John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"

[Tong2020]

"No one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him"

This does not say that when the Father draws a man to Jesus, he is guaranteed to come to Jesus. It only provides him the opportunity.

Have you considered that if the God does not draw every man to Jesus, He is arbitrarily choosing to place certain people in hell?

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...."

Jesus said they WILL COME, and not that they MIGHT COME. See the certainty?

Why do you have the problem believing scriptures that not all men are given by the Father to the Son, or that not all men are drawn by the Father to the Son, when it is clear that not all men come to Jesus? I suggest you read again those passages in John 6, and carefully study them, focusing on the matter of the Father's giving and drawing and what happens to men given and drawn by the Father to the Son, and what it means to "come" to Jesus.

Tong
R1120

 

[justbyfaith]

All men are drawn to Jesus; not all men are given to Jesus: they are two different things.

 

[Tong2020]

All men are drawn to Jesus; not all men are given to Jesus: they are two different things.

As I pointed out, the drawing spoken of in John 12:32, which you misused, is not quickening (in the spirit), nor does the drawing there means the giving of all men to Jesus. For not all men are given by the Father to Jesus. And for all those given by the Father to Jesus will come to Jesus and are they who will be saved. I hope that is clear now.

Have you read and studied the passages in John 6?

What do you say now of what Jesus said in John 6 where He said "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...."?

And what do you say now of what Jesus said concerning the matter of the Father's giving and drawing men to Him, and what happens to men given and drawn by the Father to the Son, and what it means to "come" to Jesus?

Tong
R1121

 

[Candidus]

I can only say that I disagree with you. There are verses that teach that we become recipients of grace through praying the sinner's prayer (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Colossians 1:27), through baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12, Romans 6:1-4, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Ezekiel 36:25-27, etc.), and/or through calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:8-13).

Tossing the elephant with out of context passages and poor exegesis.
(John 1:12,) yet you ignore the context. Verse 13 says, "who were born not of the blood, or the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." You cannot birth yourself. You cannot "will" your way into the New-Birth. Grace for you to be able to receive or reject grace requires that that grace has already been given to receive it. "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."
(Revelation 3:20,) is speaking to a Church, a Body of Believers. (Colossians 1:27), God's will to spread the Gospel to the Gentile is no argument that you can will your way into the Kingdom. "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."

Through baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39,) the Greek is emphatic and clear... one is saved before they are baptized. 1 (Peter 3:20-21, as it has been explained over and over, it presents baptism as a FIGURE, a metaphor, and admits that it cannot cleanse the filth of the flesh. It even tells us precisely what it is for! "a good conscience," not salvation. (Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12,) No baptism. (Romans 6:1-4,) No water, it tells us what we are baptized into. Don't defy Scripture and insert water where there is none! (Colossians 2:12,) spiritual baptism, not one drop of water in that passage. (Galatians 3:27,) Baptized "into Christ," not baptized "into water." (Ezekiel 36:25-27, etc.), the symbolism and the substance. Were you baptized by sprinkling? If not, you were not really baptized, were you! Ceremonial cleaning is the symbol, the substance is the work of God. In the Bible we see that sometimes one is cleansed before they are cured, sometimes immediately as they are ceremonially cleansed, and sometimes after a cleaning has already occurred. There is no magic in the water or the ceremony, but the act of faith in submission to God who heals and cleanses. Don't be like the sick man who sat by the pool or water, waiting for someone to place him in it when the water stirred (Jn. 5). His faith in water failed him. When Jesus came to him (the invalid did not come to Jesus), he was healed. Magic water no more saves you than it cleansed and healed the invalid.

Through calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:8-13). Without water or water baptism! Not out of man's "will" but from God's preceding work of grace so that they can feel convicted, and can respond. "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."

The elephant is tossed back to you. Unless you can Biblically and thoroughly disprove all the facts I pointed out, then you only have a weak and unsubstantiated argument to disbelieve the Scriptures! That's how tossing the elephant works!

