John Calvin and Calvinism.

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GodsGrace

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That's just it; Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards (and all those that have come after) were (are) not wrong about God's nature, because of what God Himself says about His nature, in His Word. Getting God's nature wrong is precisely the problem, though, and that's exactly what Pelagius and Arminius (and all those who have come after) did (do).

Grace and peace to you, GG.
You're an itelligent fellow PS.
You names Augustine...I'm sure you know he lived in the 5th century.
He was the only theologian that believed as Calvin did (Calvin learned from him, of course).
None of the early fathers believed in unconditional election and they all believed in free will.

But I would say that getting God's character right is the problem at hand.
If God has the character as Calvin believed (the reformed) then the reformed faith would be right.
If God has the character the rest of Christianity believes He does, then they would be right.

So how do we know what type of Character God has?


Is He a loving God? Did He make us to love His creation....or to damn most to hell?

Romans 5:6
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.



1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


John 3:17
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Psalm 86:15
15But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.


Psalm 136:26
Give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures forever.


Don't you believe God IS love? 1 John 4:8
Does He sound like the God in the Institutes?
 

GodsGrace

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I wouldn't find much to argue about here, but I think Piper is wrong in underestimating God's Sovereignty over creation.
Not a hair drops from your head that God isn't aware of.

I read a book a few decades ago written by a "particle " physicist and titled the "Tao of Physics". This author, though a pagan by biblical definition, arrived at the conclusion that even on the subatomic level, there is a clearly defined order of things in the universe that testifies to a quality of mind and control. Like Albert Einstein, he concluded that there must be something which we call God that holds the universe together by will, but also like Einstein, he was in no way prepared to accept the Lord, the God of scripture as that creative mind.
If a heathen can arrive at that conclusion from observation of the world, why would a Christian believe in a smaller god?
You should read a book by a particle physicist today.
First, I'd like to say that God fashioned the universe with laws.
These laws are followed by nature....this does not mean that He predestines every tree that will die.
It dies because something happened to it and the result will be death.
This was planned by God and nature works as God planned it.

It was once believed that particles - at that time atoms - had a definite path and method of functioning.
Today we know there are smaller particles than atoms. Some are called neutrons.
Science has found that these neutrons could move in different ways, depending on whether or not they're being observed.

Biblical free will is different from philosophical free will. Philosophical free will could be debated at infinitum.
Biblical free will is easy to understand (not in calvinism) and can be explained in a sentence.

So, yes, there is a clearly defined order of things...
but it also looks like something of the type of free will might even be present in the sub-atomic level.
 

GodsGrace

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Ok. So, if Calvin got it right, He was taught by God. However, God doesn't have a "nature" in that nature describes the qualities of creation. I use the word "character" instead as that applies to "likeness." I tend to be careful about that as scripture warns us about worshipping the creation rather than the creator and there are entire cults who've fallen to that error.
What do you mean by saying that if Calvin got it right he was taught by God?

Let's call it God's character if nature does not suit you.

Do you believe God IS love?
Does He have mercy on His creation? (us)
Is He a just God?
 

Lifelong_sinner

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What do you mean by saying that if Calvin got it right he was taught by God?

Let's call it God's character if nature does not suit you.

Do you believe God IS love?
Does He have mercy on His creation? (us)
Is He a just God?

the fact that God is just is the very reason the majority of mankind will end up in hell. Either you have a twisted belief about mankind being better than they really are, or you think God will simply overlook sin.
 

GodsGrace

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the fact that God is just is the very reason the majority of mankind will end up in hell. Either you have a twisted belief about mankind being better than they really are, or you think God will simply overlook sin.
You must stop telling me what I believe LL.
It makes it very difficult to speak to you.

How about answering my post instead?
 

GodsGrace

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the fact that God is just is the very reason the majority of mankind will end up in hell. Either you have a twisted belief about mankind being better than they really are, or you think God will simply overlook sin.
You never did answer my question regarding what JUSTICE means either...
What does it mean that God is JUST?
 

PinSeeker

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None of the early fathers believed in unconditional election...
Paul and Peter most assuredly did.

Paul said, regarding God's purpose of election, "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16)

And Peter said, "(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

And while these are Paul's and Peter's words, this is God's Word breathed into them by the Holy Spirit. We can disregard, if we are so inclined, any words by any mere man, but not so with God Himself.

...and they all believed in free will.
Sure they did, and I do, too... I would think everybody does. But if one is naturally dead in sin and a slave to unrighteousness ~ in Adam, which Paul is very clear about in Romans 5 regarding man's initial state from birth, death in Adam (which is the result of Adam's fall in Genesis 3) ~ he or she will never use that will to escape from that state because of this state of death and slavery he or she is in... will always be wholly inclined to remain in it and will always choose thusly. Unless he or she is freed from that slavery... So, again, God's election of certain sinners to salvation depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. That's not to say humans don't have free will, but only ~ only! :) ~ that God's election depends on God and His mercy and not on human will. I understand why that's hard for some to accept, but it is what it is.

