John Calvin and Calvinism.

[GaryAnderson]

what calvin said, is what Jesus said. You have no free will to get saved. The Bible says this.
Ephesians 1:4-6
John 6:44

As for mother teresa, understand that Jesus said NO ONE is good except God. Mother teresa was a sinner the same as me and you. We ALL deserve hell. Stop thinking you are a good person.
As far as works, they dont save, but they are a sign that you have been saved. Hitler is in hell, no need to worry about that. If you are of the elect, your works will show that you are saved. if you have secret thoughts of murder, i would question your salvation to begin with. No one that is saved would ever have those kinds of thoughts to begin with due to regeneration.

Okay, so you pick a verse and build a church around it.
I’m gonna pick another verse and build another church around it.
SMH

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Okay, so you pick a verse and build a church around it.
I’m gonna pick another verse and build another church around it.
SMH

Calvin merely repeated what the Bible says. Not my fault you dont like what it says.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Calvin merely repeated what the Bible says. Not my fault you dont like what it says.

Well…good luck in your journey with Calvin my friend.
This has been illuminating for me. If I believed in Calvin I might as well be an Atheist.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Well…good luck in your journey with Calvin my friend.
This has been illuminating for me. If I believed in Calvin I might as well be an Atheist.

not sure how you say calvinism in the same category as atheism.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well only having good knowledge of TULIP which is very biblically based, I can't speak to any of his contradictions.

1. But Calvin was a man and not God, so that could be one good reason.

2. Also once saved, He was not infused with perfect biblical knowledge from the onset. so all of us, if all our beliefs were written down would be guilty of contradicting ourselves we we grew in the knowledge of the Word.

3. Also We christians tend to make idols of men and so when a man shows himself to be a man that is considered a key figure, his humanity os counted against him far far worse than the little fish.

Calvin's commentaries were taken from his lectures. He had three scribes take down everything he said, and then the three versions were compared to ensure that it was an accurate record. Then Calvin edited the draft to correct anything that needed correcting. When giving his lectures, he didn't trust any translations, but learned Hebrew and Greek and became very competent in both, and so based his commentaries on the original languages. He also had access to a number of Greek manuscripts and noted differences in them and chose the versions of texts that made the best sense to him. He was very thorough, and subsequent commentators held him in very high regard to this very day.

 

[Enoch111]

Calvin merely repeated what the Bible says.

He repeated what the Bible said and then CONTRADICTED the Bible. Why are you being dishonest about what Calvin did, even after I showed you the contradiction.

 

[Rudometkin]

Salvation? But where is salvation here my friend?

In God's hand.

This is as bad as the atheists arguing that the universe came from nothing or that we or life, is a random mutation that happened by chance.

If God chooses, then it's bad...?

There's a view worse than atheism.

 

[Rudometkin]

Basically Calvinism says that there are a few chosen ones and the rest are damned to hell.

This is the most depressing idea I’ve read next to materialistic atheists.

It's outright offensive to those who esteem mankind more than God.

This view which closely aligns with atheism in mindset, says that there’s no difference between Adolph Hitler and Mother Teresa.

It's also interesting you compare the view which says 'God chooses' with atheism. Your mindset is honestly probably the most atheistic I've seen in this thread. You are clearly totally rebellious with God being in control. I wonder what He's using this occasion for. Perhaps for the purpose of exposure.

This view lets me get away with murder and to do whatever I want because in the end …. it doesn’t really matter because some are chosen and most are not.

If you are saved and happen to murder, John says you have an advocate with the Father. That's Jesus Christ. (1 John 2:1)

It's Jesus that lets you get away with murder.

Also, God's Sovereignty does not eliminate man's responsibility. Man is held responsible precisely because God is Sovereign.

Wow. Even reading the Horoscope is more hopeful.

If God chooses, then reading the Horoscope is more hopeful than what?

Where is your hope for Jesus? You're just exposing yourself here.

 

[GaryAnderson]

not sure how you say calvinism in the same category as atheism.

Well, this is what I’ve been trying to tell you my friend by using the moral argument and saying that your doctrine is very depressing.
But let me try again, maybe it will make you think about how similar this doctrine is to atheism.

