John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"

[Tong2020]

Those who are drawn to the Son may or may not be saved. Those who are not given to the Son will not be saved; those who are given to the Son will be saved.

Saying "Those who are not given to the Son will not be saved; those who are given to the Son will be saved" is saying that among those who are drawn (which you believe are all men), some are given by the Father to the Son and some are not. That those given to the Son will be saved and those who are not will not be saved. To that I agree. Clearly, there is no uncertainty pertaining to the matter of salvation for either of this two groups of people. But still you seem to be confused because, while you say that, you at the same time say that "Those who are drawn to the Son may or may not be saved.", which speaks of uncertainty. Well,.....

The doctrine is inherent in the scriptures in question. I also am asking you to substantiate your pov with scripture, that a man who is drawn to the Son, it is guaranteed that he is also given to Him.

What doctrine? What you say could not even be a doctrine as it presents confusion, much less, is inherent in John 6 sir.

Regarding what you insist is my point of view, let me repeat what I posted: It is not my point of view that being drawn to Jesus guarantees that they are also given to the Son, that is, relative to your reference verse of John 12:32. The drawing in John 12:32 is not the same as the drawing with reference to John 6:44. My point of view is exactly what Jesus said in John 6, that it is the Father that gives to Him people who can and will come to the Son. And these people, He will surely save and raise to life. And that not all people are given for that matter. That means that not all people will be saved. Also, coming to Jesus is not possible for one, unless such a one is drawn by the Father to Jesus, and unless such a one is given to Jesus. Clearly, John 6 teaches that one's coming to the Son, Jesus Christ, does not happen by one's own will and power, but by God's, and that, salvation is sure to them whom God had so given to the Son. You should read again John 6.

Now, regarding my POV I stated above, what question do you want to ask?
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Tong2020 said:
And I noticed, you have not really told me what "comes to Me" means to you, in John 6:37,44, and 65. I am thinking that this is very significant in our discussion here. So, please go ahead and tell us.

It means what it says....salvation. Whoever comes to the Lord, He will in no wise cast out.

So, for you, "comes to Me" means salvation. And that is the problem. Try taking that meaning to replace "comes to Me" in John 6:37, 44, 65, and it will not make much sense. What "comes to Me" means in John 6:37, 44, 65 is found in the context.

And this brings up a point.

In your pov, I assume that you believe that a man who is not of the elect cannot come to Jesus; or that if he were to come to Jesus he would not be accepted by Him.

As I said, my POV is exactly what Jesus said, that it is the Father that gives to Him people who can and will come to the Son. And these people, He will surely save and raise to life. Those people whom the Father gives, are they not the chosen for salvation, who will surely be raised to life? Yes they are. Now Jesus said "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father". So, to the question, can one come to Jesus if he is not among those chosen (elect) and have been granted to come to Him, the answer is no.

It begs the question of the person who desires to come to Jesus but wonders, "What if I am not of the elect? If I am not of the elect then I cannot come to Jesus or else He will not receive me if I come to Him."

Is this not contradictory to John 6:37?

The desire to come to Jesus, if it comes to one, could well be an indication that he is among the chosen (elect). To such, questions such as "What if I am not of the elect?" are really of no matter and concern. Nobody knows who the elect are, but God. Nobody knows if one is elect until he actually come to Jesus Christ.

Tong
R1126

 

[justbyfaith]

Now, regarding my POV I stated above, what question do you want to ask?

Do you not believe that all are drawn to Jesus at some point in their lives; but that being drawn to Jesus does not guarantee their salvation?

That it is only those who are given to Jesus who are guaranteed salvation; and that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn (John 1:12)?

If all are not drawn to Jesus, then some will never have the opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and will be cast into hell because they never had the opportunity to receive Christ. And this would mean that God arbitrarily chose them out for hell. It means He put them in hell for no other reason than that it was His "good" pleasure.

Is this the God you serve?

 

[Tong2020]

Do you not believe that all are drawn to Jesus at some point in their lives; but that being drawn to Jesus does not guarantee their salvation?

I do not believe that all men (that is, each and every individual man) are drawn to the Son. Even one who died in his infancy, or perhaps one who was born with mental disability and is so until his death, or perhaps one who belongs to a pagan tribe living out at some place maybe unknown to preachers of Jesus Christ, is proof that not all men (that is, each and every individual man) are drawn to the Son.

If by "being drawn", you are referring to John 12:32, then yes, being drawn to Jesus does not mean they are saved nor does it guarantee their salvation. For such drawing is not the same as the drawing in John 6:44.

That it is only those who are given to Jesus who are guaranteed salvation; and that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn (John 1:12)?

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Again, you misuse scriptures there and are reading into the verse, for John 1:12 does not say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.

If all are not drawn to Jesus, then some will never have the opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and will be cast into hell because they never had the opportunity to receive Christ. And this would mean that God arbitrarily chose them out for hell. It means He put them in hell for no other reason than that it was His "good" pleasure.

Is this the God you serve?

You seem to be suggesting that if all are not drawn to Jesus, that some never have the opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, that such is unfair. That would be like saying that God was unfair to all those persons such as those who died in their infancy, or perhaps those who were born with mental disability and is so until their death, or perhaps those who belong to pagan tribes living out at some place maybe unknown and had not heard of Jesus, who all had no opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

What is clear truth in John 6 is that, some are chosen and given by the Father to the Son and will be saved, and some are not. Another truth concerning the saved is that, God chose them first, and not the other way around as to say that God chose to save them only after God knew that they chose Him.

Regarding God's "good pleasure", let me comment on that with some questions: Was it God's good pleasure that He created Lucifer knowing that he will sin against Him? Was it God's good pleasure that He gave His only begotten Son and taste death? Was it God's good pleasure that He punishes sinners with death according to His justice? Do you know of one mistake or error that God did or one thing that God did that He was not pleased with?

Tong
R1127

 

[justbyfaith]

If by "being drawn", you are referring to John 12:32, then yes, being drawn to Jesus does not mean they are saved nor does it guarantee their salvation. For such drawing is not the same as the drawing in John 6:44.

In John 6:44, it only says that you cannot come to Jesus apart from being drawn to Him. In John 12:32, it is written that all are drawn to Jesus; which indicates that all can come to Jesus at the point of being drawn to Him; and at no other time.

The two passages are indeed speaking of the same drawing effect of the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Again, you misuse scriptures there and are reading into the verse, for John 1:12 does not say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.

Perhaps not; but the whole of scripture does indeed teach that God predestinates according to foreknowledge (see Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2).

You seem to be suggesting that if all are not drawn to Jesus, that some never have the opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, that such is unfair. That would be like saying that God was unfair to all those persons such as those who died in their infancy, or perhaps those who were born with mental disability and is so until their death, or perhaps those who belong to pagan tribes living out at some place maybe unknown and had not heard of Jesus, who all had no opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

I do believe that God preaches the gospel even to those who are dead (1 Peter 4:6); even to those who never had an opportunity in life to be saved through the gospel message within their lifetime.

So your argument is a moot point.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is my take on Calvinistic philosophy.