But I would say that getting God's character right is the problem at hand.
That's a big part of it, yes.

If God has the character as Calvin believed (the reformed) then the reformed faith would be right. If God has the character the rest of Christianity believes He does, then they would be right.
Sure. Well, there are a lot of different beliefs out there about God's character and what it really is. It's not really Calvin against the "rest of Christianity," because the "rest of Christianity" as a big plurality of different "understandings." But sure.

So how do we know what type of Character God has?
By reading His Word, among other things. Prayer would be another, even if coming to know God's character is not immediately in view. God uses a lot of things to form us and to cause us to know Him ~ know Him, rather than just know about Him, although that should not be discounted either.

Is He a loving God? Did He make us to love His creation....or to damn most to hell?
See, here's the problem, really. This is just about the main thing it always boils down to: love. What so many do ~ inadvertently at best and intentionally at worst ~ is apply a human concept of love to God, who is not a human being... or, put a more appropriate way, vastly underestimate God's love and just how great His love really is. And this is pretty much the main reason for the objection. God's love is an active, pursuing, redeeming love, not a passive, "you have to love me first and then I'll love you" love. As John says (and you pointed out in this very post I'm responding to):

"...whoever loves has been born of God and knows God... In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins... We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:7, 10, 19; emphasis added)​

Yes, all the passages you pointed out are great passages. And this one that you pointed out ~ and I'm going to finish out Paul's complete statement here ~ I would exhort you to meditate on it for as long as it takes:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-5; emphasis added)​

Don't you believe God IS love? 1 John 4:8
I most certainly do. And so did John Calvin. And so do all reformed theology folks. Absolutely. But we realize just how big God's love is... or, at least, we don't underestimate it or sell it short like Pelagius and Arminius did and those that have come after them ~ inadvertently ~ do.

Does He sound like the God in the Institutes?
Sure does. The problem is the understanding of God's love that Pelagians/Arminians try to foist upon Calvin and his Institutes. And the underestimation of God's love ~ and God Himself and many of His other attributes (i.e. justice) ~ by folks of that persuasion.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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You never did answer my question regarding what JUSTICE means either...
What does it mean that God is JUST?

God is just and that means that He judges us impartially, He shows no favoritism. It means He is perfect as is His judgements and punishments. God was just and fair to punish adam and eve for sinning, God was just when He sent the bears to kill the kids for mocking Elisha, God was just for killing uzzah for touching the ark of the covenant, God was just when He made the Israelites wander the desert for 40 yrs for their unbelief in Him.

i could keep going, but i think you get the point. We are the clay, God is the potter. Whatever He does to us is just and fair and for His glory.
 

reformed1689

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Here is one example of Calvin contradicting himself, and contradicting Scripture at the same time.

Calvin’s commentary on John 3:16 (Bible Hub): SCRIPTURAL

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish...

That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTRADICTED IN CALVIN'S INSTITUTES: UNSCRIPTURAL
“We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment.” Institutes III. 21.7.


So either John Calvin was a very dishonest theologian, or he assumed nobody would catch him in his contradictions. And this is just one example. And Calvinists try to dodge all around this to claim that Calvin did not believe in Unlimited Atonement.
Where is the contradiction?
 

Enoch111

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Where is the contradiction?
Since I underlined and highlighted the contradictory statements -- those in blue vs those in red (and have also posted other contradictions) it should be obvious to anyone who understands blatant contradictions. Obviously you are trying to dodge the issue.

But let's make this real easy. You say today that the sky is blue (when it is in fact blue). But tomorrow when the sky is still blue you say "No, its red!" Everyone can see it is still blue but you have your own agenda for calling it "red".
 

reformed1689

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Since I underlined and highlighted the contradictory statements -- those in blue vs those in red (and have also posted other contradictions) it should be obvious to anyone who understands blatant contradictions. Obviously you are trying to dodge the issue.

But let's make this real easy. You say today that the sky is blue (when it is in fact blue). But tomorrow when the sky is still blue you say "No, its red!" Everyone can see it is still blue but you have your own agenda for calling it "red".
No, this is a classic case of they take Calvin OUT OF CONTEXT. There is not a contradiction here.
 
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michaelvpardo

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You should read a book by a particle physicist today.
First, I'd like to say that God fashioned the universe with laws.
These laws are followed by nature....this does not mean that He predestines every tree that will die.
It dies because something happened to it and the result will be death.
This was planned by God and nature works as God planned it.

It was once believed that particles - at that time atoms - had a definite path and method of functioning.
Today we know there are smaller particles than atoms. Some are called neutrons.
Science has found that these neutrons could move in different ways, depending on whether or not they're being observed.

