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CadyandZoe

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1. It's a good point, but a) the book is written for the reader, and the reader is given the "legend" for understanding these things, and b) Jesus often says things in John's Gospel that leave the hearers scratching their heads (eg, John 16:18).
2. If you don't want to accept it it's fine with me. I put the information out so that any reasonable person can make of it what they will.
I would use caution with this approach. Granted, the gospels tend to have unifying themes that run through them. But our job as readers is to sort through them and identify which theme is being expressed at any given time. Water, for instance, may be employed metaphorically in various different passages to express entirely different ideas. As a Bible student, I must discipline myself against superimposing an idea onto a text that the author didn't intend.

And, I'm still learning, which is why I appreciate our discussions. Thanks.
 
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CadyandZoe

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This is ludicrous.

Paul explicitly states his point in the text:
2 Thess 2:15

"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, WHETHER BY an ORAL STATEMENT OR BY a LETTER from us."

Either Written Tradition (Scripture) or ORAL Tradition (Oral teaching).
Paul is stating emphatically that the ORAL teachings (Traditions) that they are teaching are every bit as binding as what is WRITTEN by them (Scripture). There s NO other way to parse this text.

YOU are guilty of the very thing you accuse ME of doing - reading "into" the text what the author never intended.
Your error isn't the result of an inept parsing of the text. Your error is indicative of someone attempting to make a text say one thing, when the text actually says something else. You, and other Catholic apologist begin with the answer you want to hear, and twist the scripture to support your preconceived conclusion. Your religion has a so-called "oral tradition" it invented. The claim is made that particular ideas were not located in the written word, but were passed down verbally. But some how, after all these years, the oral tradition is still known, even when no written record of it exists. Or, if a written record exists, it is NO LONGER ORAL tradition is it?

This is the oldest con in the world. Suppose a man claimed to have black boxes that answer every question truthfully. He sells them at a hefty price. Suppose another man wanted to test it before buying. He asks it, "what is the day of my birth?" Once the answer is printed out on paper, it is totally incomprehensible. The first man tells him, "I am the only person who can interpret the message."

This is Catholic Oral Tradition in a nutshell. Not only do Catholics claim to have apostolic messages from the third century, they reserve the interpretation of those messages to themselves. As I said, the oldest con in the world. A claim that can't be tested is a dubious claim.

Catholic apologists are con men, attempting to fool the gullible, who don't understand the dangers of proof-texting. Those who take a verse out of context can make it say whatever they want to hear, or whatever they want to argue. Does Paul talk about traditions that he communicated orally? Yes he does. Do we have an infallible source for some of these traditions? Yes, the written scriptures.

Should we accept the word of other men who claim to know about other traditions? No. Our only source of information regarding divine revelation is the inerrant, infallible, inspired scriptures. If Paul verbally gave other traditions, which cannot be found in the Bible, they are lost to history.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Not everything the Apostles taught got written down.
Okay. Granted. But what wasn't written down is lost to history.

What was believed and practiced by all was well established before the canon of Scripture.
Really? What is the New Testament if it isn't a commentary on "what was believed and practiced by all"? What was Paul's letter to the Galatians if not a commentary on the error of self-righteousness? What was Paul's letter to the Thessalonians if not a commentary on perverted sexual practices? What was Paul's letter if not a commentary on idolatry, licentiousness, or misguided pietists?

Have you never read the New Testament? What led you to believe the idea that there ever existed a single voice of agreement among believers? Please, your claims are both naïve and well beyond credulity. The very existence of the New Testament itself contradicts your claim that the church shared a unified belief and practice. Not only did the apostles understand the need for written rebuttal of church doctrines, they were keenly aware of the need to constantly remind readers of exhortations they already gave.
 

BreadOfLife

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Your error isn't the result of an inept parsing of the text. Your error is indicative of someone attempting to make a text say one thing, when the text actually says something else. You, and other Catholic apologist begin with the answer you want to hear, and twist the scripture to support your preconceived conclusion. Your religion has a so-called "oral tradition" it invented. The claim is made that particular ideas were not located in the written word, but were passed down verbally. But some how, after all these years, the oral tradition is still known, even when no written record of it exists. Or, if a written record exists, it is NO LONGER ORAL tradition is it?

This is the oldest con in the world. Suppose a man claimed to have black boxes that answer every question truthfully. He sells them at a hefty price. Suppose another man wanted to test it before buying. He asks it, "what is the day of my birth?" Once the answer is printed out on paper, it is totally incomprehensible. The first man tells him, "I am the only person who can interpret the message."