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8) and the Lord God is Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6)...

Therefore Irresistible Grace must be the reality.

That being the case, there are only two options:

1) Limited Atonement

2) Universalism

Limited Atonement is not the reality because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2).

Universalism is not the reality because there is a very real hell that people go to (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46).

Therefore, the reality that we find in holy scripture is that of Universal Atonement and Limited Salvation based on the choice of a free will.

How then is Irresistible Grace the reality?

What does it mean that love never fails and the Lord God is Omnipotent, if not Irresistible Grace?

It is that God's love will not fail to give every man a choice in the matter of whether or not he will receive or reject Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

A man can choose to reject the Lordship of Jesus Christ...and in doing so he will be choosing the furnace of fire.

Or, a man can receive Jesus as his Saviour and Lord...and in doing so he will be choosing heaven.

Each person is given an opportunity to either receive or reject Jesus Christ before the final tally is made on his or her judgment.

This is a window of opportunity in which they are given the option of receiving Jesus unhindered by the demonic and/or the fact that they were born dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[Tong2020]

In John 6:44, it only says that you cannot come to Jesus apart from being drawn to Him. In John 12:32, it is written that all are drawn to Jesus; which indicates that all can come to Jesus at the point of being drawn to Him; and at no other time.

The two passages are indeed speaking of the same drawing effect of the Holy Spirit.

I understand your zeal in defending your doctrine. But it does not make it to be what scriptures say, and only exposes its error and confusion.

You said "In John 6:44, it only says that you cannot come to Jesus apart from being drawn to Him." Here you acknowledge that one cannot come to Jesus unless drawn to Him. On the mix, you said "In John 12:32, it is written that all are drawn to Jesus; which indicates that all can come to Jesus at the point of being drawn to Him; and at no other time." Such confusion. For also in John 6, Jesus said of those who come to Him, he will raise up at the last day.

So, in your doctrine, you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus. This clearly goes against what Jesus told us about that matter in John 6. And I guess this is due to a mistake of what you make "come to Me" in verses 37, 44, and 65 mean. Check out the context. If you need help on this, just say so.

So, in your doctrine, since you take "come to Me" in verses 37, 44, and 65 to mean salvation, and you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus, what do you think it is that you really are teaching? Is that not teaching that all men will be saved? Think about that.

You said "The two passages are indeed speaking of the same drawing effect of the Holy Spirit." Tell us, what does "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44 mean to you?
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Tong2020 said:
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Again, you misuse scriptures there and are reading into the verse, for John 1:12 does not say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.

Perhaps not; but the whole of scripture does indeed teach that God predestinates according to foreknowledge (see Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2).

Again, misuse of scriptures there. For neither in Romans 8:29 nor in 1 Pet. 1:2 does it say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.

As I pointed out to you, truth is concerning the saved is that, God chose them first, and not the other way around as to say that God chose to save them only after God knew that they chose Him. Did you think about that?
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Tong2020 said:
You seem to be suggesting that if all are not drawn to Jesus, that some never have the opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, that such is unfair. That would be like saying that God was unfair to all those persons such as those who died in their infancy, or perhaps those who were born with mental disability and is so until their death, or perhaps those who belong to pagan tribes living out at some place maybe unknown and had not heard of Jesus, who all had no opportunity to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

I do believe that God preaches the gospel even to those who are dead (1 Peter 4:6); even to those who never had an opportunity in life to be saved through the gospel message within their lifetime.

So your argument is a moot point.

Some people, as you do here, have misuse this verse, that this verse teaches that after a person dies, he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel. That interpretation clearly contradicts the truth that there is no second chance after death. After physical death, them who are not in Christ, only awaits judgment. Peter does not say there that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached. In relation to this, please consider reading the account about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16.

Tong
R1128

 

[justbyfaith]

So, in your doctrine, you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus. This clearly goes against what Jesus told us about that matter in John 6.

What verse?

Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ?

So, in your doctrine, since you take "come to Me" in verses 37, 44, and 65 to mean salvation, and you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus, what do you think it is that you really are teaching? Is that not teaching that all men will be saved? Think about that.

No, I am not teaching that all men will be saved; but that all men can be saved.

For those who are drawn to Jesus are not necessarily given to Jesus.

You said "The two passages are indeed speaking of the same drawing effect of the Holy Spirit." Tell us, what does "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44 mean to you?

It means what I said in post #305 (John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again")...

That they are given an opportunity to receive or reject Christ that is unhindered by the demonic and/or the fact that they were born dead in trespasses and sins.

Again, misuse of scriptures there. For neither in Romans 8:29 nor in 1 Pet. 1:2 does it say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.

The scriptures in question teach that predestination is according to foreknowledge.

As I pointed out to you, truth is concerning the saved is that, God chose them first, and not the other way around as to say that God chose to save them only after God knew that they chose Him. Did you think about that?

Since God is choosing us from the perspective of eternity; and because He chooses us according to the counsel of His own will; therefore God is the primary chooser in the situation at hand.

But it should be clear that the Lord dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and that those who will believe and make it into the kingdom are already worshiping Him in eternity from His perspective. God knows who these people are and chooses them accordingly.

And it is not that He passively chooses us. He actively seeks us out. He puts all of His Omnipotence and sovereign love into finding us and apprehending us. The fact that He knows who we are before the foundations of the world does not mean that we chose Him and then He chose us. He chose us because He saw us in eternity worshiping Him; and He then created us in a certain fashion (Romans 9:23) and also orchestrated the events of our lives to make us into certain vessels that He foresaw we would become.

Some people, as you do here, have misuse this verse, that this verse teaches that after a person dies, he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel. That interpretation clearly contradicts the truth that there is no second chance after death.

Not a second chance...for if the person already had an opportunity to receive Christ in their lifetime, a second opportunity will not be given to them after death.

But a first chance...if they never had an opportunity to receive Christ, I believe that God will give them a first and only opportunity to receive Christ after death; according to 1 Peter 4:6.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
So, in your doctrine, you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus. This clearly goes against what Jesus told us about that matter in John 6.

What verse?

Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ?

What verse, you asked. Your doctrine goes against the truth that Jesus said in verse 65, that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted to him by My Father. Now, you teach that all men CAN come to Jesus reasoning that since all men are drawn to Jesus. Did the Father grant that all men to come to Jesus? That is a NO. Where in scriptures, you might ask. Read John 6:35-66.

Your other question is coming from your belief and not from scriptures. How could you ask then where in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ? For even as the apostles preached in the place and time during their ministry, it is without dispute that, at the same time, there were many at the instant time who died all over the globe who didn't get to have the opportunity as had those in Acts 2 for example. Even that testify to the truth that God's salvation of mankind is not by opportunity, but by His will. Where did you get the idea that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity? Have you not learned that God, before sending His Son for salvation, throughout history and by speaking through history, had shown what had become of man when the father of mankind, Adam, had sinned in the beginning of mankind, and what they do at every opportunity that God gave them to choose life over death, to choose and worship Him, and not some creature or creation whom they made to be as gods? If God's salvation were by such, do you not see where that would obviously end up for mankind? Mankind could have been lost a long time ago, if only it was not God's will that He will save mankind.
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Tong2020 said:
So, in your doctrine, since you take "come to Me" in verses 37, 44, and 65 to mean salvation, and you believe that all men are drawn and so, that all men CAN come to Jesus, what do you think it is that you really are teaching? Is that not teaching that all men will be saved? Think about that.