Calvinism says that only a few are chosen and that Jesus died for the chosen only.
This means that everyone’s fate has been sealed.
Calvin who I think is an atheist, whether he realizes it or not says that his God is also an atheist as absurd as that sounds. God is an atheist!
Why?
Because he is taking away one key ingredient from humans: HOPE.
Without hope nothing really matters including our actions here in this life.
There are two traits that define a hopeless person: they’re suicidal or extremely dangerous. Because there’s nothing more dangerous than a person who’s got nothing to lose.
This view closely aligns with Nihilism where super depressed atheists go.

So, think about it and realize what the implications of an ideology could be.
And all of this happened because Calvin picked a couple of verses from the Bible and built a church around it.
Not a good idea to take things out of context my friend because it can lead to many contradictions.

According to Calvin even Satan himself could be part of the chosen ones. Yep even him.
So Jesus fighting him for 40 days in the dessert is kinda meaningless then.
I mean think about it !

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Well, this is what I’ve been trying to tell you my friend by using the moral argument and saying that your doctrine is very depressing.
But let me try again, maybe it will make you think about how similar this doctrine is to atheism.

Calvinism says that only a few are chosen and that Jesus died for the chosen only.
This means that everyone’s fate has been sealed.
Calvin who I think is an atheist, whether he realizes it or not says that his God is also an atheist as absurd as that sounds. God is an atheist!
Why?
Because he is taking away one key ingredient from humans: HOPE.
Without hope nothing really matters including our actions here in this life.
There are two traits that define a hopeless person: they’re suicidal or extremely dangerous. Because there’s nothing more dangerous than a person who’s got nothing to lose.
This view closely aligns with Nihilism where super depressed atheists go.

So, think about it and realize what the implications of an ideology could be.
And all of this happened because Calvin picked a couple of verses from the Bible and built a church around it.
Not a good idea to take things out of context my friend because it can lead to many contradictions.

According to Calvin even Satan himself could be part of the chosen ones. Yep even him.
So Jesus fighting him for 40 days in the dessert is kinda meaningless then.
I mean think about it !

this is the most backwards thinking i’ve ever seen concerning religion. Calvin an atheist????? Preposterous!!
Heres a few facts:
1. Calvin didnt build a church sround a few verses.
2. Calvin merely repeated what Jesus said.
3. The majority of mankind will end up in hell, Jesus said while many try, only a few will get in.
4. You cant choose to want to be saved. Paul tells us that no one seeks out God on their own.
5. Jesus death applies only to the elect. If He had died for everyone, then everyone would goto Heaven. Thats universalism and thats heretical.

 

[GaryAnderson]

this is the most backwards thinking i’ve ever seen concerning religion. Calvin an atheist????? Preposterous!!
Heres a few facts:
1. Calvin didnt build a church sround a few verses.
2. Calvin merely repeated what Jesus said.
3. The majority of mankind will end up in hell, Jesus said while many try, only a few will get in.
4. You cant choose to want to be saved. Paul tells us that no one seeks out God on their own.
5. Jesus death applies only to the elect. If He had died for everyone, then everyone would goto Heaven. Thats universalism and thats heretical.

I didn’t know about Calvinism until yesterday and you can see that I’m a bit shocked as to why you follow this man (Calvin).
I can also see that you’re not able to view things outside of your doctrine because you’re conflating Universalism with the Choice to seek out God.
According to Calvinism it seems that there’s no choice and this is what I’m trying to stress. No choice. No free will. It’s basically Pre-determinism.
But if this doctrine makes you happy than all the power to you my friend.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

How could you have free will to choose God??
I’m not following calvin, i merely recognize what he said the Bible says, the Bible actually said. Everything has been predetermined.

as is usual, you are having problems with his doctrine of election. You arent the first. Majority of people reject calvin for the same reason. But here is a site that may help you understand that it is Biblical.
What is the doctrine of election? | GotQuestions.org

 

[GaryAnderson]

There are so many things I want to say and I don’t think I’m able.
There are so many errors and assumptions in your doctrine such as “we are judging God” or “I don’t like God being in control”.
I mean … those are blinding and fueling you into taking this position that we have no free will in seeking God.
I mean it’s as basic as that. I want Jesus in my life, I NEED him in my life. But Calvin says “No”. Despite my desire to seek God, my fate has already been sealed so it’s doesn’t matter if I seek God or commit murder because …. My fate has already been sealed.
This doctrine also promotes laziness and hopelessness. God is doing all the work and I’m gonna sit and watch some TV or play video games.

