John Calvin and Calvinism.

[GodsGrace]

With all due respect, this post is hogwash. Romans is not about corporate salvation or he would not have used SINGULAR terms rather than plural. It is clearly about individuals

Well, reformed...
I guess that makes it so.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did not call you a name, don't be so sensitive.

I'm VERY sensitive and am careful how I speak to persons.

I hope @PinSeeker will be replying since you are unable to.

 

[reformed1689]

I'm VERY sensitive and am careful how I speak to persons.

I hope @PinSeeker will be replying since you are unable to.

Unable to reply to what? And yes, it is evident you are overly sensitive if you thought I called you a name. Goodness.

 

[GodsGrace]

God decides whom He will save and whom He will give a change of heart. That is CLEAR in Scripture. He is the one that gives individuals to the Son. He is the one that gets the glory. Not us. We ALL deserve hell fire.

Ah.

So if it's GOD that decides whom He will send to heaven or hell because He gives the saved a change of heart,
and this is CLEAR from scripture (too bad no one noticed how clear it is till 1,500AD)....

then I was right in saying that it is THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

Thanks for confirming that I was correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unable to reply to what? And yes, it is evident you are overly sensitive if you thought I called you a name. Goodness.

I'd like to discuss Calvinism and not personality types.
Your choice...

 

[reformed1689]

None of the early fathers believed in unconditional election and they all believed in free will.

Good luck backing this up. And I have news for you, Calvinists ALSO believe in Free Will, just not the way humanists define free will.

 

[reformed1689]

and this is CLEAR from scripture (too bad no one noticed how clear it is till 1,500AD)....

False

then I was right in saying that it is THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

Where did I say that? The fault is SIN.

Thanks for confirming that I was correct.

Except I didn't.

 

[reformed1689]

I'd like to discuss Calvinism and not personality types.
Your choice...

I asked you a question, yet you decided to go back to personality types.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good luck backing this up. And I have news for you, Calvinists ALSO believe in Free Will, just not the way humanists define free will.

I could back it up because it's TRUE.
And I know calvinists believe in free will...
but not like every other human person believes in it.

See...it's impossible to speak to you.

 

[reformed1689]

I could back it up because it's TRUE.
And I know calvinists believe in free will...
but not like every other human person believes in it.

See...it's impossible to speak to you.

Question, how do you think Calvinists define free will and how do you define it?

 

[GodsGrace]

False

Where did I say that? The fault is SIN.
Except I didn't.

This is the post you're referring to:


reformed↑
No fault of their own? Are you crazy?

GodsGrace
See reformed...
your reply is why I find it so difficult to speak to Calvinists.

If you so desire, you could respond to my post no. 436 to the other poster.
No, I'm not crazy.
Are you?

Please explain, under the calvinist paradigm, how a person gets to go either to heaven or to hell.
Thanks.

And could we hold back on the name-calling?


You see what you did...
I had stated that God decides who is saved and who is not....
through no fault of their own.

And YOU asked me if I'm crazy...
and then you CONFIRMED what I said.

If you wish to discuss, fine.
If we're here to waste time...that is not fine.

 

[reformed1689]

You see what you did...
I had stated that God decides who is saved and who is not....
through no fault of their own.

And YOU asked me if I'm crazy...
and then you CONFIRMED what I said.

No that is not what you said. You stated God sends most of humanity to Hell through no fault of their own. At least be honest about what you said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Question, how do you think Calvinists define free will and how do you define it?

Of course not all calvinists agree with each other.
I go by the Institutes and what John Calvin taught.

So simply put:
Compatible free will....this has to be compatible with God predestinating EVERYTHING...down to every decision we make and every evil act that takes place. John Piper and John Macarthur agree to this.
How I would explain it is that God makes your heart desire what HE desires you to want.
Some calvinists say that you decide what you want most at the moment...that doesn't work so well since we all do that.


I believe in libertarian free will....
I make a choice when I could have chosen something else with no outside coersion.

That's it, simply put.

 

[GodsGrace]

No that is not what you said. You stated God sends most of humanity to Hell through no fault of their own. At least be honest about what you said.

Most of humanity is going to hell.
Jesus said so. Matthew 5

So are you saying it's not GOD that decides who is saved and who is reprobate?
This is what you said in your previous post...

P.S. If election is UNCONDITIONAL, it means that they get to go to hell through no condition that has been set by God.
IOW,,,God decides, so it's through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

 

[reformed1689]

Of course not all calvinists agree with each other.
I go by the Institutes and what John Calvin taught.

So simply put:
Compatible free will....this has to be compatible with God predestinating EVERYTHING...down to every decision we make and every evil act that takes place. John Piper and John Macarthur agree to this.
How I would explain it is that God makes your heart desire what HE desires you to want.
Some calvinists say that you decide what you want most at the moment...that doesn't work so well since we all do that.


I believe in libertarian free will....
I make a choice when I could have chosen something else with no outside coersion.

That's it, simply put.

And you are wrong and misinterpret Piper and MacArthur.

Most Calvinists believe in free will in the meaning that we have the freedom to choose what we desire. I'm sure you agree with this. However, nobody desires God. Nobody is good, or righteous. So without a change in desire, a supernatural change, a dragging by God (which is in Scripture) nobody chooses God. That is Calvinism. That is what the Bible states.

 

[reformed1689]

Most of humanity is going to hell.
Jesus said so. Matthew 5

So are you saying it's not GOD that decides who is saved and who is reprobate?
This is what you said in your previous post...

P.S. If election is UNCONDITIONAL, it means that they get to go to hell through no condition that has been set by God.
IOW,,,God decides, so it's through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

They go to Hell because of their sin. Period.

 

[GodsGrace]

They go to Hell because of their sin. Period.

NO reformed.
They go to hell because God passed over them and they are reprobate.
We ALL are born lost and in sin....
A JUST God tells us how to be saved...
He gives us an opportunity to be saved.
He doesn't just decide to send some to heaven and some to hell.

 

[reformed1689]

NO reformed.
They go to hell because God passed over them and they are reprobate.
We ALL are born lost and in sin....
A JUST God tells us how to be saved...
He gives us an opportunity to be saved.
He doesn't just decide to send some to heaven and some to hell.

Well that isn't what Scripture states.

 

[GodsGrace]

And you are wrong and misinterpret Piper and MacArthur.

Most Calvinists believe in free will in the meaning that we have the freedom to choose what we desire. I'm sure you agree with this. However, nobody desires God. Nobody is good, or righteous. So without a change in desire, a supernatural change, a dragging by God (which is in Scripture) nobody chooses God. That is Calvinism. That is what the Bible states.

We all choose what we desire. I said that.
So what's compatible free will then?

We're not speaking here about desiring God.
This is a different topic that goes to the idea of total depravity.

I'm talking about CHOICES that we make on a daily basis.
Are they FREE in calvinism?

And God changes the heart of every born again believer.

As to DRAGGING...that's a different topic too.
DRAWN has different meanings in Greek....
We can't discuss 3 things at one time.
Stick to who decides on who goes where....
and free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well that isn't what Scripture states.

You're telling me!

Scripture says that God planned for our salvation because He knew we would fail the Garden test.
So we have
John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does the above mean to you?