John 6 and the bread from heaven

[Eternally Grateful]

I want to thank you EG for starting this thread so that we can have a more in-depth discussion on this matter. Let's put John 6 in CONTEXT with what ALL of what John 6 has to say about this matter.

John 6 starts out with the feeding of BREAD to 5,000 followers of Him. He took 5 loaves and MIRACUASLY fed all of them until they were full, with some fragments left over. The fragments were 'gathered up so that nothing was lost'. The Church still does that today! The next day Jesus said to those that were seeking him out because of this MIRACLE her performed (miraculous multiplication of bread), “26 Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Later in John 6 He explains vs 27 by telling them that He is the "food which endures to everlasting life". Further equating himself to bread saying that we must eat him. Using hermeneutics, we KNOW that when he used the word 'eat' it literally meant to chew. They KNEW that he meant they had to literally eat Him. That is why some walked away. That is why today some Protestants STILL walk away. They do not understand what He meant by literally eating Him. Jesus even told them it is a hard saying. Why was it a hard saying if all he meant that we must, according to you EG, eat his word (read Scripture daily)? Why would they walk away if they thought that eating him meant reading daily Scripture. That makes ZERO sense and is not logical! It all comes back to hermeneutics.

In summary thus far Jesus miraculously changed 5 loaves of bread into enough bread to feed 5,000 people with some left over. He then equated himself to that miraculous bread saying that we must eat Him. Those that thought he was talking of cannibalism walked away. The ones that stuck around found out HOW to eat Him.

What did he do to teach us HOW to eat Him? At The Last Supper Jesus, once again, equated himself to bread saying eat (this bread) in remembrance of me, this IS my body. He didn't say like some of you Protestants say that it is a SYMBOL of his body. He said it IS his body. Me and my ilk believe Him. You and your ilk don't. I can't explain to you HOW he does it, but it is truly a miracle.

Now to put more of Scripture into context on this matter we need to see what the NT Christians practiced AFTER Jesus died and gave them these instructions. They broke bread DAILY. Why daily? Well, Jesus taught them to pray for their daily bread in The Lord's Prayer. He also told them to do it in memory of Him, so DAILY they did what he told them to do. Fast forward about 30 years later and Paul asked a rhetorical question to the Christians in Corinth, The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? Paul later says, whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. How can one eat the word of the Lord in an unworthy manner? It's not logical and it does not fit into the CONTEXT of that entire chapter. Paul is CLEARLY talking about EATING REAL BREAD, not reading Scripture + believing= eating him!

So, Jesus TOLD us that we must eat him and that we will have eternal life if we do. He then SHOWED us how to eat Him. And then Paul told the 1st century Christians that when they eat the bread in remembrance of Him the bread IS (miraculously) his body just like Jesus said it was.

Thank you for your response.

I agree we need to move to the begining. He did feed 5000. And the next day they came looking again to be fed.

He said “do not work for food which perishes. But for food which endures to eternal life”

What did he mean here? I agree the food is christ more literally the cross. And I think more spiritually the “words that he spoke” which even peter agreed.you have the words of eternal life.

Also, I am confused why you skipped over most of the passage and just focused on only a few? I thought we would get in here so we did not do this.

do you have anything to say about the passages I wrote. And what each verse said?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

continued...

Now that I have used ALL of Scripture to put this matter in CONTEXT, let's look at OUR Christian history.

I said I did not want to talk about history. I wanted to talk about the passage

Can you please respond to what I said by breaking the verses down? As I did. And show me where you agree or disagree and why

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't realize this was a private conversation.
Is it all right if I just sit back and watch?

This is for everyone. Please discuss You may be able to bring something in neither mary or myself see

 

[Marymog]

For this I will try to color code each digit so it is easier to see

two plus two equals X

s 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Spirit (words of Christ) + It is assumed believe or see and believe here) = Gives life,

It is ASSUMED???

No, YOU are assuming that EG. When taking John 6 IN CONTEXT and comparing it to other passages of Scripture that equate Jesus being bread and we are we are told to ask for that daily bread...one can NOT assume that. It is not LOGICAL to assume that.

If you need a break due to illness.....We can pick this up tomorrow.

Prayers....Mary

 

[Marymog]

I said I did not want to talk about history. I wanted to talk about the passage

Can you please respond to what I said by breaking the verses down? As I did. And show me where you agree or disagree and why

I have broken down some of your verses. I will continue to do so.

 

[Ziggy]

1Co 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

What are we drinking? the New testament. Which is His Promise of Eternal life.

2Co 3:4
And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

What is it that Paul is ministering, blood? But it can't be physical blood, becase Paul says it is the letter that kills, meaning the LITERAL,
But it is the spirit which giveth life. You can't physically, literally drink something that is spiritual.
And the blood of Jesus is spiritual, it is his promise of a new covenant with many.

Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

What was the old covenant that was broken?
Exo 24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Jesus IS the book of the New Covenant. It is HIS blood that is sprinkled or poured out or ministered to the people that will hear and be obedient.
Jesus IS the Book of Life.
And if your name isn't in him, then your not one of his.


This is serious stuff:

Deu 31:16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

And this happened to Israel, God's chosen son, over and over and over, until a New Covenant was made.

This People, This God's Chosen Is His Body that was Broken for our sakes.
And the blood is his testament of the New Covenant.

Now you all keep eating and drinking, joining up with whoever and whatever, just like Israel did over and over and over.
But this time, there aint gonna be no New Covenant.
But it will be as the days of Noah.

Chew on it.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Sorry I did not say this last night. I went to bed early Still fighting this pneumonia

Guys I would like to keep this thread from anti-catholic rhetoric, Anti-protestant-Rhetoric, Anti anything rhetoric I just want to discuss John 6 and what Jesus spoke of what he called for us to do and what we would Recieve when we did it..

let the word speak for itself.

You tell me when I'm getting anti-anything and not speaking from the word of God and I will quit.
Hugs

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh that is all it is about in this thread

3^0 = 1

????

A member said the word was not given so we can privately interpret it. He said it was given and we have leaders who will tell us what it means

My point is that the Bible is not always that hard to understand

if a teacher tells his student that 2 + 2 = 4

then hear another teacher else say to their students

2 + 2 = 5

though study, everyone on earth has the ability to determine that 2 + 2 does not equal 5. So we can determine that the one saying it is in error. And trying to decieve his followers.

Granted a small child may not yet know that 2 + 2 = 4, and we have teachers to teach them these things.. But there will come a time in that childs life when he will mature enough and gain enough knowledge that he can discern that he has been lied to by his teachers, who teach him that 2 + 2 = 5.

Just like John spoke that he gave us the words so each person can determine if someone was trying to deceive them

my purpose is to use that formula to show John 6 is really not that hard to understand.

Most new believers tend to follow the ones who led them to christ, and do not know better, so in trust of those who are teaching them, take them as fact.

I am seen, and done this myself. That every child of Christ (Unless their christian growth was stunted by their refusal to study the word, or by their church, that everyone who has changed something they believed in, did so because when they grew. And studied the word. They found something did not add up. So they question what they have been taught. And in the end. They determine what they were taught was in error. So they changed their view

very few people changed their view because they just decided to leave a church, or the church did something to them that made them mad..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hey EG,

As long as that "first 2" includes ALL passages from Scripture instead of just passages from John 6, THEN and only then will 2+2=4.

Mary

we are talking about John 6

Jesus said things in John 6. I do not need to go to the rest of scripture to understand John 6.

The only reason I would need to do this is if something does not add up in John 6 and I need further clarification.

In my view there is nothing confusing about john 6 that forces me to go someplace else.

Although if I wanted to. I could Go to John 1, john 3, john 4, john 5 and other words of John, which all say basically the same thing about eternal life

Eternal life is the important aspect of John 6. Not the food.. The food is Jesus continuing to do what he did in the other chapters to show what is done to give us eternal life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The bread (manna) that the people of Israel ate (chewed on nawed on) was mere bread. It would sustain life for a day, and they had to keep making it over and over again.

They asked Him to give them this bread always. IN CONTEXT They were asking for real BREAD because they didn't understand what Jesus meant.

The bread He gives us (which he said is Him) is not mere bread and if we go to Him and believe in him, we shall never hunger and never thirst for anything else.

When you go to Him you believe what he says and you do what he says.

Lets talk about this.

The bread they wanted died. Meaning they had to eat it over and over.

He said the bread he would give would endure to eternal life.

does this not means that this bread you do NOT need to eat over and over, because it DOES NOT DIE.

why would he say do not seek this food which dies. But seek this food. Even though this food also died (meaning we need to continue to eat it over and over)

Jesus held up the bread at the Last Supper and said, "This is my body". Do you believe what he said EG?

At the Last Supper he said, "Do this in remembrance of me". Are you doing what He said EG?

So there is some CONTEXT to that passage.


Mary

Again, we are discussing John 6. Not other passages. Please stick to the context.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yup, we must first believe that He is the Son of God and believe in him before we can have everlasting life and never be cast out. That message is repeated multiple times throughout Scripture.

Mary

You added the word before we can have

Jesus said WE DO HAVE

see how just changing the wording can change the meaning?

How do we come to believe his is the son. (Jesus said it in this passage. And Peter prety much repeated it. Can you share what that was?

 

[Marymog]

For this I will try to color code each digit so it is easier to see

two plus two equals X

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Bread of life + Believes in him, he who eats this living bread (his flesh) = will live forever

The early Jews ate (chewed on) actual bread (manna) that God miraculously gave them to survive.
He is the NEW bread that comes down from heaven. He is replacing the bread that God gave them.
He is telling us we must eat this bread and when we do we will live forever.
His flesh is that bread.