No, I am not teaching that all men will be saved; but that all men can be saved.

For those who are drawn to Jesus are not necessarily given to Jesus.

Yes, you may see and think that you are not teaching that all men will be saved. But what you say in your posts effectively teach that. It seems that you are not really reading John 6. For if you are, then you will not miss what Jesus said concerning those whom He said comes to Him, that He will by no means cast out and will raise them up at the last day. You say all are drawn, and say that all then can come to Jesus, not realizing what Jesus said in John 6:65, that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted to him by My Father? Read the context and understand what Jesus meant in v.65 concerning the coming to Him and the granting of that by the Father.
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Tong2020 said:
You said "The two passages are indeed speaking of the same drawing effect of the Holy Spirit." Tell us, what does "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44 mean to you?

It means what I said in post #305 (John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again")...

That they are given an opportunity to receive or reject Christ that is unhindered by the demonic and/or the fact that they were born dead in trespasses and sins.

Just as I thought is where the problem is, that is, from an incorrect take of "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44.

With regards John 12:32, try considering what verse 33 says as to the significance why He said what He said in verse 32. That clearly speaks of what the drawing means there. It is the attracting of the attention of not only the Jews but also of the Gentiles people to Him than it is the persuasion (deep conviction) of all peoples concerning Him. On the other hand, the drawing in John 6:44 isn't that, but is the work of God, the persuasion (deep conviction) of one concerning the Son, that which have one come to Jesus and is saved. Again, I'd say you really need to see what "comes to Me" means in John 6:37, 44, and 65.
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Tong2020 said:
Again, misuse of scriptures there. For neither in Romans 8:29 nor in 1 Pet. 1:2 does it say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn.

The scriptures in question teach that predestination is according to foreknowledge.

Not disputing that nor saying otherwise. And as I have pointed out, and which you seem to keep silent about, is that, neither in Romans 8:29 nor in 1 Pet. 1:2 does it say what you say, that they are given to Him because God foreknew that they would make a decision to receive Christ upon being drawn. Again, a misuse of scriptures. As it is, you read into the verse that the foreknowledge of God spoken there refers to knowing the positive choice of receiving Christ by one. And with that and concerning them, you may well be comfortable in saying that God predestined them unto salvation. Following your line of thinking and reasoning, and such misuse of scriptures, then would it not also be comfortable to saying that those whom God foreknew that they would make a decision to reject Christ, that God predestined them unto damnation? Well,...that is the repercussion. And it's erroneous.
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Tong2020 said:
As I pointed out to you, truth is concerning the saved is that, God chose them first, and not the other way around as to say that God chose to save them only after God knew that they chose Him. Did you think about that?

Since God is choosing us from the perspective of eternity; and because He chooses us according to the counsel of His own will; therefore God is the primary chooser in the situation at hand.

But it should be clear that the Lord dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and that those who will believe and make it into the kingdom are already worshiping Him in eternity from His perspective. God knows who these people are and chooses them accordingly.

And it is not that He passively chooses us. He actively seeks us out. He puts all of His Omnipotence and sovereign love into finding us and apprehending us. The fact that He knows who we are before the foundations of the world does not mean that we chose Him and then He chose us. He chose us because He saw us in eternity worshiping Him; and He then created us in a certain fashion (Romans 9:23) and also orchestrated the events of our lives to make us into certain vessels that He foresaw we would become.

Nothing in what you said there change the truth that concerning the saved, God chose them first, and not the other way around. It is not that the saved chose God and after that, by God's foreknowledge, that God chose them to save. It is not that God saw first what they will do and after that, God have chosen and that God's choice was based on what He saw they will do.
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Tong2020 said:
Some people, as you do here, have misuse this verse, that this verse teaches that after a person dies, he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel. That interpretation clearly contradicts the truth that there is no second chance after death.

Not a second chance...for if the person already had an opportunity to receive Christ in their lifetime, a second opportunity will not be given to them after death.

But a first chance...if they never had an opportunity to receive Christ, I believe that God will give them a first and only opportunity to receive Christ after death; according to 1 Peter 4:6.

Still, that does not change that is a misuse of scriptures. I have already pointed out regarding 1 Peter 4:6, Peter does not say there that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.

Have you read yet the account about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16?
Between where the saved and the condemned, scriptures said there had been a "chasma" (chasm) fixed, so that those who want to pass from where they are to the other side, they cannot, either way. I hope you won't ignore the truth in those scriptures about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16 .

Tong
R1129

 

[justbyfaith]

Did the Father grant that all men to come to Jesus? That is a NO. Where in scriptures, you might ask. Read John 6:35-66.

Does the fact that not all are granted to come to Jesus necessarily mean that all are not drawn to Jesus?

Your other question is coming from your belief and not from scriptures. How could you ask then where in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ? For even as the apostles preached in the place and time during their ministry, it is without dispute that, at the same time, there were many at the instant time who died all over the globe who didn't get to have the opportunity as had those in Acts 2 for example.

They would have the opportunity after passing into the next life if they would have no opportunity in this one.

Even that testify to the truth that God's salvation of mankind is not by opportunity, but by His will. Where did you get the idea that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity?

Romans 5:2, for one thing. For we place our faith in Jesus as an act of the will (Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17).

Yes, you may see and think that you are not teaching that all men will be saved. But what you say in your posts effectively teach that.

Only if being drawn to Jesus effectively means also being given to Him.

It seems that you are not really reading John 6. For if you are, then you will not miss what Jesus said concerning those whom He said comes to Him, that He will by no means cast out and will raise them up at the last day. You say all are drawn, and say that all then can come to Jesus, not realizing what Jesus said in John 6:65, that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted to him by My Father? Read the context and understand what Jesus meant in v.65 concerning the coming to Him and the granting of that by the Father.

Notice that the fact that no one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted to him by the Father is in the negative and not in the positive. It does not there say that they will come to Jesus if it has been granted to them (although I will admit that it says that elsewhere). It says that they cannot come to Jesus if it has not been granted to them. And it is also speaking of the granting and not of the drawing.

So then, no one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted to Him of the Father. But it being granted to them comes after they have been drawn to Him and they have made a decision for Christ.

I say to you truly that a man can be drawn to Jesus and yet not have it be granted to him that he will come to Him.

For everyone is drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and this means that being granted to Him is over and above the effect of being drawn; which (granting) happens when a man makes a decision to receive Jesus Christ of Nazareth as his Saviour and as his Lord.

With regards John 12:32, try considering what verse 33 says as to the significance why He said what He said in verse 32. That clearly speaks of what the drawing means there. It is the attracting of the attention of not only the Jews but also of the Gentiles people to Him than it is the persuasion (deep conviction) of all peoples concerning Him.

