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Ronald Nolette

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Was that not obvious? And are not your arguments specious? Who said anything about two new births?

I have provided all the Scriptures pertaining to the spiritual New Birth. Kindly read my post again.

You implied it by saying the water birth is the word of God! Jesus said we must have two births- one of water and one of the spirit!
One birth in the flesh and one birth in the spirit. so if you demand the water birth is birth ion the Word of god the construct of Jesus statement is two born agains by your logic.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

YOu cannot reinterpret this! Jesus said a man must have 2 births to see the kingdom of God! and Jews understood water birth as natural birth.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus is laying out the requirement for entering the Kingdom, so He's only discussing the new birth with "water and Spirit".

No He is not!

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus had already been baptized many times in keeping with Jewish law and custom.
Nicodemus had been "born again" all four of th epossible 6 ways He could be (the other two being a gentile convert and being anointed king).

There is much here we as gentiles and 2 millenia removed from the cultural context Jesus spoke in miss.

Natural birth was called being born of water. This was a common way of saying it in Israel.

Being born again in the spirit was the new concept Jesus was introducing to Nicodemus! The new testament is ripe with passages that say when we trust christ' death and resurrection we are "born again", "a new creature", a new man", "the old man dead" etc.etc.etc.

Verse 6 defines verse 5 Jesus is saying one must be born naturally and spiritually to see the kingdom of God.

Water Baptism does not save.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Which is why 'water' is referring to fleshly repentance, and 'spirit' is referring to faith in God. Repentance alone births our favorite whipping boy, the 'legalist'. He can not and will not inherit the kingdom. But faith in God births a spiritual man, the one who inherits the kingdom of his Father, even though he is born second, defying all natural expectation that the son born first is the one who inherits the blessing.

No it is just referring to natural birth. that is what the Jews understood it as and this was a fairly common phrase in ancient times.
 

Ronald Nolette

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@CadyandZoe @Ferris Bueller @Enoch111 @Ronald Nolette

Nicodemus misunderstands what "born again" means ("Born again? Be born out of my mother's womb again?"), so, in His clarification, Jesus first addresses Nicodemus's error (the negative--"No, not being born of any womb at all--much less returning to your mother's womb to come back out again (that would still be flesh).").

There were six ways one could be "born again" in Israel.
1. A Gentile converting to Judaism
2. A Jew when circumcised
3. Getting married
4. Becoming a rabbi
5. Becoming a rebbe (teacher of Israel or rabbi of rabbis)
6. being anointed king.

Nicodemus was "born again" all the ways He qualified four (2-5) so He knew of no other way of being born again! Jesus knew that and used this tro instruct Him in the new truths He came to reveal.
 

GracePeace

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Nicodemus had already been baptized many times in keeping with Jewish law and custom.
Nicodemus had been "born again" all four of th epossible 6 ways He could be (the other two being a gentile convert and being anointed king).
You have no bases for referring to OT water baptisms as "born again" experiences.

There is much here we as gentiles and 2 millenia removed from the cultural context Jesus spoke in miss.

Natural birth was called being born of water. This was a common way of saying it in Israel.
Says who?

Being born again in the spirit was the new concept Jesus was introducing to Nicodemus! The new testament is ripe with passages that say when we trust christ' death and resurrection we are "born again", "a new creature", a new man", "the old man dead" etc.etc.etc.

Verse 6 defines verse 5 Jesus is saying one must be born naturally and spiritually to see the kingdom of God.

Water Baptism does not save.
By referring to "one" you've already assumed "natural birth" so there would be no mention of any "need" to be "naturally born" to an already "naturally born" person.
 

GracePeace

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There were six ways one could be "born again" in Israel.
1. A Gentile converting to Judaism
2. A Jew when circumcised
3. Getting married
4. Becoming a rabbi
5. Becoming a rebbe (teacher of Israel or rabbi of rabbis)
6. being anointed king.

Nicodemus was "born again" all the ways He qualified four (2-5) so He knew of no other way of being born again! Jesus knew that and used this tro instruct Him in the new truths He came to reveal.
A Jew is "born again" when he is circumcised!? A Jewish boy is circumcised the 8th day after he was just born! He needs another birth already!? Where are you getting all of this nonsense?
 

GracePeace

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There were six ways one could be "born again" in Israel.
1. A Gentile converting to Judaism
2. A Jew when circumcised
3. Getting married
4. Becoming a rabbi
5. Becoming a rebbe (teacher of Israel or rabbi of rabbis)
6. being anointed king.