He told us he would give us his flesh to eat. John 6
Those that couldn't accept that LITERAL hard saying walked away. John 6
Those that stuck around and continued to BELIEVE in him he showed them how He will give us his flesh to eat? 1 Corinthians 11:24
30 years later what did Paul say about this bread? 1 Corinthians 10:16 and 11:27-29
How often did the NT Christians eat this ACTUAL bread? Acts 2:46
When He taught us to pray did he tell us how often we should ask God for this bread? Matthew 6:11

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When I saw that I thought, YES, YES she finally got it...She finally realized that Jesus meant we must chew on Him just like real bread of which he equates himself too throughout John 6......but then you twisted Jesus LITERAL words into we "will live because of him (as long as Spirit (words of Christ) lives they will live! Amazing!!

The reason we KNOW that he was speaking literally is because SOME Jews walked away, and Jesus said it was a hard saying. They KNEW exactly what Jesus was saying. Those that stuck around until the Last Supper, they found out HOW they were to eat Him after he told them that they must eat him.

Now for a historical note that adds credence to what I have been teaching you: Did you know there are historical writings that accuse the 2nd century Christians of being cannibals? Why do you think that is EG?

1st
why are you skipping all the rest and just focusing on this one

2nd. Yes the people who believed he spoke literally left.

Did those who stayed think he meant literally? I don;t see it, It is not said, the only thing is said is peters words.. Did Peter say yes we need to eat and drink you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When I saw that I thought, YES, YES she finally got it...She finally realized that Jesus meant we must chew on Him just like real bread of which he equates himself too throughout John 6......

PS. I am not a she.

 

[Marymog]

You added the word before we can have

Jesus said WE DO HAVE

see how just changing the wording can change the meaning?

How do we come to believe his is the son. (Jesus said it in this passage. And Peter prety much repeated it. Can you share what that was?

Yes, we DO have eternal salvation IF we continue to believe in Him. If you stop believing you will be cast out and not have eternal salvation.

But BEFORE we can have eternal salvation, we must believe in Him.

 

[Marymog]

PS. I am not a she.

I apologize.......

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is ASSUMED???

No, YOU are assuming that EG. When taking John 6 IN CONTEXT and comparing it to other passages of Scripture that equate Jesus being bread and we are we are told to ask for that daily bread...one can NOT assume that. It is not LOGICAL to assume that.

If you need a break due to illness.....We can pick this up tomorrow.

Prayers....Mary

When I take John 6 in context. Every time Jesus spoke of this bread, or this flesh and blood. Or the thing we need to eat and drink, It related to BELIEVING IN HIM.

So yes. I can assume, we all can, because in context. It fits.

When I compair other passages of scripture it is the same.. it all related to believing in him

We will go to those other passages later if you desire. But I am focusing on John 6 here.. can you do this.

I am not that sick, i actually feel much better today, This is the 4th day on strong meds, and they are working..

 

[Ziggy]

Internet Troll: to antagonize (others) online by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content

Well, please inform me, if I somehow post something inflammatory or irrelevant or offensive that isn't already in the bible.
Or disruptive..
thankyou

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1Co 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

What are we drinking? the New testament. Which is His Promise of Eternal life.

2Co 3:4
And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

What is it that Paul is ministering, blood? But it can't be physical blood, becase Paul says it is the letter that kills, meaning the LITERAL,
But it is the spirit which giveth life. You can't physically, literally drink something that is spiritual.
And the blood of Jesus is spiritual, it is his promise of a new covenant with many.

Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

What was the old covenant that was broken?
Exo 24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Jesus IS the book of the New Covenant. It is HIS blood that is sprinkled or poured out or ministered to the people that will hear and be obedient.
Jesus IS the Book of Life.
And if your name isn't in him, then your not one of his.


This is serious stuff:

Deu 31:16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

And this happened to Israel, God's chosen son, over and over and over, until a New Covenant was made.

This People, This God's Chosen Is His Body that was Broken for our sakes.
And the blood is his testament of the New Covenant.

Now you all keep eating and drinking, joining up with whoever and whatever, just like Israel did over and over and over.
But this time, there aint gonna be no New Covenant.
But it will be as the days of Noah.

Chew on it.
Hugs

Can we please stick to what jesus said in John 6.

do you have any comments on the verses?

What did jesus mean when he said food which endures forever?

 

[Marymog]

1st
why are you skipping all the rest and just focusing on this one

2nd. Yes the people who believed he spoke literally left.

Did those who stayed think he meant literally? I don;t see it, It is not said, the only thing is said is peters words.. Did Peter say yes we need to eat and drink you?

1st: Ummmm.....I didn't.

2nd Great, we agree that they took Jesus words LITERALLY. That means Jesus was being VERY CLEAR on what he meant. He LITERALLY meant that we must EAT (chew) on him to have eternal salvation.

YES, those disciples that stayed thought he meant it literally. Because the words He used were literal AND Jesus said to them that it was a hard saying further asking them if they want to leave also. LOGICALLY, If he wasn't being literal, it wouldn't be a hard saying!!