 

[justbyfaith]

As I pointed out, the drawing spoken of in John 12:32, which you misused, is not quickening (in the spirit), nor does the drawing there means the giving of all men to Jesus. For not all men are given by the Father to Jesus. And for all those given by the Father to Jesus will come to Jesus and are they who will be saved. I hope that is clear now.

Have you read and studied the passages in John 6?

What do you say now of what Jesus said in John 6 where He said "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...."?

And what do you say now of what Jesus said concerning the matter of the Father's giving and drawing men to Him, and what happens to men given and drawn by the Father to the Son, and what it means to "come" to Jesus?

Tong
R1121

Yes, I consider that a man who is given to Jesus is guaranteed to enter the fold; while someone who is merely drawn by the Father to Jesus may or may not come into the fold.

All are drawn to Jesus; while not all are given to Jesus.

(John 1:12,) yet you ignore the context. Verse 13 says, "who were born not of the blood, or the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." You cannot birth yourself. You cannot "will" your way into the New-Birth. Grace for you to be able to receive or reject grace requires that that grace has already been given to receive it. "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."

Nevertheless if you look at one verse before verse 13, verse 12, the right to become a child of God is given to as many s receive Christ. So, evidently, a man can receive Christ apart from his own will, is what you are saying? That we do not receive Christ by making a decision for Christ?

(Revelation 3:20,) is speaking to a Church, a Body of Believers. (Colossians 1:27), God's will to spread the Gospel to the Gentile is no argument that you can will your way into the Kingdom.

That the will of man is involved in salvation is evident in such verses as Joshua 24:15 and Revelation 22:17.

Through baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39,) the Greek is emphatic and clear... one is saved before they are baptized. 1 (Peter 3:20-21, as it has been explained over and over, it presents baptism as a FIGURE, a metaphor, and admits that it cannot cleanse the filth of the flesh.

While it does not remove the filth of the flesh it does wash away sins (Acts of the Apostles 22:16).

It even tells us precisely what it is for! "a good conscience," not salvation. (Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12,)

No; it does not say that baptism produces a good conscience, it says that baptism is the answer of a good conscience. That is, because the person has repented, they now have a good conscience; and they are baptized out of that good conscience.

No baptism. (Romans 6:1-4,) No water, it tells us what we are baptized into. Don't defy Scripture and insert water where there is none!

Don't defy scripture and remove water where it is obviously located. Baptism, in scripture; what is the first mention of it? is it not where John the Baptist baptized people in the wilderness? it may even be that water was not mentioned in those verses; however John was obviously baptizing in water because he was baptizing them in the river. Baptism in holy scripture normally refers to water baptism.

(Colossians 2:12,) spiritual baptism, not one drop of water in that passage.

See above.

(Galatians 3:27,) Baptized "into Christ," not baptized "into water."

See above.

(Ezekiel 36:25-27, etc.), the symbolism and the substance. Were you baptized by sprinkling? If not, you were not really baptized, were you! Ceremonial cleaning is the symbol, the substance is the work of God.

Sprinkling is the minimum required. If I was immersed, that is more than sprinkling. And you have also not defeated the understanding that when the water is applied, a heart change is enacted, i.e. the person is born again.

There is no magic in the water or the ceremony, but the act of faith in submission to God who heals and cleanses.

I agree. In Colossians 2:12 (kjv), it is through faith of the operation of God that salvation occurs. Through identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; which is a confession of Christ before men (see Matthew 10:32).

Through calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:8-13). Without water or water baptism!

My postition is not that a man cannot be saved without water baptism but that water baptism in Jesus' Name has the power to save and confer the Holy Ghost.

Not out of man's "will" but from God's preceding work of grace so that they can feel convicted, and can respond. "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."

They must respond in order to be saved; and that is a choice that is made by the individual (see Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17).

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
As I pointed out, the drawing spoken of in John 12:32, which you misused, is not quickening (in the spirit), nor does the drawing there means the giving of all men to Jesus. For not all men are given by the Father to Jesus. And for all those given by the Father to Jesus will come to Jesus and are they who will be saved. I hope that is clear now.