I don't see how verse 33 in any way affects my interpretation of verse 32 in the way that you seem to think that it should.

Jhn 12:32, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jhn 12:33, This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Following your line of thinking and reasoning, and such misuse of scriptures, then would it not also be comfortable to saying that those whom God foreknew that they would make a decision to reject Christ, that God predestined them unto damnation? Well,...that is the repercussion. And it's erroneous.

See Jude 1:3-4; which speaks of certain men's condemnation having been foreordained.

Nothing in what you said there change the truth that concerning the saved, God chose them first, and not the other way around. It is not that the saved chose God and after that, by God's foreknowledge, that God chose them to save. It is not that God saw first what they will do and after that, God have chosen and that God's choice was based on what He saw they will do.

It is that God saw them worshiping Him in heaven (eternity) and created them and also orchestrated the events of their lives so that the result that He sees will come about. So yes, it is not based on God looking down and seeing their choice; it is that God sees them in heaven worshiping Him as the result of the choice that they made on earth; and He chooses them accordingly.

Still, that does not change that is a misuse of scriptures. I have already pointed out regarding 1 Peter 4:6, Peter does not say there that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.

1Pe 4:6, For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Have you read yet the account about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16?
Between where the saved and the condemned, scriptures said there had been a "chasma" (chasm) fixed, so that those who want to pass from where they are to the other side, they cannot, either way. I hope you won't ignore the truth in those scriptures about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16 .

My only point here is that, if the rich man had never within his lifetime had an opportunity to receive Christ, that he would have been given that opportunity before being placed in his section of Hades.

Every person being judged, if they never heard of Christ in their lifetime, will have an opportunity to receive their judge as Saviour and Lord; and even with this, many will reject Him.

 

[Tong2020]

Does the fact that not all are granted to come to Jesus necessarily mean that all are not drawn to Jesus?

At least you acknowledge the truth that not all men are granted to come to Jesus.
As to your question, the answer is yes, if what you meant by drawn there is that in John 6:44. And the answer is no, if what you meant by drawn there is that in John 12:32.
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Tong2020 said: ↑
Your other question is coming from your belief and not from scriptures. How could you ask then where in the Bible that God will not give every man an opportunity to receive Christ? For even as the apostles preached in the place and time during their ministry, it is without dispute that, at the same time, there were many at the instant time who died all over the globe who didn't get to have the opportunity as had those in Acts 2 for example.

They would have the opportunity after passing into the next life if they would have no opportunity in this one.

If I ask you where that is coming from in scriptures, you will point to 1 Peter 4:6 which you misuse. Now, according to you, that the gospel is being preached to this day in the grave, to the unsaved dead who have not heard of the gospel in their lifetime, what is the sense and urgency of what Jesus told His disciples in the following passage: Mt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. ?
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Tong2020 said:
Even that testify to the truth that God's salvation of mankind is not by opportunity, but by His will. Where did you get the idea that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity?

Romans 5:2, for one thing. For we place our faith in Jesus as an act of the will (Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17).

There is nothing in Romans 5:2 that even give the slightest hint that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity. Where in Joshua 24:15? Nowhere. Clearly, misuse of scriptures. As well with Rev. 22:17.
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Tong2020 said:
Yes, you may see and think that you are not teaching that all men will be saved. But what you say in your posts effectively teach that.

Only if being drawn to Jesus effectively means also being given to Him.

The stumbling block is a misuse of John 12:32, an erroneous take of what "draw" there means. Another is mixing and confusing this drawing with the drawing spoken of in John 6:44.
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Tong2020 said:
It seems that you are not really reading John 6. For if you are, then you will not miss what Jesus said concerning those whom He said comes to Him, that He will by no means cast out and will raise them up at the last day. You say all are drawn, and say that all then can come to Jesus, not realizing what Jesus said in John 6:65, that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted to him by My Father? Read the context and understand what Jesus meant in v.65 concerning the coming to Him and the granting of that by the Father.

Notice that the fact that no one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted to him by the Father is in the negative and not in the positive. It does not there say that they will come to Jesus if it has been granted to them (although I will admit that it says that elsewhere). It says that they cannot come to Jesus if it has not been granted to them. And it is also speaking of the granting and not of the drawing.

Whether said in the negative or in the positive, it says the same thing. So, when one says that all (as the positive of "no one") men can come to Jesus, it is equally saying what is said in verse 65. At least, you here take notice that granting and drawing are not the same thing.

So then, no one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted to Him of the Father.

As you said "It says that they cannot come to Jesus if it has not been granted to them." In other words, they are not able (cannot) to come to Jesus unless the Father gives (grants) them the power to do so or enables them so.

But it being granted to them comes after they have been drawn to Him and they have made a decision for Christ.

I know of no scriptures that say what you say there. Unless you can show scriptures that teach that, that would remain to be your own words and teaching. And again, what do you mean when you say "drawn" there in your statement? Is it in the sense as used in John 12:32 or as used in John 6:44? You had been ignoring this clarificatory question for some time now.

You said "But it being granted to them..." What is it that is granted to them?

I say to you truly that a man can be drawn to Jesus and yet not have it be granted to him that he will come to Him.

For everyone is drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and this means that being granted to Him is over and above the effect of being drawn; which (granting) happens when a man makes a decision to receive Jesus Christ of Nazareth as his Saviour and as his Lord.

As I pointed out, the stumbling block is a misuse of John 12:32, an erroneous take of what "draw" there means. Another is mixing and confusing this drawing with the drawing spoken of in John 6:44. And still another is not understanding that the granting in John 6:65 is effectively the same sense as the giving in John 6:37. With due diligence, one could easily check out the Greek text and find that the word translated "gives" in v.37 and translated "granted" in v.65, are cognates of the Greek word "didómi" whose primary meaning is "give".

Our discussion with regards John 12:32 and John 6:37,44, and 65 apparently revolves around the meaning of "draw", "come to Me", and "granted". And I have been asking you what the words/phrase mean to you as a matter of clarification. You only have given what "comes to Me" means to you. Perhaps, it's high time you clarify what you take "draw", and "granted" means to you.
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Tong2020 said:
With regards John 12:32, try considering what verse 33 says as to the significance why He said what He said in verse 32. That clearly speaks of what the drawing means there. It is the attracting of the attention of not only the Jews but also of the Gentiles people to Him than it is the persuasion (deep conviction) of all peoples concerning Him.

I don't see how verse 33 in any way affects my interpretation of verse 32 in the way that you seem to think that it should.

Jhn 12:32, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jhn 12:33, This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Let me help with that then. Verse 33 tells us why Jesus said what he said in verse 32, that is, to signify or to give a sign or to make known or in Greek, sémainó, what death He should die. That is by crucifixion, which in verse 32, is this part, "lifted up from the earth". So, in verse 32, Jesus is saying in other words, that His death by crucifixion will draw all men unto Him, that is, attract the attention of all men (Jews and Gentiles alike). The drawing there is not the persuasion (deep conviction) of all men (Jews and Gentiles alike) concerning Him, His person. Now, this drawing in John 12:32 is not at all the drawing by the Father spoken in John 6:44 which is connected to the truth of one's coming to Christ, which concerning this coming is the certainty of salvation.
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Let me continue responding in another post so as not to make this post too long. See next post.