This is Catholic Oral Tradition in a nutshell. Not only do Catholics claim to have apostolic messages from the third century, they reserve the interpretation of those messages to themselves. As I said, the oldest con in the world. A claim that can't be tested is a dubious claim.

Catholic apologists are con men, attempting to fool the gullible, who don't understand the dangers of proof-texting. Those who take a verse out of context can make it say whatever they want to hear, or whatever they want to argue. Does Paul talk about traditions that he communicated orally? Yes he does. Do we have an infallible source for some of these traditions? Yes, the written scriptures.

Should we accept the word of other men who claim to know about other traditions? No. Our only source of information regarding divine revelation is the inerrant, infallible, inspired scriptures. If Paul verbally gave other traditions, which cannot be found in the Bible, they are lost to history.
It's interesting to note that in the depths of your ignorance, you actually condemn Oral Tradition as a "Catholic" invention. Oral Tradition is as old as Judaism itself. The Jewish people had the WRITTEN and the ORAL teachings - and these were NOT the teachings condemned by Jesus in Mark 7:8-12. Those teachings were Corban, in context.

Jesus and the NT writers not only relied on Oral Tradition - they referred to it in the NT as BINDING:
Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION.
It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses.
It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres.

Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two.
This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with Satan over Moses' body.
This is not found in the Old Testament.


YOUR claim that the "ONLY" source of information regarding divine revelation is Scripture - is a 16th century MAN-MADE invention.
NOWHERE, in the 1500 years prior to this was this ever taught.

Oh, by the way - the Canon of Scripture is a "Catholic" Tradition. YOU adhere to the SAME NT Canon that was declared by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. The Bible does NOT contain a list of Books that belong in it. This was declared by Christ's Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Regardless
of the fact that you reject His words - Jesus promised His Church . . .
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
 

GracePeace

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I wasn't talking to you, so you don't have to worry about it, do you.

However, I fully expect you to go running to the Mods, as is your usual style . . .
This is my thread.
I want on topic discussion.
You should care that you're not on topic.
That is disorder.
Yeah I will go to the mods to control you since you choose not to control yourself--I'd do the same if some drunk was attacking people (fall the police to" moderate" him).
 

GracePeace

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I would use caution with this approach. Granted, the gospels tend to have unifying themes that run through them. But our job as readers is to sort through them and identify which theme is being expressed at any given time. Water, for instance, may be employed metaphorically in various different passages to express entirely different ideas. As a Bible student, I must discipline myself against superimposing an idea onto a text that the author didn't intend.

And, I'm still learning, which is why I appreciate our discussions. Thanks.
I understand where you'd want to be cautious but it really seems the author wants me to come to this conclusion. I'm using the material he's providing me.
He is telling me what a person needs to enter the Kingdom. It's not talking about amniotic fluid--that is already assumed for every living person, so He wouldn't be "advising" them of that "need".
 
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Heart2Soul

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This is my thread.
I want on topic discussion.
You should care that you're not on topic.
That is disorder.
Yeah I will go to the mods to control you since you choose not to control yourself--I'd do the same if some drunk was attacking people (fall the police to" moderate" him).
I think this thread has run it's course don't you?
 

GracePeace

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I think this thread has run it's course don't you?
When I report someone for being off topic, that is not a request that the thread be shut down. It seems you want to shut it down because you don't want to be bothered with moderation duties. If that is the case I just can't report people anymore. But that's not appropriate in this setting people need moderation.
 

Heart2Soul

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It's interesting to note that in the depths of your ignorance, you actually condemn Oral Tradition as a "Catholic" invention. Oral Tradition is as old as Judaism itself. The Jewish people had the WRITTEN and the ORAL teachings - and these were NOT the teachings condemned by Jesus in Mark 7:8-12. Those teachings were Corban, in context.

Jesus and the NT writers not only relied on Oral Tradition - they referred to it in the NT as BINDING:
Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION.
It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses.
It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres.

Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two.
This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with Satan over Moses' body.
This is not found in the Old Testament.


YOUR claim that the "ONLY" source of information regarding divine revelation is Scripture - is a 16th century MAN-MADE invention.
NOWHERE, in the 1500 years prior to this was this ever taught.