Have you read and studied the passages in John 6?

What do you say now of what Jesus said in John 6 where He said "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...."?

And what do you say now of what Jesus said concerning the matter of the Father's giving and drawing men to Him, and what happens to men given and drawn by the Father to the Son, and what it means to "come" to Jesus?

Yes, I consider that a man who is given to Jesus is guaranteed to enter the fold; while someone who is merely drawn by the Father to Jesus may or may not come into the fold.

All are drawn to Jesus; while not all are given to Jesus.

It's good that now you acknowledge that those given to the Son by the Father will come to Jesus and be saved.

But you said "All are drawn to Jesus; while not all are given to Jesus.". Consider then the following:

1. Tell us, who are they who are given to the Son?
2. Tell us, who are they, while were drawn by the Father to the Son, are not given to the Son?
3. Tell us, what is the point of drawing these many people spoken in Q#2 above by the Father to the Son, when they are not in fact given by the Father to the Son?
4. Tell us, what does "come to Me" means in the following verses?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Tong
R1122

 

[Tong2020]

You cannot birth yourself. You cannot "will" your way into the New-Birth.

Glad to know you now get to see and believe this.

Thanks and glory be to God!

Tong
R1123

 

[Candidus]

My postition is not that a man cannot be saved without water baptism but that water baptism in Jesus' Name has the power to save and confer the Holy Ghost.

The Scriptural position is that Magic Water does not confer anything, but is a testimony of what has already happened in the Spirit.

 

[BarneyFife]

He says you have as much to do with your spiritual birth as you do with your physical birth - nothing. He says you cannot cause yourself to be "born again". He says that neither Jesus nor Paul nor the disciples commanded anyone to do anything in order to be "born again".

Is MacArthur correct?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

 

[justbyfaith]

But you said "All are drawn to Jesus; while not all are given to Jesus.". Consider then the following:

1. Tell us, who are they who are given to the Son?

Those whom God knows will receive the Son.

2. Tell us, who are they, while were drawn by the Father to the Son, are not given to the Son?

Those who, being drawn, do not receive the Son; but who rather reject Him.

3. Tell us, what is the point of drawing these many people spoken in Q#2 above by the Father to the Son, when they are not in fact given by the Father to the Son?

In order that they might have a fair opportunity towards being saved. If God does not give them the opportunity, then He arbitrarily chose them out for hell...and that is not a God of love.

4. Tell us, what does "come to Me" means in the following verses?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

In John 6:37, it is clear that those who are given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him...it is guaranteed.

In John 6:44, a person cannot come to Jesus unless the father draws him...so a person is enabled to come to Him thriough that work of being drawn. However, it is not here guaranteed that he will come to Him...it is only certain that he cannot come to Him apart from being drawn...so being drawn means that he can come to Him...not necessarily that he will.

In John 6:65, same as John 6:44. A person can come to Jesus if it has been granted to him by the Father....but it does not guarantee that they will come to Him.

The Scriptural position is that Magic Water does not confer anything, but is a testimony of what has already happened in the Spirit.

The scriptural position is that if you "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," "you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39). It is a conditional promise obtained through repentance and baptism in Jesus Name...the promise being the gift of the Holy Ghost...the condition being repentance and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins.

Of course, a person can receive the Holy Ghost merely by asking (Luke 11:9-13).

 

[Candidus]

The scriptural position is that if you "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," "you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39). It is a conditional promise obtained through repentance and baptism in Jesus Name...the promise being the gift of the Holy Ghost...the condition being repentance and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins.

Keep those blinkers on, you might actually see the truth of the Greek and see that this is not so.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am of the opinion that the English is sufficient.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, the Lord is not going to give us a compromised word of God in what we find in the English as it is presented to us.

This is why there is a controversy over kjv-only; and the controversy exists over no other version.

It is because God has chosen out the kjv to most closely represent in English His holy message.

Because the Lord is sovereign and Omnipotent and loving; and in these three things He is not going to allow His message to not be sent forth to those who would seek to know it as it exists in uncompromised form.