Nicodemus was "born again" all the ways He qualified four (2-5) so He knew of no other way of being born again! Jesus knew that and used this tro instruct Him in the new truths He came to reveal.
"Rebbe" is Yiddish for "rabbi", or a leader of a Hasidic sect (Hasidism being relatively recent development)--the word wouldn't have had influence on customs in ancient Israel because it didn't exist.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You have no bases for referring to OT water baptisms as "born again" experiences.

I never said any OT baptisms were born again experiences. I don't believe or teach that. That is a jump to a wrong conclusion.

"Rebbe" is Yiddish for "rabbi", or a leader of a Hasidic sect (Hasidism being relatively recent development)--the word wouldn't have had influence on customs in ancient Israel because it didn't exist.

Well I used the word as used today, but in ancient Israel it was called "teacher of Israel, or rabbi of rabbis. In Jesus day there were three , Hillel, Nicodemus, Gamaliel.


A Jew is "born again" when he is circumcised!? A Jewish boy is circumcised the 8th day after he was just born! He needs another birth already!? Where are you getting all of this nonsense?

Jewish sources. You are thinking like the gentile you are and trying to force ancient Jewish culture into your gentile 21st century understanding.

but if you wish you can write to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum @ ariel.org and ask him.

or you can purchase His first of four volumes of the life of teh Messiah from a Hebrew perspective. It is the volume that spends most of the book establishing Jewish thinking and history for Jesus day! It is heavily refeerenced and footnoted.

I also went to Israel and had a chance to speak to rabbis and Christian rabbis.

Though I am not sure, I also think that Dr. Alfred Eddersheim in his epic work "life and times of Jesus the Messiah" references this as well.

Feel free to search these out or to attempt to rebut what these Jewish experts all attest to.

Says who?

Jewish custom! We even have a euphemism (though not as widely used as before) that when a woman is about to give birth, many times her amniotic sac breaks and she will exclaim "my water broke". You can search out the history of this idiom and learn that way as well.

https://www.gracegospelpress.org/bi...born-of-water-and-the-spirit-mean-in-john-35/

Being one who holds to the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture, I keep words in their natural, normal context and understanding and historical context unless it makes no sense to take it literally. Jesus being teh author grammar and language and speech would not give a command in both a literal and metaphorical way in one sentence, especially in light of the preceding verse that shows Jesus defines 2 separate births that coincide perfectly with being "born of water" and "being born of the Spirit"
 

Ronald Nolette

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Whatever dude, the forum is about as whacked out as I’ve ever seen one. You guys are morons.


WOW! Not judgmental much are you????????? And how do you know what a moron is? Have you pracxticed being morinic so know form experience.

If you don't like the discussion, then don't participate, but to insult and demean brother Christians is very very juvenile.
 

Enoch111

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You implied it by saying the water birth is the word of God! Jesus said we must have two births- one of water and one of the spirit!
Kindly read my post again very carefully. I said that water is a metaphor for the Word of God in Scripture, and in this context it is the Gospel, as the quotation from 1 Peter clearly shows.

So the hearing of the Gospel generates saving faith (Rom 10:17) and those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are regenerated (or born of the Spirit) supernaturally.
That is the one New Birth which is essential to both enter and see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3-8; 1:12,13). Those who are born again are (1) born of the Spirit, (2) born from above, (3) born of God, and (4) regenerated. And saving faith is essential.

Also, I have give the Scripture passages which call the Word of God "water" metaphorically, since it is God who sprinkles this water on the soul of the sinner (and the saint). While the blood of Christ cleanses us from all our sins, the water of the Word convicts and convinces the unsaved (Hebrews 4:12,13), and also further sanctifies the saint:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25-27).
 
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GracePeace

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I never said any OT baptisms were born again experiences. I don't believe or teach that. That is a jump to a wrong conclusion.
You said "there were 6 ways a person could be born again".
There were six ways one could be "born again" in Israel....
Nicodemus was "born again" all the ways He qualified four (2-5) so He knew of no other way of being born again! ...
Maybe you misspoke.

Well I used the word as used today, but in ancient Israel it was called "teacher of Israel, or rabbi of rabbis. In Jesus day there were three , Hillel, Nicodemus, Gamaliel.
1. You said there "were 6 says a born could be born again in Israel"--meaning you were referring to life back then, which means there would not have been any "rebbe".
2. Hillel had long been dead by "Jesus's day".
3. There were no "rabbis" as they are understood today back then--it was an honorific title then, and only later became what it is today (they had a Temple-centered religion then, but since the Temple was destroyed, they've had to develop a "teacher"-centered religion).

Jewish sources. You are thinking like the gentile you are and trying to force ancient Jewish culture into your gentile 21st century understanding.
Right, so name the "Jewish sources".

but if you wish you can write to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum @ ariel.org and ask him.
No, you provide the substantiations for your claims, you don't put me to work to prove your points.

or you can purchase His first of four volumes of the life of teh Messiah from a Hebrew perspective. It is the volume that spends most of the book establishing Jewish thinking and history for Jesus day! It is heavily refeerenced and footnoted.
All right, share the citations.

