Great question!
The only accepted answer is solely the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross and the grace of God.
If you add baptism, church membership, being good, or saying you rescued puppies or ate a Kosher diet, you will be rejected.
John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"
- Thread starter K9Buck
- Start date
-
- Tags
- born again
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The only accepted answer is solely the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross and the grace of God.
If you add baptism, church membership, being good, or saying you rescued puppies or ate a Kosher diet, you will be rejected.
Yes, it does not put away the filth of the flesh; but it does wash away sins (Acts of the Apostles 22:16). So in order to interpret these scriptures rightly, you would have to understand the difference between the two.
Now, baptism is indeed a figure; but that does not change the fact that it doth also now save us according to that scripture (1 Peter 3:20-21 (kjv)).
It saves us in that it is a confession of Jesus Christ (see Matthew 10:32) to the uttermost; in which one identifies with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection.
However, do you not become a recipient of the grace of God through praying the sinner's prayer, and/or baptism in Jesus' Name, and/or calling on the name of the Lord?
No. God offers grace in His time. Our response is either to reject it or to receive it in faith with an empty hand.
Have it your way.
I would only suggest to you that if you don't receive baptism in Jesus' Name, either for or because of the remission of your sins, that at the very least you ought to call on the name of the Lord for salvation, and/or get the first thing done.
And I will say this: those who receive baptism in Jesus' Name are, absolutely saved; and do not need to fear condemnation; because the Holy Ghost has been absolutely promised to them, along with the remission of sins.
As to being baptized because of the remission of sins, rather than for them, I consider that scripture interprets scripture.
Act 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
And I'm certain that you will also come up with an argument as to why this scripture does not mean what it says.
However, it is written (in the NIV),
2Co 10:4, The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
2Co 10:5, We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Among the weapons that I fight with are the heavy artillery of the full armor of God; which is prayer (Ephesians 6:18).
So I would say that your arguments / imaginations, do not stand a chance against the weapons of warfare that I fight with.
Last edited:
I can only say that I disagree with you. There are verses that teach that we become recipients of grace through praying the sinner's prayer (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Colossians 1:27), through baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12, Romans 6:1-4, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Ezekiel 36:25-27, etc.), and/or through calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:8-13).
Such belief leaves no man to be not quickened, making all men, from being dead in the spirit, to being quickened in the spirit, and are made able to spiritually discern truth that comes from God. That essentially makes all men being born again, as you have made all men to have been quickened in the spirit or made alive in the spirit. But such is contrary to the truth, for even after Jesus was lifted up from the earth, scriptures speaks this out: But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So, as I said, it seems that you are misusing John 12:32. I asked you to consider what the context verse 33 have to say in relation to this statement. Let me quote that here:
John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
Clearly, the context verse 33 spells out to the Christian, what verse 32 is about, that is, Jesus' death by crucifixion. So that, the phrase "will draw all peoples to Myself" should be taken in that context. So now consider asking yourself: in context, does the drawing spoken there means quickening (making alive)? The answer is obviously a no.
Tong
R1117
The quickening spoken of is not to the effect of making the person completely born again; rather it works to draw the person to Jesus so that they can make a decision for Him that is unhindered by the fact that the person was formerly dead in trespasses and sins.
They are half-way woken up, as from sleep; so that they can make a decision as to whether to wake up fully or else go back to sleep.
They are half-way woken up, as from sleep; so that they can make a decision as to whether to wake up fully or else go back to sleep.
Looks like you have really gone off the rails. The above is more nonsense from you.
I can only say that I cannot agree with the scheme of earning grace or influencing God to give grace by our actions. God is not in heaven wringing His hands in despair over our judgement of Him or our "decision" to activate grace.
Hey, I love you too.
Question: if we do not receive salvation as a choice of the free will, then how is it obtained? Do you believe that God arbitrarily decides who is going to go to heaven and who is going to go to hell?
Also, are you not aware that the Lord promises salvation to those who take a step of faith in calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13)? Is this not a choice that we make as to whether we will do this or won't do this?
I think that you need to consider that Joshua 24:15 and Revelation 22:17 are verses in the Bible.
I do not see what you are saying as being the Scriptural use of grace. It actually sounds more like human effort, and salvation is tantamount to a better education, pulling oneself up by their own bootstraps and "deciding" to be saved. Turning over a new leaf may sound good, it may make you a better person, yet it will never save you.
We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).
Also see post #270 (John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again")
It's not "obtained" in the sense of the will activating it. God precedes with grace, free-will can reject that grace. Simply not rejecting a free gift indicates no merit or accomplishment that activates any such grace. Evidence of grace is a changed life; it is the work of Christ in and through us.
Just what I have been briefly teaching you concerning this.
We don't enter in by "not rejecting" the gift. We enter in by receiving it. It is in the active, not the passive, tense.
We have access by faith.... into this grace wherein we stand. If one is already standing in that grace, it precedes faith that acts that grace. A person who is already justified has access to God's grace. Growth however, is never "into" grace, but "in" a grace already possessed. Faith is the condition where we have access into this grace.
What is faith? Trusting completely that there is nothing of ourselves that could possibly reconcile us to God, that our entire trust and hope for out salvation is in the Person and work of Jesus Christ on the cross on our behalf. No faith=rejecting the offer of grace. Faith= trusting that you could do nothing to get the free gift, but trusting that it is yours.