Thanks for the link. I did read it and it didn’t reveal any new info to make me think more positively about this doctrine but take a look at this link and give it a read if you care enough.

Predestination vs Free Will — St. John Orthodox Church

 

[Rudometkin]

Calvin who I think is an atheist, whether he realizes it or not says that his God is also an atheist as absurd as that sounds. God is an atheist!
Why?
Because he is taking away one key ingredient from humans: HOPE.

It is possible to hope that God chose you?

If so, then I think you have some backpedaling to do.

But there are many other fundamental problems with this. Humans have no hope, therefore God does not believe in Himself? How can you make sense of this?

 

[Nancy]

How could you have free will to choose God??
I’m not following calvin, i merely recognize what he said the Bible says, the Bible actually said. Everything has been predetermined.

as is usual, you are having problems with his doctrine of election. You arent the first. Majority of people reject calvin for the same reason. But here is a site that may help you understand that it is Biblical.
What is the doctrine of election? | GotQuestions.org

Hello Lifelongsinner,
Just a question about evangelizing. Would/could you say to an unsaved person that you are evangelizing that "God loves you"?

 

[Rudometkin]

Hello Lifelongsinner,
Just a question about evangelizing. Would/could you say to an unsaved person that you are evangelizing that "God loves you"?

Great question, Nancy.

What if you're evangelizing to Esau?

Romans 9:13
...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

 

[GaryAnderson]

It is possible to hope that God chose you?

If so, then I think you have some backpedaling to do.

But there are many other fundamental problems with this. Humans have no hope, therefore God does not believe in Himself? How can you make sense of this?

I’m sorry but I don’t think you’re reading what I’m saying or appreciating the gravity of your doctrine and its lack of moral consequences.
If God has chosen me … that’s great, but this means that I’m still going to do what I want. If he has condemned me … I’m still going to do what I want.
This essentially makes me God and gives me an unlimited lack of accountability for my actions. This is so wrong with the whole message of Jesus and repentance and being humble … that I don’t even know where to begin.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Hello Lifelongsinner,
Just a question about evangelizing. Would/could you say to an unsaved person that you are evangelizing that "God loves you"?

i am merely trying to get people to not put up walls because of calvinism. Do i think you have to be a calvinist to get to Heaven?? No!!! I have no doubt that there are indeed catholics, lutherans, protestants, methodists, baptists, etc in Heaven.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I’m sorry but I don’t think you’re reading what I’m saying or appreciating the gravity of your doctrine and its lack of moral consequences.
If God has chosen me … that’s great, but this means that I’m still going to do what I want. If he has condemned me … I’m still going to do what I want.
This essentially makes me God and gives me an unlimited lack of accountability for my actions. This is so wrong with the whole message of Jesus and repentance and being humble … that I don’t even know where to begin.

gary, since this is a new thing for you, i genuinely want you to learn and understand at the very least what calvin is saying.
You mentioned that you need Jesus, you said NEED, in capitals. This is a chicken or egg question. Which came first? God calling you, or your desire and need for God? If you listen closely to calvin, he is telling you that God called you first, and this is why you have a need for Him. You are part of the elect!! That is great news!!

the natural man does not passionately think anything of God, let alone see a need for Him. The fact that you do, is proof that God has indeed called to you, and as a result of His irresistible grace, you cant fathom the possibility of not needing God. Thats 2 parts of TULIP. You are sealed for eternity gary. Rejoice and give thanks that God called to you.

 

[GaryAnderson]

gary, since this is a new thing for you, i genuinely want you to learn and understand at the very least what calvin is saying.
You mentioned that you need Jesus, you said NEED, in capitals. This is a chicken or egg question. Which came first? God calling you, or your desire and need for God? If you listen closely to calvin, he is telling you that God called you first, and this is why you have a need for Him. You are part of the elect!! That is great news!!

the natural man does not passionately think anything of God, let alone see a need for Him. The fact that you do, is proof that God has indeed called to you, and as a result of His irresistible grace, you cant fathom the possibility of not needing God. Thats 2 parts of TULIP. You are sealed for eternity gary. Rejoice and give thanks that God called to you.

I dunno dude but The whole morality of this existence just goes out the window with this doctrine.
I’m just a sinner who is seeking God.
I don’t think of myself as the chosen because that makes me a spoiled child , completely Irresponsible of my actions.