Oh, by the way - the Canon of Scripture is a "Catholic" Tradition. YOU adhere to the SAME NT Canon that was declared by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. The Bible does NOT contain a list of Books that belong in it. This was declared by Christ's Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Regardless
of the fact that you reject His words - Jesus promised His Church . . .
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Stay on topic.[/QUOTE]
 
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Heart2Soul

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When I report someone for being off topic, that is not a request that the thread be shut down. It seems you want to shut it down because you don't want to be bothered with moderation duties. If that is the case I just can't report people anymore. But that's not appropriate in this setting people need moderation.
What it may seem like to you is not why. It is the spirit of strife that is manifesting and causing the peace of God to be absent.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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1. Irrelevant, the point was as to the applicability of the baptism/frequency with which the baptism was to be given--just as John came to baptize all in water, so Jesus comes to baptize all in fire.
2. "Spirit and fire"--the "fire" refers to the Spirit, and they had fire over their heads on Pentecost, so I reject your unbelief that fire refers to this one baptism, and I leave it up to the readers to decide for themselves.

Well, 1) they're members of the Trinity (the Word and the Spirit) LOL so obviously they're bound together 2) "My Words are Spirit and life", so you receive the Spirit as you receive His Words, just as Paul argues "If someone preaches another Gospel... if you receive some other kind of spirit" 2 Co 11:4 : the Word and Spirit proceeding from the Word, ipso facto, are bound together. Also Galatians 5 "this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls you"--by following a "persuasion" from a spirit that did not emanate from God, they "departed from God" Galatians 1:6 and were "... fallen from [the Spirit of] Grace" Galatians 5:4.

Well, OK, I reject your argument since you haven't produced any proofs and like 95% of the rest of your arguments fall through and prove to be baseless and hiding behind a veil of supposed "knowledge" which proves to be nothing but ignorance.

Thanks.
Well then we are done.

You are arrogant and brassy and very judgmental!

YOu refuse to defend you rpositions. You just restate thewm and leave it.

You bear false witness against your brethren and refuse to supply the evidence for your false accusations.

YOu may have the last word but I am done with you.

If I wrote the sky is blue, based on your "wat" you would want me to vewrify it by multiple on line sources. YOu appear to just wish to challenge anything that goes against your preconceived notions.

You cannot even defend fire as being of the Holy Spirit- nor attempt to rebut the sound hermeneutic I gave you.

You ignore rules of grammar.

And I did not see you say verse 6 was part of Johanine comma. Maybe it got lost in all the challenges you want to raise about simple grammar.

Have your last word, I shan't respond to it.

BTW your avatar suits you. It looks like a cop uniform and you appear to wish to be the spiritual police instead of abroither who can have an honest disagreement.

I cannot wish you well in your path, for even if you are right iin all your counter arguments, your spirit is one of hatre and darkness and accusations.
 

Ronald Nolette

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@Ronald Nolette Also, Paul describes the gift of the Spirit as "fire" :

2 Timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands...

When the gift of the Spirit dies down it is like "embers", and we should "fan" the "embers" until they become a roaring fire again.

Why is Paul using this "fire" metaphor? Doesn't he know @Ronald Nolette disbelieves this? What is Paul thinking?


wow are you grasping at straws. YOu cannot even recognize an idiom in your hyper allegorical attempt to defend the indefensible.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Anyone who wants can go look at our interactions and see how many falsehoods you've emptily asserted that have been challenged and debunked--and they can see that you don't care to acknowledge basic Scriptural reality.

YOu sir are a prevaricator! YOu have debunked nothing. Just presented your point of view as fact and expected me to bow down to your own sense of self superiority.

You find a word i SCripture and say see- that proves my point.

spirit of burning is not the Holy Spirit
Fanning the flames of the gift is not the Holy Spirit.

If you do not know that- you should go back to 3rd grade and relearn basic rules of grammar and vocabulary.
 

BreadOfLife

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This is my thread.
I want on topic discussion.
You should care that you're not on topic.
That is disorder.
Yeah I will go to the mods to control you since you choose not to control yourself--I'd do the same if some drunk was attacking people (fall the police to" moderate" him).
And this is precisely the reason I don't debate with people who are too cowardly to fight their own battles.

Incidentally - it was your fellow ignorant anti-Catholic, @CadyandZoe who took this conversation off-topic.
Why not complain to him/her??
Bread of Life is a Jesuit literally being paid to come here and vomit up Catholic teachings--and it's the only discussion they ever have! And when they're proven wrong (eg, their own apologists concede points they refuse to admit) they don't admit it they just stop talking. LOL
Ummmmm, I'd have to be a Priest to be a Jesuit, Einstein.
The Society of Jesus (Jesuits) are a Priestly order.

Your ignorance of ALL things Catholic is once again noted . . .