Tong
R1131

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
Following your line of thinking and reasoning, and such misuse of scriptures, then would it not also be comfortable to saying that those whom God foreknew that they would make a decision to reject Christ, that God predestined them unto damnation? Well,...that is the repercussion. And it's erroneous.

See Jude 1:3-4; which speaks of certain men's condemnation having been foreordained.

Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Foreordination is not what is spoken nor meant in Jude 1:4 JBF. Check out the Greek texts. The phrase "were marked out" was translated from the Greek word "prographó" which means to write before. So, it's not foreordination, but foretelling by writing about it beforehand. Besides, Jude refers there to ungodly men at the time the Lord Jesus Christ had already been manifested to the world and so excludes men before that time.

Again, I'd say, such use of scripture to support such erroneous idea is a clear misuse of God's words.
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Tong2020 said:
Nothing in what you said there change the truth that concerning the saved, God chose them first, and not the other way around. It is not that the saved chose God and after that, by God's foreknowledge, that God chose them to save. It is not that God saw first what they will do and after that, God have chosen and that God's choice was based on what He saw they will do.

It is that God saw them worshiping Him in heaven (eternity) and created them and also orchestrated the events of their lives so that the result that He sees will come about.

What God saw is nothing but and could only be but what God had in His plan of creation.

So yes, it is not based on God looking down and seeing their choice; it is that God sees them in heaven worshiping Him as the result of the choice that they made on earth; and He chooses them accordingly.

Regarding your first statement, at least you now acknowledge that their election is not based on God's foreknowledge of their positive response of receiving Jesus Christ. However, listen to what you say next. It's confusion and contradiction to the first statement. Besides, nowhere can we read in scriptures that effectively speak of that idea that God sees them in heaven worshiping Him.
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Tong2020 said:
Still, that does not change that is a misuse of scriptures. I have already pointed out regarding 1 Peter 4:6, Peter does not say there that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.

1Pe 4:6, For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

"For this cause...", for what cause?

"....WAS the gospel preached...", WAS preached and not is preached, and not being preached.

"..also to them that are dead,....", who are they that are dead according to the context?
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Tong2020 said:
Have you read yet the account about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16?
Between where the saved and the condemned, scriptures said there had been a "chasma" (chasm) fixed, so that those who want to pass from where they are to the other side, they cannot, either way. I hope you won't ignore the truth in those scriptures about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16 .

My only point here is that, if the rich man had never within his lifetime had an opportunity to receive Christ, that he would have been given that opportunity before being placed in his section of Hades.

Every person being judged, if they never heard of Christ in their lifetime, will have an opportunity to receive their judge as Saviour and Lord; and even with this, many will reject Him.

The matter whether the rich man had an opportunity to receive Christ in his lifetime has nothing to do with the point that between where the saved and the condemned, is a "chasma" (chasm) fixed, so that those who want to pass from where they are to the other side, they cannot, either way. Now, it seems you have another strange idea that the dead, who supposedly had not the opportunity to receive Christ in his lifetime, will have the opportunity to do so while in their grave and prior to his going to that place where the rich man was as spoken in Luke 16. I'm pretty sure that such idea could not be found elsewhere in scriptures. If that is not your own making of an idea, it is best that you cite scriptures that effectively teach that.

You said "Every person being judged, if they never heard of Christ in their lifetime, will have an opportunity to receive their judge as Saviour and Lord; and even with this, many will reject Him." Please give reference scriptures that effectively say that.

Tong
R1132

 

[justbyfaith]

As to your question, the answer is yes, if what you meant by drawn there is that in John 6:44. And the answer is no, if what you meant by drawn there is that in John 12:32.

The answer is either yes or no for both verses. It cannot be both "yea" and "nay". If it is yes for one it is yes for the other. If it is no for one it is no for the other.

If I ask you where that is coming from in scriptures, you will point to 1 Peter 4:6 which you misuse. Now, according to you, that the gospel is being preached to this day in the grave, to the unsaved dead who have not heard of the gospel in their lifetime, what is the sense and urgency of what Jesus told His disciples in the following passage: Mt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. ?

There is a sense and urgency that is given by the Holy Spirit. For those who are only given an opportunity after death will not have the same ability to receive Christ as those who are given an opportunity on earth; being on earth they will not be faced with the presence of God as judge and the foreboding that accompanies being in that presence.

There is nothing in Romans 5:2 that even give the slightest hint that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity. Where in Joshua 24:15? Nowhere. Clearly, misuse of scriptures. As well with Rev. 22:17.

I disagree.

The stumbling block is a misuse of John 12:32, an erroneous take of what "draw" there means. Another is mixing and confusing this drawing with the drawing spoken of in John 6:44.

Ok. What is the difference between these two drawings?

At least, you here take notice that granting and drawing are not the same thing.

I have said this from the getgo. And I have also said many other things from the getgo, which you have come along and said that I now agree with you on the subject; when I said what I said from the getgo. And that is starting to get old.

I know of no scriptures that say what you say there. Unless you can show scriptures that teach that, that would remain to be your own words and teaching.

I know of no scriptures that say what you say on the subject. So I suppose that we are even.

As I pointed out, the stumbling block is a misuse of John 12:32, an erroneous take of what "draw" there means.

What does "draw" there mean?

Another is mixing and confusing this drawing with the drawing spoken of in John 6:44.

It seems to me that in John 6:44, no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them; which is not contradictory to the idea that Jesus draws all men to Himself and that this does not mean that the Father gives all men to Jesus.

For it means that the Father enables a man to come to Jesus when He draws him; not that He guarantees that he will come to Jesus.

Our discussion with regards John 12:32 and John 6:37,44, and 65 apparently revolves around the meaning of "draw", "come to Me", and "granted". And I have been asking you what the words/phrase mean to you as a matter of clarification. You only have given what "comes to Me" means to you. Perhaps, it's high time you clarify what you take "draw", and "granted" means to you.

You first (also what you mean by "come to me").

That is by crucifixion, which in verse 32, is this part, "lifted up from the earth". So, in verse 32, Jesus is saying in other words, that His death by crucifixion will draw all men unto Him, that is, attract the attention of all men (Jews and Gentiles alike).

It does not say in verse 33 anything about Jew and Gentile. It says "all men". You have added your own interpretation and therefore "are misusing that scripture".

Now, this drawing in John 12:32 is not at all the drawing by the Father spoken in John 6:44 which is connected to the truth of one's coming to Christ, which concerning this coming is the certainty of salvation.

Here is where you miss it. In John 6:44 it does not say that there is a certainty of salvation for those who are drawn to Jesus.

It says there that they cannot come to Jesus unless He draws them.

This means that, in the drawing, He enables them to come to Him; not that He guarantees that they will come to Him..

Besides, nowhere can we read in scriptures that effectively speak of that idea that God sees them in heaven worshiping Him.