Biblical free will is different from philosophical free will. Philosophical free will could be debated at infinitum.
Biblical free will is easy to understand (not in calvinism) and can be explained in a sentence.

So, yes, there is a clearly defined order of things...
but it also looks like something of the type of free will might even be present in the sub-atomic level.
Uh, particles like nuons, gluons, leptons, etc., have been observed since the first cyclotrons were built and postulated since the late 19th century and understood to some degree when I was taking college physics in 1977. It's not really new science.
I'm not sure that I believe in "predistination", but if Einstein's theory that time is a spatial dimension is true, and experimental evidence suggests that it is, then all time exists right now and we only experience it as a linear progressive state. This also implies that the creator of the Universe exists outside of time. The deist view would be that He sits back and watches, the biblical view is that He is in control of all things, especially nature (the view supported by the biblical text.)
It's our very understanding through the discipline of science that has corrupted our thinking about natural processes as being random, rather than guided by God. The Lord holds all things together by His will. He can dissolve the Universe just by letting go.
With a view to the theory of special relativity, everything that will happen, has happened at the moment of creation. In that sense everything is predetermined. There are newer theories that posit branching realities, but I'm pretty sure that they are just fantasy and science fiction as they would make the prophetic word meaningless.
 

michaelvpardo

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What do you mean by saying that if Calvin got it right he was taught by God?

Let's call it God's character if nature does not suit you.

Do you believe God IS love?
Does He have mercy on His creation? (us)
Is He a just God?
No, yes, yes. The English word love isn't an accurate translation of "agape". I don't believe that there is a single word in our language that conveys "agape" properly. We tend to think of love as an emotion and God is not an emotion. Agape is, if I've understood it, a verb, an action. In such terms God's justice can be understood as encompassed by agape (it ends the abusive nature of a rebellious humanity.)
I believe everything that the scripture says, or expresses through poetic imagery (not every word can be taken literally, but some passages can only be understood as expressing spiritual concept. Eg. God is Spirit and spirit is immaterial, so God didn't have a body until taking the form of man in the person of His Son. (The heavens are part of creation, so even the angels only experience some limited expression of God, but this isn't defined beyond "unapproachable light.")
 

GodsGrace

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God is just and that means that He judges us impartially, He shows no favoritism. It means He is perfect as is His judgements and punishments. God was just and fair to punish adam and eve for sinning, God was just when He sent the bears to kill the kids for mocking Elisha, God was just for killing uzzah for touching the ark of the covenant, God was just when He made the Israelites wander the desert for 40 yrs for their unbelief in Him.

i could keep going, but i think you get the point. We are the clay, God is the potter. Whatever He does to us is just and fair and for His glory.
You're funny LL!
A God that sends most of humanity to hell through no fault of their own is JUST?
He judges us impartially? How do you figure that?
He shows no favoritism?

I can't even really respond to this post...sorry.
 

GodsGrace

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Paul and Peter most assuredly did.

Paul said, regarding God's purpose of election, "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16)

And Peter said, "(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

And while these are Paul's and Peter's words, this is God's Word breathed into them by the Holy Spirit. We can disregard, if we are so inclined, any words by any mere man, but not so with God Himself.


Sure they did, and I do, too... I would think everybody does. But if one is naturally dead in sin and a slave to unrighteousness ~ in Adam, which Paul is very clear about in Romans 5 regarding man's initial state from birth, death in Adam (which is the result of Adam's fall in Genesis 3) ~ he or she will never use that will to escape from that state because of this state of death and slavery he or she is in... will always be wholly inclined to remain in it and will always choose thusly. Unless he or she is freed from that slavery... So, again, God's election of certain sinners to salvation depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. That's not to say humans don't have free will, but only ~ only! :) ~ that God's election depends on God and His mercy and not on human will. I understand why that's hard for some to accept, but it is what it is.


That's a big part of it, yes.


Sure. Well, there are a lot of different beliefs out there about God's character and what it really is. It's not really Calvin against the "rest of Christianity," because the "rest of Christianity" as a big plurality of different "understandings." But sure.


By reading His Word, among other things. Prayer would be another, even if coming to know God's character is not immediately in view. God uses a lot of things to form us and to cause us to know Him ~ know Him, rather than just know about Him, although that should not be discounted either.


