a contradiction to what you have just claimed. Do you not see that?

I agree with what is written concerning Jesus in John 17:5 and in my first post I stated the following:

For John 17:5 refer Psalm 8:4-6.

I consider that Jesus in John 17:5 is alluding to the glory mentioned in Psalm 8:4-6. Starting one verse earlier:
Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psalm 80:17 (KJV) Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
Although these words are spoken by David, they reveal God's thoughts in the context of the Creation, and actually before the foundation of the world, hence Jesus' words in John 17:5. God foresaw that after the Creation Adam would sin and there would be necessary to raise up a Son of Man who would fulfil the role originally designated for Adam, and this person would be granted dominion over the earth and be exalted to glory and honour. Please also notice that Psalm 8:4-6 is written in the past tense, sometimes called the prophetic past, and this fact also is part of Jesus' words and thoughts in John 17:5, as if that glory has already been bestowed, even though it was future, because of the surety of fulfilment. In other words, despite the great trial to be placed upon Jesus, he would not fail, but he will be raised from the dead and receive the glory anticipated.

You might wanna screech , stomp on the brakes right now and this instant .
Because blasphemy, And woe wail it is blasphemy to call JESUS A LIAR , will not be tolerated on my watch .
You might wanna get back into the bible to learn for yourself .

I appreciate your participation despite the rant. I am not sure if my answer above will in any way satisfy you when you communicate as you have done.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

I agree with what is written concerning Jesus in John 17:5 and in my first post I stated the following:
I consider that Jesus in John 17:5 is alluding to the glory mentioned in Psalm 8:4-6. Starting one verse earlier:
Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psalm 80:17 (KJV) Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
Although these words are spoken by David, they reveal God's thoughts in the context of the Creation, and actually before the foundation of the world, hence Jesus' words in John 17:5. God foresaw that after the Creation Adam would sin and there would be necessary to raise up a Son of Man who would fulfil the role originally designated for Adam, and this person would be granted dominion over the earth and be exalted to glory and honour. Please also notice that Psalm 8:4-6 is written in the past tense, sometimes called the prophetic past, and this fact also is part of Jesus' words and thoughts in John 17:5, as if that glory has already been bestowed, even though it was future, because of the surety of fulfilment. In other words, despite the great trial to be placed upon Jesus, he would not fail, but he will be raised from the dead and receive the glory anticipated.

Hi Trevor,

The confusion (I'll call it that) here, is the confusion placed upon all language by God. I can tell you that the issue is that the times of this world do not allow for a proper understanding, which was not to be fully known and understood until the times are fulfilled--until "time no longer" (Revelation 10:6-7). Which I do not say as an act of discussion, but of revelation, as it is written.

In God's timeless reality--everything in this world is past tense--then made manifest during the times of this world. As such, explaining John 17:5 as involving both what was before the foundation of the world, as well as by the history and timeline of this world, is indeed true--but not by combining them. The one was (before the world was) and the other, is merely the revelation of what was--the one Light and the other darkness, of which there is no actual communion.

This world exists as the words of a book that was written, and now only read. Therefore, it was correct for at time to describe or explain things the way that you have--but no longer (time no longer). This is that time foretold--not the end of time, but the time of "time no longer" fulfilling "all truth" (John 16:13), proceeding the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound (Revelation 106-7)--a time before the end of time.

These things I declare as one appointed.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA,

The confusion (I'll call it that) here, is the confusion placed upon all language by God.
These things I declare as one appointed.

Your first and last sentences are not in any way clear to me. and also all that you have stated in between is also obscure to me at least. Are you "appointed"? Time for me to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

Greetings again ScottA,

Your first and last sentences are not in any way clear to me. and also all that you have stated in between is also obscure to me at least. Are you "appointed"? Time for me to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor

Name some "appointed." Would your answer be the same for them as well--that you would "move on?"

Why would any bible-believing person knowing many examples of those appointed, not rather expect "the same yesterday, today, and forever?" Has God changed, that you should now turn away from those sent?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA,

Why would any bible-believing person knowing many examples of those appointed, not rather expect "the same yesterday, today, and forever?" Has God changed, that you should now turn away from those sent?

What you have stated so far is sufficient for me to disregard your claim. I am partly amused at your supposed position, and the sketchy support you supply to verify this. Also if Post #9 is typical of your style, then I am not interested. I am in a different fellowship environment.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

Also if Post #9 is typical of your style, then I am not interested. I am in a different fellowship environment.

The Priests and the Pharisees were "in a different fellowship environment" also, and they too were "partly amused at your supposed position", but of John. This is that same scenario unto the Gentiles--unto the Church. Squander the opportunity if you will. You have been served.

 

[Taken]

9-5-25


The pre-existence of Christ is a key doctrine in Christian theology, which teaches that Jesus Christ, also known as Yeshua, existed before his human birth in Bethlehem. Here are some important points related to this doctrine:


The concept of Christ's pre-existence highlights his divine nature and eternal existence , emphasizing his role in creation and his continued presence throughout history.

Agree.