If I give a reference, will you not say that it is invalid? But the reference that I will give is Isaiah 57:15; to say that God is outside of time; and therefore He sees the redeemed from the perspective of them already worshiping Him in heaven.

Please give reference scriptures that effectively say that.

I do not only draw on what is written, but on what is said within the church (see Luke 4:12) and on what the Holy Spirit teaches (John 16:13).

If everything that can be said about the faith were contained in holy scripture alone, it would be a much larger New Testament (see also John 21:25)..

 

[justbyfaith]

But it being granted to them comes after they have been drawn to Him and they have made a decision for Christ.

I know of no scriptures that say what you say there. Unless you can show scriptures that teach that, that would remain to be your own words and teaching.

This (what is quoted from me above) is what the reality is. But the fact that the concept goes against your Calvinistic theology means that you have to somehow refute it if you are going to keep your theology; and you attempt to do so by claiming that there are no other scriptures that substantiate this pov.

But I would say to you that there are not any scriptures that actually refute this pov; and therefore you must consider it as a possibility.

That being drawn to Him does not necessarily mean being granted to Him is what I have been saying all along.

And that this means that a man can be drawn to Jesus while he may not necessarily come to Jesus as the result of being drawn.

Therefore, the concept that all men are drawn to Christ does not create the idea of Universalism as you previously contended. For they can be drawn to Christ and yet not come to Christ.

For I consider that being drawn to Christ means that they are given the opportunity to receive Christ apart from demonic influence and/or the hindering effect that might be there because they were born in trespasses and sins. It also does not guarantee that they will come to Christ; it merely provides the opportunity for them to do so.

 

[Tong2020]

The answer is either yes or no for both verses. It cannot be both "yea" and "nay". If it is yes for one it is yes for the other. If it is no for one it is no for the other.

That is because you take "draw" in both scriptures to mean the same thing, which they are not. I have already repeatedly explained and shown that to you in my posts, for which you just insist that they mean the same, without explanation to support your take.

There is a sense and urgency that is given by the Holy Spirit. For those who are only given an opportunity after death will not have the same ability to receive Christ as those who are given an opportunity on earth; being on earth they will not be faced with the presence of God as judge and the foreboding that accompanies being in that presence.

What sense and urgency is there to preach the gospel to those who are alive, when even the gospel, as you believe (though without scriptural basis), is preached to the dead in their graves? That's utter nonsense I have to say. Well, if you so believe that idea......
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Tong2020 said:
There is nothing in Romans 5:2 that even give the slightest hint that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity. Where in Joshua 24:15? Nowhere. Clearly, misuse of scriptures. As well with Rev. 22:17.

I disagree.

So you simply disagree that there is nothing in Romans 5:2 that even give the slightest hint that God's salvation is by the giving of opportunity, and also in Joshua 24:15, as well as in Rev. 22:17. Well,...
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Tong2020 said:
The stumbling block is a misuse of John 12:32, an erroneous take of what "draw" there means. Another is mixing and confusing this drawing with the drawing spoken of in John 6:44.

Ok. What is the difference between these two drawings?

It seems you are not reading my posts, that you are asking this here. Go to my post #308. The answer to your question here is in there. Or let me just cut and paste that portion here for your convenience.

Just as I thought is where the problem is, that is, from an incorrect take of "draw" in John 12:32 and John 6:44.

With regards John 12:32, try considering what verse 33 says as to the significance why He said what He said in verse 32. That clearly speaks of what the drawing means there. It is the attracting of the attention of not only the Jews but also of the Gentiles people to Him than it is the persuasion (deep conviction) of all peoples concerning Him. On the other hand, the drawing in John 6:44 isn't that, but is the work of God, the persuasion (deep conviction) of one concerning the Son, that which have one come to Jesus and is saved. Again, I'd say you really need to see what "comes to Me" means in John 6:37, 44, and 65.

And here's another in post #310.

Let me help with that then. Verse 33 tells us why Jesus said what he said in verse 32, that is, to signify or to give a sign or to make known or in Greek, sémainó, what death He should die. That is by crucifixion, which in verse 32, is this part, "lifted up from the earth". So, in verse 32, Jesus is saying in other words, that His death by crucifixion will draw all men unto Him, that is, attract the attention of all men (Jews and Gentiles alike). The drawing there is not the persuasion (deep conviction) of all men (Jews and Gentiles alike) concerning Him, His person. Now, this drawing in John 12:32 is not at all the drawing by the Father spoken in John 6:44 which is connected to the truth of one's coming to Christ, which concerning this coming is the certainty of salvation.

I know of no scriptures that say what you say on the subject. So I suppose that we are even.

Well, what I have been saying on the subject is with reference to John 6. However what you say, that is, "But it being granted to them comes after they have been drawn to Him and they have made a decision for Christ." is nowhere found in John 6. That is why I ask you if you have reference scriptures that effectively say what you say there. I know of none.

What does "draw" there mean?

See one of the segments above. Now, would you tell me now what "draw" mean which you say is the same in John 12:32 and John 6:44?
______________
Tong2020 said:
Our discussion with regards John 12:32 and John 6:37,44, and 65 apparently revolves around the meaning of "draw", "come to Me", and "granted". And I have been asking you what the words/phrase mean to you as a matter of clarification. You only have given what "comes to Me" means to you. Perhaps, it's high time you clarify what you take "draw", and "granted" means to you.

You first.

Me first? Why is that? You had been responding without requesting for clarification, unless you change your mind. On the other hand, I have been asking you for clarification that I asked the question. So, please go ahead and clarify.

It does not say in verse 33 anything about Jew and Gentile. It says "all men". You have added your own interpretation and therefore "are misusing that scripture".

The phrase "all men" or "all people" includes both Jews and Gentiles sir. Nothing added. No misuse.

At least you don't have any other objection to what I said there, except that.

Here is where you miss it. In John 6:44 it does not say that there is a certainty of salvation for those who are drawn to Jesus.

I did not at all say that John 6:44 say that there is certainty of salvation for those who are drawn to Jesus. What I said is this "Now, this drawing in John 12:32 is not at all the drawing by the Father spoken in John 6:44 which is connected to the truth of one's coming to Christ, which concerning this coming is the certainty of salvation."

It says there that they cannot come to Jesus unless He draws them.

This means that, in the drawing, He enables them to come to Him; not that He guarantees that they will come to Him..

No one is saying anything with reference to John 6:44 about such guarantee.

What you need to consider, if you want to understand what v.44 is saying, is read the context. Many of the disciples, those who follow Him, those who seek Him, of the Jews, complained and quarreled among themselves concerning the things that Jesus said to them, so that Jesus told them not to do so and said what He said in v.44. Verse 45 will help you understand further what Jesus meant by what He said in verse 44.
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Tong2020 said:
Besides, nowhere can we read in scriptures that effectively speak of that idea that God sees them in heaven worshiping Him.

If I give a reference, will you not say that it is invalid? But the reference that I will give is Isaiah 57:15; to say that God is outside of time; and therefore He sees the redeemed from the perspective of them already worshiping Him in heaven.