See, here's the problem, really. This is just about the main thing it always boils down to: love. What so many do ~ inadvertently at best and intentionally at worst ~ is apply a human concept of love to God, who is not a human being... or, put a more appropriate way, vastly underestimate God's love and just how great His love really is. And this is pretty much the main reason for the objection. God's love is an active, pursuing, redeeming love, not a passive, "you have to love me first and then I'll love you" love. As John says (and you pointed out in this very post I'm responding to):

"...whoever loves has been born of God and knows God... In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins... We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:7, 10, 19; emphasis added)​

Yes, all the passages you pointed out are great passages. And this one that you pointed out ~ and I'm going to finish out Paul's complete statement here ~ I would exhort you to meditate on it for as long as it takes:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-5; emphasis added)​


I most certainly do. And so did John Calvin. And so do all reformed theology folks. Absolutely. But we realize just how big God's love is... or, at least, we don't underestimate it or sell it short like Pelagius and Arminius did and those that have come after them ~ inadvertently ~ do.


Sure does. The problem is the understanding of God's love that Pelagians/Arminians try to foist upon Calvin and his Institutes. And the underestimation of God's love ~ and God Himself and many of His other attributes (i.e. justice) ~ by folks of that persuasion.

Grace and peace to you.
Hi PS,
Do you suppose we could have a calm and slightly intelligent discussion about the reformed faith?
I find this rather difficult to do, but it might be possible with you.
Seems like most just want to prove their point...and that's OK as long as it doesn't go on forever.
I'm just trying to understand how anyone could believe in such a God as the reformed God.

So, one thing at a time....
I find that verses are taken out of context or are labeled DESCRIPTIVE....
for instance with John 3:16
Calvinists will say that it is describing those saved again and NOT PRESCRIBING HOW to become saved.

Let's just take one verse you posted above:
Romans 9:16 NLT
14Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! 15For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”i
16So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


Here it is in a more familiar version, which is the one I actually use...
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.


First, I have to say that Romans 9, 10 and 11 is discussing corporate salvation and not individual salvation.
Paul is trying to show the Jews that they have not believed in Jesus but the Gentiles have....
But anyway, here's how I understand verse 16:

It does not depend on us to decide who will be saved and who will not.
It does not depend on our works, or whatever other method we may wish to use to decide on our own what saves.
It's up to God to declare on whom He will have mercy...it's up to God to make the rules.
Not in deciding WHO will be saved...
but in deciding HOW one comes to be saved.
God decides on whom He will have mercy...
and He tells us which persons are the "who"...

It's God who knew we would fail (He did not predestine the failure) and created a plan to still save we humans, if we so wished.
The plan was The Christ and whether or not we chose to accept, believe, and follow Him.

If you want to get into Pharoah, I'm willing, but it seems to be a different topic.
Please explain how a calvinist understands Romans 9:16....

 

GodsGrace

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No fault of their own? Are you crazy?
See reformed...
your reply is why I find it so difficult to speak to Calvinists.

If you so desire, you could respond to my post no. 436 to the other poster.
No, I'm not crazy.
Are you?

Please explain, under the calvinist paradigm, how a person gets to go either to heaven or to hell.
Thanks.

And could we hold back on the name-calling?
 

reformed1689

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Hi PS,
Do you suppose we could have a calm and slightly intelligent discussion about the reformed faith?
I find this rather difficult to do, but it might be possible with you.
Seems like most just want to prove their point...and that's OK as long as it doesn't go on forever.
I'm just trying to understand how anyone could believe in such a God as the reformed God.

So, one thing at a time....
I find that verses are taken out of context or are labeled DESCRIPTIVE....
for instance with John 3:16
Calvinists will say that it is describing those saved again and NOT PRESCRIBING HOW to become saved.

Let's just take one verse you posted above:
Romans 9:16 NLT
14Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! 15For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”i
16So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


Here it is in a more familiar version, which is the one I actually use...
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.


First, I have to say that Romans 9, 10 and 11 is discussing corporate salvation and not individual salvation.
Paul is trying to show the Jews that they have not believed in Jesus but the Gentiles have....
But anyway, here's how I understand verse 16:

It does not depend on us to decide who will be saved and who will not.
It does not depend on our works, or whatever other method we may wish to use to decide on our own what saves.
It's up to God to declare on whom He will have mercy...it's up to God to make the rules.
Not in deciding WHO will be saved...
but in deciding HOW one comes to be saved.
God decides on whom He will have mercy...
and He tells us which persons are the "who"...

It's God who knew we would fail (He did not predestine the failure) and created a plan to still save we humans, if we so wished.
The plan was The Christ and whether or not we chose to accept, believe, and follow Him.

If you want to get into Pharoah, I'm willing, but it seems to be a different topic.
Please explain how a calvinist understands Romans 9:16....
With all due respect, this post is hogwash. Romans is not about corporate salvation or he would not have used SINGULAR terms rather than plural. It is clearly about individuals
 

reformed1689

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Please explain, under the calvinist paradigm, how a person gets to go either to heaven or to hell.
God decides whom He will save and whom He will give a change of heart. That is CLEAR in Scripture. He is the one that gives individuals to the Son. He is the one that gets the glory. Not us. We ALL deserve hell fire.