For I find that many modern English versions are watered down and the message is compromised in each of them to some degree.

But not so in the kjv...for I believe that it is in the sovereignty, Omnipotence, and love of the Lord to preserve His unadulterated message in a version that is contended for as containing His uncompromised word.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
But you said "All are drawn to Jesus; while not all are given to Jesus.". Consider then the following:
1. Tell us, who are they who are given to the Son?

Those whom God knows will receive the Son.

Needless to say, those chosen by the Father to give to the Son. They are those who in time came to Jesus and are saved, and those who in time will come to Jesus and are saved.
____________________________
Tong2020 said: ↑
2. Tell us, who are they, while were drawn by the Father to the Son, are not given to the Son?

Those who, being drawn, do not receive the Son; but who rather reject Him.

Firstly, following your line of reasoning as with your answer in Q#1, they would be those whom God knows will not receive the Son, right? So, it begs the question in Q#3.

Secondly, I find no scriptures that speaks of people drawn by the Father (supposedly they whom He knew will not receive the Son) only to reject the Son. If you do, please cite them.

Thirdly, since these people are not given by the Father to the Son, then unlike those given, whose coming to Jesus is certain and their salvation certain, you are saying then that these people's salvation are uncertain. Such idea, I find nowhere in scriptures. If you do, please cite them.
__________________________
Tong2020 said: ↑
3. Tell us, what is the point of drawing these many people spoken in Q#2 above by the Father to the Son, when they are not in fact given by the Father to the Son?

In order that they might have a fair opportunity towards being saved. If God does not give them the opportunity, then He arbitrarily chose them out for hell...and that is not a God of love.

It seems you see what is fair according to your own understanding and standard. What is fair to you? You have people certain of being saved, those who are given by the Father to the Son, and you have people whose salvation is uncertain, those people other than those given by the Father to the Son.

Talking about fair opportunity, would you say that all not being born in the same and equal situation (way, time, place, environment, etc..) in this world, fair opportunity?

__________________________
Tong2020 said: ↑
4. Tell us, what does "come to Me" means in the following verses?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

In John 6:37, it is clear that those who are given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him...it is guaranteed.

In John 6:44, a person cannot come to Jesus unless the father draws him...so a person is enabled to come to Him thriough that work of being drawn. However, it is not here guaranteed that he will come to Him...it is only certain that he cannot come to Him apart from being drawn...so being drawn means that he can come to Him...not necessarily that he will.

In John 6:65, same as John 6:44. A person can come to Jesus if it has been granted to him by the Father....but it does not guarantee that they will come to Him.

You really did not answer the question, that is, what does "come to Me" means in the following verses? What you did is a commentary. So again, please answer the question, what does "come to Me" means in the following verses?

Now, let me say a few things about your commentary.

Regarding John 6:44, clearly, as it is clear to you as well, that a person cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. There is nothing in there that say what you say, that it is not guaranteed that him the Father had drawn to the Son will come to Jesus. That is reading into the verse, and is your own conclusion based on your own reasoning. Now, if there is some other passage that says something to that effect, please cite them. The context also does not support such conclusion. This is why I asked the question to you, what does "come to Me" means?

Regarding John 6:65, it is not the same as in v.44 as you say. In verse 44, Jesus said one cannot come to Him unless the Father had drawn him, while in v. 65, Jesus said one cannot come to Him unless the Father granted him. Drawn is not the same as granted. But "granted" in v.65 is the same as "given" in v.37. Both comes from the same Greek word "didomi". So again, care must be taken to not misuse and misunderstand scriptures.

Tong
R1124

 

[justbyfaith]

Secondly, I find no scriptures that speaks of people drawn by the Father (supposedly they whom He knew will not receive the Son) only to reject the Son. If you do, please cite them.

Thirdly, since these people are not given by the Father to the Son, then unlike those given, whose coming to Jesus is certain and their salvation certain, you are saying then that these people's salvation are uncertain. Such idea, I find nowhere in scriptures. If you do, please cite them.