Go ahead, give a reference scripture, and find out. I will have to examine what scriptures you give. If it's Isaiah 57:15, then you yourself know that it does not say nor does it effectively
speak of that idea that God sees them in heaven worshiping Him. Moreso does it support your teaching that God's election of people unto salvation is based on such foreknowledge.

I do not only draw on what is written, but on what is said within the church (see Luke 4:12) and on what the Holy Spirit teaches (John 16:13).

If everything that can be said about the faith were contained in holy scripture alone, it would be a much larger New Testament.

Luke 4:And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

What do you want to say in reference to Luke 4:12?

And you seem to say here, since you apparently can't provide any reference scriptures that I was asking, that the Holy Spirit teaches you things apart from what is written in scriptures? Well,...that would be opening a door where anything goes. One could always point to that to support any doctrine he makes up and teaches. A very dangerous and perilous misuse of John 16:13, I have to say.

Tong
R1133

 

[Tong2020]

justbyfaith said:
But it being granted to them comes after they have been drawn to Him and they have made a decision for Christ.

This (what is quoted from me above) is what the reality is. But the fact that the concept goes against your Calvinistic theology means that you have to somehow refute it if you are going to keep your theology; and you attempt to do so by claiming that there are no other scriptures that substantiate this pov.

But I would say to you that there are not any scriptures that actually refute this pov; and therefore you must consider it as a possibility.

That being drawn to Him does not necessarily mean being granted to Him is what I have been saying all along.

And that this means that a man can be drawn to Jesus while he may not necessarily come to Jesus as the result of being drawn.

Therefore, the concept that all men are drawn to Christ does not create the idea of Universalism as you previously contended. For they can be drawn to Christ and yet not come to Christ.

For I consider that being drawn to Christ means that they are given the opportunity to receive Christ apart from demonic influence and/or the hindering effect that might be there because they were born in trespasses and sins. It also does not guarantee that they will come to Christ; it merely provides the opportunity for them to do so.

I will have to respond to what you've written in this post after you have made clarification on what "draw", "comes to Me", and "granted", with regards John 12:32 and John 6:37,44, and 65, means to you, since that will clarify a lot of what you say here.

Tong
R1134

 

[justbyfaith]

Since you do not accept the scriptures that I quote as saying what I know they are saying, I conclude that you are not capable of interpreting the scriptures that are given to you to think on (I am referring here, at the very least, to Isaiah 57:15; from which it can clearly be inferred that God is in eternity and therefore sees the saints in heaven worshiping Him from the perspective of being in eternity).

Since you can only take scripture to mean what it directly says in any given sentence; and cannot consider the implications of any given scripture and what it might mean, as you meditate on what it means (see Psalms 1); and also do not accept the insight that I give concerning specific scriptures;

And since it appears to me that you are in a kind of debate mode (see Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21) and not in a mode where you want to learn;

I think that I desire to discontinue this conversation with you.

I have shown forth the things that you need to understand in order to be set free from your Calvinistic philosophy.

I have shown forth that a person who is drawn to Jesus will not necessarily come to Him.

If you will read your verses in John 6 over again with this in mind, I believe that you will come to a different conclusion than the one that you previously had.

Other than this, I find that this conversation is not a fruitful one.

I will say this:

That it is the aim of evangelism to bring about a decision to place one's faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour; and that I believe that Calvinistic philosophy undermines a person's understanding that they need in order to make such a decision.

For in Calvinism, the person does not come to God by making a decision to follow Christ; but they are to sit passively and wait for the Lord to save them apart from any seeking of the Lord on their part.

However, Deuteronomy 4:29 and Jeremiah 29:13 would tell us that the Lord desires that we should seek Him, even with all of our hearts. See also Psalms 27:8.

Also, scripture is clear that we come to God on the basis of our choice, even in free will (Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17).

However, Calvinism teaches that we cannot come to God; but that we are completely at the mercy of whether or not He will choose arbitrarily to "elect" us. Therefore, I may want to be saved; but if God decides against such a proposition I am out of luck. (While I know that I am saved because I did what the scripture gives as a condition for the promise of being saved, in Romans 10:13):

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In Calvinism, if I am not of the elect, I will not be saved even if I call upon the name of the Lord; but such an idea is contrary to the scripture above.

I know that I can take the scripture above to the bank and I know that I know that I know that I am saved because I have fulfilled the condition of the promise. His Spirit also bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. And His Spirit bears witness with my spirit through the scripture above.

Also in Calvinism, I find that there is no basis for a turning point.

At what point does a man find that he is saved in the doctrine in question? For he is not saved through making a decision for Christ in that doctrine; but apparently the Lord will reach down and save him apart from any surrender of the heart to His will; apart from any change in direction (repentance) accomplished by the person in question.

So then, what is the basis for saying that a man has been saved? For there is really no repentance that is required in Calvinism; but a man is supposed to sit quietly and wait for the Lord to save him apart from any decision on his part to follow the Lord.

Just a few of my thoughts on the preposterousness of the notion being discussed.

I leave you with this.

If I feel compelled to respond to what you are going to say in response to this post, then I will respond; but I really do prefer to end this conversation at this point for the reasons that I stated above.

 

[Tong2020]

Since you do not accept the scriptures that I quote as saying what I know they are saying, I conclude that you are not capable of interpreting the scriptures that are given to you to think on (I am referring here, at the very least, to Isaiah 57:15; from which it can clearly be inferred that God is in eternity and therefore sees the saints in heaven worshiping Him from the perspective of being in eternity).

Since you can only take scripture to mean what it directly says in any given sentence; and cannot consider the implications of any given scripture and what it might mean, as you meditate on what it means (see Psalms 1); and also do not accept the insight that I give concerning specific scriptures;

Not that I don't accept the scriptures that you quote sir. It's the misuse that is the issue, for which I don't only say it's a misuse, but show and explain to you why I say it's a misuse.

You said "I conclude that you are not capable of interpreting the scriptures.......". Is that not falling into ad hominem? Why resort to such? The Christian, you and I for one, is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and are therefore enabled to understand scriptures, having been given spiritual discernment unlike the natural sinful unquickened man. However, we are still in the body of death, the flesh, not yet perfect, and so do make mistakes, as from time to time, we are overcome by the weakness of our flesh, like when we try to understand the things of the Spirit of God using the wisdom, reasoning, and thinking of the world. Also, even while Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we acknowledge that, each have different levels of maturity, giftings, calling or ministry, measure of faith, etc. We may now be so in this life, but in God's time, that will change.

Regarding Isaiah 57:15, I do not dispute your point that it can be inferred there that God being in eternity, sees everything (past, present, future, relative to time). What I take issue concerning that is, the misuse of it to support your doctrine that God's election of people unto salvation is based on the foreknowledge of God that He saw them in heaven worshiping Him. If you take Isaiah 57:15 as saying that, even by inference, then many other strange doctrines could as well easily find support with it, for a lot of things could be inferred in it. And that's not a proper, sound, and solid way in coming up and supporting a doctrine. Besides, what "God inhabits eternity" means, we can't even fully grasp. The point being is that, one could infer just about anything in Isaiah 57:15, according to his take of what for him "God inhabits eternity" is.

