Tong2020 said:
So, in your doctrine, you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus. This clearly goes against what Jesus told us about that matter in John 6.
What verse?
Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ?
What verse, you asked. Your doctrine goes against the truth that Jesus said in verse 65, that
no one can come to Him unless it has been granted to him by My Father. Now, you teach that all men CAN come to Jesus reasoning that since all men are drawn to Jesus. Did the Father grant that all men to come to Jesus? That is a NO. Where in scriptures, you might ask. Read John 6:35-66.
Your other question is coming from your belief and not from scriptures. How could you ask then where in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ? For even as the apostles preached in the place and time during their ministry, it is without dispute that, at the same time, there were many at the instant time who died all over the globe who didn't get to have the opportunity as had those in Acts 2 for example. Even that testify to the truth that God's salvation of mankind is not by opportunity, but by His will. Where did you get the idea that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity? Have you not learned that God, before sending His Son for salvation, throughout history and by speaking through history, had shown what had become of man when the father of mankind, Adam, had sinned in the beginning of mankind, and what they do at every opportunity that God gave them to choose life over death, to choose and worship Him, and not some creature or creation whom they made to be as gods? If God's salvation were by such, do you not see where that would obviously end up for mankind? Mankind could have been lost a long time ago, if only it was not God's will that He will save mankind.
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Tong2020 said:
So, in your doctrine, since you take "come to Me" in verses 37, 44, and 65 to mean salvation, and you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus, what do you think it is that you really are teaching? Is that not teaching that all men will be saved? Think about that.
No, I am not teaching that all men will be saved; but that all men can be saved.
For those who are drawn to Jesus are not necessarily given to Jesus.
Yes, you may see and think that you are not teaching that all men will be saved. But what you say in your posts effectively teach that. It seems that you are not really reading John 6. For if you are, then you will not miss what Jesus said concerning those whom He said comes to Him, that He will by no means cast out and will raise them up at the last day. You say all are drawn, and say that all then can come to Jesus, not realizing what Jesus said in John 6:65, that no one can come to Him
unless it has been granted to him by My Father? Read the context and understand what Jesus meant in v.65 concerning the coming to Him and the granting of that by the Father.
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Tong2020 said:
You said "The two passages are indeed speaking of the same drawing effect of the Holy Spirit." Tell us, what does "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44 mean to you?
It means what I said in post #305 (
John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again")...
That they are given an opportunity to receive or reject Christ that is unhindered by the demonic and/or the fact that they were born dead in trespasses and sins.
Just as I thought is where the problem is, that is, from an incorrect take of "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44.
With regards John 12:32, try considering what verse 33 says as to the significance why He said what He said in verse 32. That clearly speaks of what the drawing means there. It is the attracting of the attention of not only the Jews but also of the Gentiles people to Him than it is the persuasion (deep conviction) of all peoples concerning Him. On the other hand, the drawing in John 6:44 isn't that, but is the work of God, the persuasion (deep conviction) of one concerning the Son, that which have one come to Jesus and is saved. Again, I'd say you really need to see what
"comes to Me" means in John 6:37, 44, and 65.
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Tong2020 said:
Again, misuse of scriptures there. For neither in Romans 8:29 nor in 1 Pet. 1:2 does it say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.
The scriptures in question teach that predestination is according to foreknowledge.
Not disputing that nor saying otherwise. And as I have pointed out, and which you seem to keep silent about, is that, neither in
Romans 8:29 nor in 1 Pet. 1:2 does it say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn. Again, a misuse of scriptures. As it is, you read into the verse that the foreknowledge of God spoken there refers to knowing the positive choice of receiving Christ by one. And with that and concerning them, you may well be comfortable in saying that God predestined them unto salvation. Following your line of thinking and reasoning, and such misuse of scriptures, then would it not also be comfortable to saying that those whom God foreknew that they would make a decision to reject Christ, that God predestined them unto damnation? Well,...that is the repercussion. And it's erroneous.
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Tong2020 said:
As I pointed out to you, truth is concerning the saved is that, God chose them first, and not the other way around as to say that God chose to save them only after God knew that they chose Him. Did you think about that?
Since God is choosing us from the perspective of eternity; and because He chooses us according to the counsel of His own will; therefore God is the primary chooser in the situation at hand.
But it should be clear that the Lord dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and that those who will believe and make it into the kingdom are already worshiping Him in eternity from His perspective. God knows who these people are and chooses them accordingly.
And it is not that He passively chooses us. He actively seeks us out. He puts all of His Omnipotence and sovereign love into finding us and apprehending us. The fact that He knows who we are before the foundations of the world does not mean that we chose Him and then He chose us. He chose us because He saw us in eternity worshiping Him; and He then created us in a certain fashion (Romans 9:23) and also orchestrated the events of our lives to make us into certain vessels that He foresaw we would become.
Nothing in what you said there change the truth that concerning the saved, God chose them first, and not the other way around. It is not that the saved chose God and after that, by God's foreknowledge, that God chose them to save. It is not that God saw first what they will do and after that, God have chosen and that God's choice was based on what He saw they will do.
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Tong2020 said:
Some people, as you do here, have misuse this verse, that this verse teaches that after a person dies, he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel. That interpretation clearly contradicts the truth that there is no second chance after death.
Not a second chance...for if the person already had an opportunity to receive Christ in their lifetime, a second opportunity will not be given to them after death.
But a first chance...if they never had an opportunity to receive Christ, I believe that God will give them a first and only opportunity to receive Christ after death; according to 1 Peter 4:6.
Still, that does not change that is a misuse of scriptures. I have already pointed out regarding 1 Peter 4:6, Peter does not say there that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.
Have you read yet the account about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in
Luke 16?
Between where the saved and the condemned, scriptures said there had been a "chasma" (chasm) fixed, so that those who want to pass from where they are to the other side, they cannot, either way. I hope you won't ignore the truth in those scriptures about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in
Luke 16 .
Tong
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