I suggest that you cite the scriptures that support your pov that being drawn to the Son guarantees that they are also given to the Son.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is inherent in the verses themselves. No one can come to Jesus except the heavenly Father draws them. And no one can come to Jesus unless it is granted to them of the Father.

Whereas, those who are given to Jesus shall come to the Father.

All you have to do is take the verses literally, and you will come to my conclusion.

But if you are blinded by a preconceived notion, it may not be an easy thing for you to see it.

That cannot be helped; but I will pray that the Lord removes the blinders from off of your eyes.

 

[Candidus]

Also, the Lord is not going to give us a compromised word of God in what we find in the English as it is presented to us.

Precisely why it is the favorite version of the cults; you can justify all kinds of heresy with it.

 

[Tong2020]

I suggest that you cite the scriptures that support your pov that being drawn to the Son guarantees that they are also given to the Son.

It is not my point of view that being drawn to Jesus guarantees that they are also given to the Son, that is, relative to your reference verse of John 12:32. The drawing in John 12:32 is not the same as the drawing with reference to John 6:44. My point of view is exactly what Jesus said in John 6, that it is the Father that gives to Him people who can and will come to the Son. And these people, He will surely save and raise to life. And that not all people are given for that matter. That means that not all people will be saved. Also, coming to Jesus is not possible for one, unless such a one is drawn by the Father to Jesus, and unless such a one is given to Jesus. Clearly, John 6 teaches that one's coming to the Son, Jesus Christ, does not happen by one's own will and power, but by God's, and that, salvation is sure to them whom God had so given to the Son. You should read again John 6.

Not to have you divert the point, the issue is with your out of context statement and own conclusion, regarding the drawing of people by the Father, with reference to John 6, where the drawing there by the Father, you seem to confuse it with the drawing spoken of in John 12:32. That is why, I thought perhaps you have other reference scriptures which supports what you say there which I would like to consider. Apparently you don't have scriptures to show that supports your conclusion there. Well,..... that settles it perhaps.

Coming from your posts, this is what you teach, that all are drawn to Jesus. That some of those drawn, are given by the Father to Jesus and whose salvation is sure, and that the rest are not given, whose salvation isn't sure. So, you effectively teach that those who are not given to the Son may or may not be saved, while those given will surely be saved. That by itself, to me, presents a confusion and contradiction. But it is not because of that that I don't agree with you, but that, I could not find scriptures that teach anything to that effect. So, I ask of you, if you have reference scriptures in that regard, to cite them, that I may consider them.

And I noticed, you have not really told me what "comes to Me" means to you, in John 6:37,44, and 65. I am thinking that this is very significant in our discussion here. So, please go ahead and tell us.

Tong
R1125

 

[justbyfaith]

So, you effectively teach that those who are not given to the Son may or may not be saved, while those given will surely be saved.

Those who are drawn to the Son may or may not be saved. Those who are not given to the Son will not be saved; those who are given to the Son will be saved.

So, I ask of you, if you have reference scriptures in that regard, to cite them, that I may consider them.

The doctrine is inherent in the scriptures in question. I also am asking you to substantiate your pov with scripture, that a man who is drawn to the Son, it is guaranteed that he is also given to Him.

And I noticed, you have not really told me what "comes to Me" means to you, in John 6:37,44, and 65. I am thinking that this is very significant in our discussion here. So, please go ahead and tell us.

It means what it says....salvation. Whoever comes to the Lord, He will in no wise cast out.

And this brings up a point.

In your pov, I assume that you believe that a man who is not of the elect cannot come to Jesus; or that if he were to come to Jesus he would not be accepted by Him.

It begs the question of the person who desires to come to Jesus but wonders, "What if I am not of the elect? If I am not of the elect then I cannot come to Jesus or else He will not receive me if I come to Him."

Is this not contradictory to John 6:37?

 

[justbyfaith]

Precisely why it is the favorite version of the cults; you can justify all kinds of heresy with it.

The same heresies can also be refuted by the kjv.