I also went to Israel and had a chance to speak to rabbis and Christian rabbis.
Most people, including "ministers", are ignorant so this means nothing.

Though I am not sure, I also think that Dr. Alfred Eddersheim in his epic work "life and times of Jesus the Messiah" references this as well.
You should reference it in your reply.

Feel free to search these out or to attempt to rebut what these Jewish experts all attest to.
No, you should search your proofs out before you make your claims.

Jewish custom! We even have a euphemism (though not as widely used as before) that when a woman is about to give birth, many times her amniotic sac breaks and she will exclaim "my water broke". You can search out the history of this idiom and learn that way as well.
Where's the proof?

Provide the information, not a link.

Being one who holds to the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture, I keep words in their natural, normal context and understanding and historical context unless it makes no sense to take it literally. Jesus being teh author grammar and language and speech would not give a command in both a literal and metaphorical way in one sentence, especially in light of the preceding verse that shows Jesus defines 2 separate births that coincide perfectly with being "born of water" and "being born of the Spirit"
That would be a good point, but He wouldn't tell someone who is already naturally born they need to be born naturally (they're already born naturally)--also, under your own interpretation, wouldn't He also be doing the same thing (giving a command in both a literal and metaphorical way in one sentence)?
 
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GracePeace

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You said "there were 6 ways a person could be born again".
There were six ways one could be "born again" in Israel.
When you claimed the Gentile converting to Judaism constituted a "born again" experience, I thought you meant "because he had to be baptized". If you didn't mean to say that I take it back.
 

Enoch111

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...but He wouldn't tell someone who is already naturally born they need to be born naturally (they're already born naturally)
Exactly. What Jesus was saying is that the natural birth is IRRELEVANT in spiritual matters. Since all are born with the sin nature, all must be born again in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God. And ordinary H20 cannot do anything other than clean physical dirt and grime. The Holy Spirit is the one involved with this washing of regeneration and renewal in the New Birth.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy [and grace go together] he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us [poured on us] abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

It is significant to note that the triune Godhead is altogether involved in the New Birth:
GOD OUR SAVIOR = GOD THE FATHER
THE HOLY GHOST = GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT
JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR = GOD THE SON

So those who deny the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity cannot really enter into the Kingdom of God.
 
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GracePeace

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Exactly. What Jesus was saying is that the natural birth is IRRELEVANT in spiritual matters. Since all are born with the sin nature, all must be born again in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God. And ordinary H20 cannot do anything other than clean physical dirt and grime. The Holy Spirit is the one involved with this washing of regeneration and renewal in the New Birth.
Part of the process of understanding what He's saying has to do with figuring out what He isn't saying I think--then it sorta leads you to what He must have been saying. I mean, I leave room for correction, but for now I don't see a better way.
 

Illuminator

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Kindly look at the exact words of Christ -- "WATER AND SPIRIT". So the question should be what is this "water" which only God can sprinkle (according to Ezekiel) in order to bring about the New Birth? It cannot be ordinary H2O since Jesus was speaking about spiritual realities.
No, He was speaking about real, wet, physical WATER AND SPIRIT. It's not a dichotomy (either/or), it's BOTH/AND. Please name any mainline Protestant denomination that teaches baptismal water is metaphorical, I haven't found any yet. While your at it, please name any major reformer that taught this recent innovation.
 

Enoch111

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While your at it, please name any major reformer that taught this recent innovation.
Calvin definitely did not agree that "water" means H20.

CALVIN'S COMMENTARY ON JOHN 3:5:
WATER = SPIRITUAL CLEANSING

"...We must always keep in remembrance the design of Christ, which we have already explained; namely, that he intended to exhort Nicodemus to newness of life, because he was not capable of receiving the Gospel, until he began to be a new man. It is, therefore, a simple statement, that we must be born again, in order that we may be the children of God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Author of this second birth. For while Nicodemus was dreaming of the regeneration (palingenesia) or transmigration taught by Pythagoras, who imagined that souls, after the death of their bodies, passed into other bodies, [58] Christ, in order to cure him of this error, added, by way of explanation, that it is not in a natural way that men are born a second time, and that it is not necessary for them to be clothed with a new body, but that they are born when they are renewed in mind and heart by the grace of the Spirit.