You said "Since you can only take scripture to mean what it directly says in any given sentence;....". That's not how it is with me sir. Let me give you an example. John 6:37 says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." What does the sentence directly says? 1. the Father gives people to Jesus, 2. said people will come to Jesus, 3. said people will be certainly saved by Jesus. Do I take only that and stop at that? No sir. There is this matter in the sentence, that is, "comes to Me" which needs for the Christian reader to consider and meditate on what it means. That is why, this is one of those that I ask of you for clarification in our discussion of the scriptures in John 6, as to what it means to you. You said it means salvation. See? What it means greatly affects what the entire sentence says. Yes, "come to Me" and "comes to Me" is connected and related to salvation, but it does not mean salvation.

Tong
R1136

 

[justbyfaith]

There is this matter in the sentence, that is, "comes to Me" which needs for the Christian reader to consider and meditate on what it means. That is why, this is one of those that I ask of you for clarification in our discussion of the scriptures in John 6, as to what it means to you. You said it means salvation. See? What it means greatly affects what the entire sentence says. Yes, "come to Me" and "comes to Me" is connected and related to salvation, but it does not mean salvation.

It does indeed mean salvation; because Jesus said that whoever comes to Him, He will by no means cast out.

In other words, those who come to Jesus are accepted in the kingdom.

 

[Tong2020]

And since it appears to me that you are in a kind of debate mode (see Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21) and not in a mode where you want to learn;

I think that I desire to discontinue this conversation with you.

I am in a debate mode? Not at all sir. It is but natural, where there is disagreement between two conversing people, to argue. I am not here for the sake of arguing, but to share to and be shared by, of the things of the Spirit of God written in scriptures, and even of the goodness of God in the lives of those who are in Christ. One who is just after a debate and the winning of an argument does not care to ask for clarification as to what the other say. I asked for you to clarify your take as to what certain words and phrases in the reference verses in our discussion means, as I want for me to understand what you say more certainly and accurately, and perhaps see where our disagreement is coming from. That isn't at all a debate mode sir.

I wonder why until now you refuse to fully grant my request for clarification on the meaning of certain words. You have told me what to you "comes to Me" means, that to you it means salvation. But you haven't done so with the words "draw" and "granted". I don't know what seems to be your problem with that.

I have shown forth the things that you need to understand in order to be set free from your Calvinistic philosophy.

I have shown forth that a person who is drawn to Jesus will not necessarily come to Him.

If you will read your verses in John 6 over again with this in mind, I believe that you will come to a different conclusion than the one that you previously had.

Other than this, I find that this conversation is not a fruitful one.

Firstly, I don't really care much of what is called Calvinistic philosophy or what. So, do not think I am a prisoner of Calvinistic philosophy that you try to set me free from it. What I do care of much is what God, in scriptures, says.

Again you stated about people "drawn" to Jesus. As I said, I need for you to clarify what "draw" means to you. I don't want to guess anymore, for it will just be for naught.

I believe, and so I pray, that this conversation would be of good not only to both of us, but even to them who follow this conversation. The matter is whether it is now or later. That belongs to the Holy Spirit.

I will say this:

That it is the aim of evangelism to bring about a decision to place one's faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour; and that I believe that Calvinistic philosophy undermines a person's understanding that they need in order to make such a decision.

Well, we are not out to evangelize each other, or do you? For this is what I know, that you and I had placed our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Away with so called Calvinistic philosophy, as we are not discussing any of that, and I am not going into that.

For in Calvinism, the person does not come to God by making a decision to follow Christ; but they are to sit passively and wait for the Lord to save them apart from any seeking of the Lord on their part.

However, Deuteronomy 4:29 and Jeremiah 29:13 would tell us that the Lord desires that we should seek Him, even with all of our hearts. See also Psalms 27:8.

Also, scripture is clear that we come to God on the basis of our choice, even in free will (Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17).

However, Calvinism teaches that we cannot come to God; but that we are completely at the mercy of whether or not He will choose arbitrarily to "elect" us. Therefore, I may want to be saved; but if God decides against such a proposition I am out of luck. (While I know that I am saved because I did what the scripture gives as a condition for the promise of being saved, in Romans 10:13):

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In Calvinism, if I am not of the elect, I will not be saved even if I call upon the name of the Lord; but such an idea is contrary to the scripture above.

I know that I can take the scripture above to the bank and I know that I know that I know that I am saved because I have fulfilled the condition of the promise. His Spirit also bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. And His Spirit bears witness with my spirit through the scripture above.

Also in Calvinism, I find that there is no basis for a turning point.

At what point does a man find that he is saved in the doctrine in question? For he is not saved through making a decision for Christ in that doctrine; but apparently the Lord will reach down and save him apart from any surrender of the heart to His will; apart from any change in direction (repentance) accomplished by the person in question.

So then, what is the basis for saying that a man has been saved? For there is really no repentance that is required in Calvinism; but a man is supposed to sit quietly and wait for the Lord to save him apart from any decision on his part to follow the Lord.

Just a few of my thoughts on the preposterousness of the notion being discussed.

As this is all about so called Calvinism, as I said, I don't really care much of what is called Calvinistic philosophy or Calvinism, and that what I do care of much is what God, in scriptures, says. And so again, away with so called Calvinistic philosophy and Calvinism, as we are not discussing any of that, and I am not going into that. Take your case against the so called Calvinistic philosophy and Calvinism to perhaps one who claims to be a disciple of Calvin, but not to me. I am a follower not of Calvin nor of anyone, but of Jesus Christ.

I leave you with this.

If I feel compelled to respond to what you are going to say in response to this post, then I will respond; but I really do prefer to end this conversation at this point for the reasons that I stated above.

Your call sir. I will respect whatever decision you so make.

Tong
R1137

 

[Tong2020]

It does indeed mean salvation; because Jesus said that whoever comes to Him, He will by no means cast out.

In other words, those who come to Jesus are accepted in the kingdom.

For one, "comes to Me" speaks of something done, a verb so to speak. So with that alone, it could not mean salvation which speaks not of something done, not a verb but a noun so to speak. Another is that, what you make out "comes to Me" by having it mean salvation, is actually what "comes to Me" results or leads to, that is, salvation of one who comes to Jesus, and really is not what "comes to Me" means.

Taking "comes to Me" in context, as it is in context synonymously means to believe in Jesus Christ. To put that in other words, is to have faith in Jesus Christ. That is why I also said, "come to Me" and "comes to Me" is connected and related to salvation, but it does not mean salvation.

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Let's see how that goes with the statement of Jesus in verse 37. It would go somewhat in this way, 'All that the Father gives Me will believe in Me, and the one who believes in Me I will by no means cast out.' Or in other words, 'All that the Father gives Me will have faith in Me, and the one who have faith in Me I will by no means cast out.' And that certainly is the same water of truth that flows in the rest of scriptures, especially in the NT scriptures.

Tong
R1138