If you have to earn it, it is no longer grace. If you are speaking of Acts 2:38 and receiving, it is not in the present tense but the future tense. "Receiving" a gift is not rejecting that gift.
The quickening is the making alive of what is rendered dead, such as is the state of the natural sinful man. So that when the natural sinful man (alive in the flesh) is quickened (in the spirit), he is made alive in the spirit, then able to see, hear, understand, that is, able to spiritually discern spiritual truths.
As I have shown in my other post, in connection to the scripture you quoted in reference to drawing people to the Son, the drawing there isn't such quickening in the spirit, and so is a clear misuse of the said scriptures. The Father draws people, quickening their spirit, enabling them to spiritually discern. Jesus, in scriptures (John 6) said these, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.......No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him....". Are all men drawn (by the Father) to the Son? The obvious answer is no. For if that were so, then all men will come to the Son. Now, a person, when drawn (by the Father) to the Son, comes to Jesus Christ, and this is what Jesus said in this regard, "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out". Jesus said in connection to this, that all that the Father has given Him, He should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. So, if what you say is the truth, that all men were drawn to the Son, then all men will come to Jesus in accordance to what Jesus said, and so then not one person will be lost. Such is clearly contrary to the truth that not all men are saved.
You said "They are half-way woken up, as from sleep". Where is that idea coming from? You see, it's either one is quickened, that is, made alive, or he is not, that is, remains dead. Come to think of it, does a half-woke person see correctly, hear correctly, understand correctly? Try preaching to one who is half-woke so you'll know.
Tong
R1118
"Receiving" is active, "not rejecting" is passive. One does not enter into grace passively, there is an active element to it.
In Romans 3:23, all have sinned and "come short" of the glory of God. That is in the present passive indicative. If you are sitting there passively, then you come short of the glory of God. But if you actively seek the Lord, then you do not have to come short of the glory of God...as Hebrews 10:14 might bear out to you.
The Father might draw a man to Jesus without giving the same man to Jesus. If the man, being drawn to Christ, rejects Him, then he will not be saved.
The fact that the Father draws a man does not guarantee salvation....while the Father giving a man to Jesus does.
The holy scriptures clearly teach that because Jesus was lifted up from the earth, He will draw all men to Himself.
See above.
The Father gives a man to Jesus when the man receives Him and gains access into the grace wherein he will stand, by faith.
Last edited:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Jesus, in scriptures (John 6) said these, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.......No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him....". Are all men drawn (by the Father) to the Son? The obvious answer is no. For if that were so, then all men will come to the Son.
You said, "The Father might draw a man to Jesus without giving the same man to Jesus." Apparently, that is what you say, not what scriptures say. If you insist that is what scriptures say, please cite scriptures.
You said, "If the man, being drawn to Christ, rejects Him, then he will not be saved." Again, that is what you say, not what scriptures say. If you insist that is what scriptures say, please cite scriptures.
______________________
Tong2020 said: ↑
Jesus said in connection to this, that all that the Father has given Him, He should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. So, if what you say is the truth, that all men were drawn to the Son, then all men will come to Jesus in accordance to what Jesus said, and so then not one person will be lost. Such is clearly contrary to the truth that not all men are saved.
Well,....
Tong
R1119
Jesus, in scriptures (John 6) said these, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.......No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him....". Are all men drawn (by the Father) to the Son? The obvious answer is no. For if that were so, then all men will come to the Son.
Did you not just read what scriptures (John 6) say concerning those drawn by the Father to the Son? Consider reading again. The Father gives to the Son, certain people. The people whom the Father gives to the Son, Jesus said, will come to Him. That is WILL COME, and not MIGHT COME. See the certainty? And regarding the "coming" of people to Jesus, He said, "No one can come to Him unless the Father draws him". There is the matter of drawing. The drawing, if you will perhaps now realize, results to their coming to Jesus Christ. Now, what did Jesus Himself said concerning those who comes to Him? He said, "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out". If what Jesus said there is not clear as day to you, I don't know why.
You said, "The Father might draw a man to Jesus without giving the same man to Jesus." Apparently, that is what you say, not what scriptures say. If you insist that is what scriptures say, please cite scriptures.
You said, "If the man, being drawn to Christ, rejects Him, then he will not be saved." Again, that is what you say, not what scriptures say. If you insist that is what scriptures say, please cite scriptures.
______________________
Tong2020 said: ↑
Jesus said in connection to this, that all that the Father has given Him, He should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. So, if what you say is the truth, that all men were drawn to the Son, then all men will come to Jesus in accordance to what Jesus said, and so then not one person will be lost. Such is clearly contrary to the truth that not all men are saved.
Do you hear what you say, and I quote "The Father gives a man to Jesus...". And that is you say, WHEN the man receives Jesus. That in itself is erroneous. That is what happens when one tries to explain away the truth in scriptures, in an attempt to make what he believes to stand. First, the misuse of John 12:32, then these posts.
Well,....
Tong
R1119
"No one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him"
This does not say that when the Father draws a man to Jesus, he is guaranteed to come to Jesus. It only provides him the opportunity.
Have you considered that if the God does not draw every man to Jesus, He is arbitrarily choosing to place certain people in hell?
This does not say that when the Father draws a man to Jesus, he is guaranteed to come to Jesus. It only provides him the opportunity.
Have you considered that if the God does not draw every man to Jesus, He is arbitrarily choosing to place certain people in hell?
Similar threads