Accordingly, he employed the words Spirit and water to mean the same thing, and this ought not to be regarded as a harsh or forced interpretation; for it is a frequent and common way of speaking in Scripture, when the Spirit is mentioned, to add the word Water or Fire, expressing his power. We sometimes meet with the statement, that it is Christ who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost and with fire, (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16,) where fire means nothing different from the Spirit, but only shows what is his efficacy in us. As to the word water being placed first, it is of little consequence; or rather, this mode of speaking flows more naturally than the other, because the metaphor is followed by a plain and direct statement, as if Christ had said that no man is a son of God until he has been renewed by water, and that this water is the Spirit who cleanseth us anew and who, by spreading his energy over us, imparts to us the rigor of the heavenly life, though by nature we are utterly dry. And most properly does Christ, in order to reprove Nicodemus for his ignorance, employ a form of expression which is common in Scripture; for Nicodemus ought at length to have acknowledged, that what Christ had said was taken from the ordinary doctrine of the Prophets.

By water, therefore, is meant nothing more than the inward purification and invigoration which is produced by the Holy Spirit. Besides, it is not unusual to employ the word and instead of that is, when the latter clause is intended to explain the former. And the view which I have taken is supported by what follows; for when Christ immediately proceeds to assign the reason why we must be born again, without mentioning the water, he shows that the newness of life which he requires is produced by the Spirit alone; whence it follows, that water must not be separated from the Spirit..."


Calvin equated water with the Holy Spirit, but it is generally oil that is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit, and water is a metaphor for the Word of God. Regardless, he rejected the notion that the water of baptism is involved in spiritual cleaning. However Christian baptism is indeed a necessity
after the New Birth.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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No it is just referring to natural birth. that is what the Jews understood it as and this was a fairly common phrase in ancient times.
I think natural birth is a somewhat good explanation for the water (although, I'm skeptical that being born of water is or ever was a common idiom for natural childbirth. It's not a good one. It doesn't describe the experience well). Natural childbirth does explain the 'flesh gives birth to flesh' part. Especially in the context of the Jews who thought simply being born a Jew automatically put them into the kingdom of God, no matter what. And so Jesus is correcting them and explaining that they must also become spiritual Jews and be born of the Spirit, not just the flesh. Much like how Paul explained that circumcised Jews must also be spiritually circumcised.

BUT.......(and that's a big but)

Paul talks about the son who is "born according to the flesh" (Galatians 4:29), and the son born "by the free woman through the promise" (Galatians 4:29) which we know to be talking about the spiritual birth. And so we have other Biblical information to help us understand fleshly birth vs. spiritual birth. Like Jesus, Paul also explains that those of the natural fleshly birth have no part of the inheritance, only those of the spiritual birth. The parallels between the two teachings are too hard to ignore. The task from here is to see how 'water' in Jesus' teaching relates to the 'old covenant' in Paul's teaching, because both birth flesh that won't inherit the kingdom. John's water baptism for repentance connects the two very well.
 
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Tetha

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I'm not going to quarrel with you.
You don't know what you're saying, at all, period, end of story.
Hopefully that will be as clear to the readers as it has been to me from the first comment you made here.

Now we can get back to the point rather than spend an eternity correcting someone who hates correction.
New wineskins for old ... when the old husband is dead the woman is free to remarry. Iow, Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Christians all are the widow of satan and just as all the widows were at that time incapable of meeting their needs themselves, we also are incapable of meeting our own spiritual needs.

The food is the good news but it's as the Holy Spirit that ministers to our needs, regardless of the background that we come from.

Jesus still stands as the overseer, the head of all who die to satan and fix our gaze on the heavenlies.


Why Christians are represented by the widows:

Romans 7:3 ...but if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man. (4) So then, my brothers and sisters, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God.​


...we, the believers, after being saved, have two statuses; the old and the new (we still possess the lessons learnt from both trees). As the old man we were the husband having satan as our helpmeet, now as the betrothed we are legally bound in submissive rule to Jesus.


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him.​


No doubt, the you that have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ in Romans 7:4 is the old man who has been crucified with Him in 6:6.


Paul puts together a funeral and a wedding. On the one hand, we were buried; on the other hand, we were married.


We have been made dead that we might marry another. We were made dead according to our old status that we might marry another according to our new status.


According to our new status, we marry Him who has been raised from among the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. Brothers and sisters, we are the betrothed who is dead to the old marraige of satan's worldly self-rule.


Today we are being called on to build our future on the sure foundation of love, trust and belief in Him who is our 1st Love that begat the new creation, the new life of God, the blossomed fruit of our new status as belonging forever to the House of God.
 

Ferris Bueller

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b. What does it mean to be born of water? We know from Joh 3:10 that whatever being born of water is, it should have been familiar to Nicodemus from the Old Testament.
I think the rebirth is the part that Jesus expected Nicodemus to know from the OT scriptures. Not the water part.