Elaborating…Two fold -(and Power)

1) Creation….one thing.
2) Making……another thing.

Creation…of what was NOT Spoken into Existence.

Ability …to Speak into Existence what WAS NOT, into WHAT IS…..Supreme POWER.

Gods attribute——> Supreme POWER
Gods POWER—-> Title CHRIST
Gods WILL—-> Shall be DONE
Gods WILL—->Creation—->FINISHED
Gods WORD—>Speaks—> Named JESUS
Gods MAKER—-> Called Gods WORD
Gods MAKER—-> FINISHED—->Gods WILL

The End? No.

The Creations->Called ManKIND.

The WORD, continuously reveals to generation after generation His Truths.

The MAKER, continuously reveals to generation after generation HIS Finished WORKS of God…
THAT individual manKIND can ALSO Freely Choose to Accept…
And Participate DOING the SAME “Finished Works”…
* By, Through, OF Their own True WORD…
* By, Through, OF Laying Down Their OWN Body, unto Death.
~(Crucified with Christ Jesus)
~(Martyred Accept Bodily Death For their Belief)

FINISHED works (completed) —->DONE…BY manKIND

OT men who bodily died naturally in Belief
NT men who bodily die naturally in Belief
God Saved and Shall Save.

NT —> men who Died naturally, Die Naturally, HAVING Their own FINISHED WORKS completed…
Christ Jesus Saved and Shall Save.

Saved, Restored, Quickened, BY The:
Offering of God (His WILL)
Word Of God (Jesus)
Power Of God (Christ)
Act Of God (Baptism)
Baptizer (Lamb Of God)

[BIF and WHEN[/B]a man Freely Chooses Gods Offerings….

Determines..
THEN a man has FINISHED the mans will.

WHEN and HOW a man has FINISHED the mans will.

Determines…
WHEN that man Shall be Redeemed.

Before,
During,
After

Tribulations and Wrath sent down from Heaven upon the whole world.

Determines…
WHO shall Redeem that man.

Christ the Lord Jesus… Son.
God …Father

Yes…The Father and Son (so called) IS Revealed they Are One and The Same…
Lord God Almighty, without Beginning or Ending…
Supernaturally Omnipresent, Filling particular Roles, at particularTimes, with specific Names, Titles, Descriptions… for the teaching of manKind who themselves are naturally limited to their presence one place at a time.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Agree.

Elaborating…Two fold -(and Power)

1) Creation….one thing.
2) Making……another thing.

Creation…of what was NOT Spoken into Existence.

Ability …to Speak into Existence what WAS NOT, into WHAT IS…..Supreme POWER.

Gods attribute——> Supreme POWER
Gods POWER—-> Title CHRIST
Gods WILL—-> Shall be DONE
Gods WILL—->Creation—->FINISHED
Gods WORD—>Speaks—> Named JESUS
Gods MAKER—-> Called Gods WORD
Gods MAKER—-> FINISHED—->Gods WILL

The End? No.

The Creations->Called ManKIND.

The WORD, continuously reveals to generation after generation His Truths.

The MAKER, continuously reveals to generation after generation HIS Finished WORKS of God…
THAT individual manKIND can ALSO Freely Choose to Accept…
And Participate DOING the SAME “Finished Works”…
* By, Through, OF Their own True WORD…
* By, Through, OF Laying Down Their OWN Body, unto Death.
~(Crucified with Christ Jesus)
~(Martyred Accept Bodily Death For their Belief)

FINISHED works (completed) —->DONE…BY manKIND

OT men who bodily died naturally in Belief
NT men who bodily die naturally in Belief
God Saved and Shall Save.

NT —> men who Died naturally, Die Naturally, HAVING Their own FINISHED WORKS completed…
Christ Jesus Saved and Shall Save.

Saved, Restored, Quickened, BY The:
Offering of God (His WILL)
Word Of God (Jesus)
Power Of God (Christ)
Act Of God (Baptism)
Baptizer (Lamb Of God)

[BIF and WHEN[/B]a man Freely Chooses Gods Offerings….

Determines..
THEN a man has FINISHED the mans will.

WHEN and HOW a man has FINISHED the mans will.

Determines…
WHEN that man Shall be Redeemed.

Before,
During,
After

Tribulations and Wrath sent down from Heaven upon the whole world.

Determines…
WHO shall Redeem that man.

Christ the Lord Jesus… Son.
God …Father

Yes…The Father and Son (so called) IS Revealed they Are One and The Same…
Lord God Almighty, without Beginning or Ending…
Supernaturally Omnipresent, Filling particular Roles, at particularTimes, with specific Names, Titles, Descriptions… for the teaching of manKind who themselves are naturally limited to their presence one place at a time.

Glory to God,
Taken

Good Day, Brother. How are you all? GOD is a Spirit. Thank you.

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Taken]

Good Day, Brother. How are you all? GOD is a Spirit. Thank you.

Love, Walter And Debbie

Doing Well.
Greatly Blessed “IN” Christ, Christ “IN” me.

Amen.
God IS SPIRIT.
Amen.

Well being To you both also.

Glory to God,
Taken