1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Phoneman777, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Amid ceremonies last year marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, one of Protestantism’s leading branches has officially said it now agrees with the Vatican on the main issue at the root of its split from the Roman Catholic Church half a millennium ago. Thus, the signing of the "Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Faith" by Catholics and Protestants:

    Together we confess: "BY GRACE ALONE, IN CHRIST'S SAVING WORK and not because of any merit on our part,” its key passage said, “we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works."

    The Protestant world rejoiced. But, ignorance and the desire to set aside doctrine is the reason why so many Protestants are blind to the fact that if there ever was an example of diabolical deception from the pits of hell, it is the above JDDJ statement.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I. "BY GRACE ALONE" IS NOT THE SAME AS "BY FAITH ALONE"

    IF YOU'RE A PROTESTANT...
    ...what is "grace" and from where is it obtained? Grace is God's forgiveness for our sin and empowerment to live the Christian life, which is made possible ALONE by the atoning death of Jesus on the Cross. It's obtained ALONE through the sinner's exercise of Jesus' faith (Revelation 14:12), of which God has dealt to every man a measure (Romans 12:3). The Protestant looks to God to supply everything:

    "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (both grace and faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

    IF YOU'RE A CATHOLIC...
    ...what is "grace" and from where is it obtained? Grace is deliverance from Purgatory made possible ALONE by the "merit" of the good works of Mary, Jesus, the saints, etc., and is obtained ALONE through the pope and the priesthood through the granting of an indulgence. Grace is obtained through the church ALONE by faith in the "works of Jesus". What "works"? Read on:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    II. "IN CHRIST'S SAVING WORK..." IS NOT THE SAME AS "IN CHRIST'S ATONING SACRIFICE"

    IF YOU'RE A PROTESTANT...
    ...Christ's atoning death and resurrection is ALONE the means by which God is able to pardon sinners, for His divine justice demands death to the sinner, and by the shedding of Christ's precious blood ALONE God can now be both Just for condemning the unjust and also the Justifier of them who by faith repent and claim His promise that He will make them just.

    IF YOU'RE A CATHOLIC...
    ...it is the life and the works of Christ prior to Calvary which ALONE is important, for two reasons:

    1) Christ's life of "good works" is what prompted God to arbitrarily grant the power to the catholic priesthood to forgive sins apart from the need for any atoning sacrifice and anyone seeking forgiveness need only go to the priesthood and confess their sin, and...

    2) Christ's life of "good works", along with those of Mary and the saints, provides a bottomless "bucket of merit" from which the grace for deliverance from Purgatory that the priesthood grants to the faithful stems.
    According to Catholicism, God has granted forgiveness for the sins of the faithful through the priesthood, but the faithful are still required to pay for those sins - in Purgatory - because Catholicism teaches Christ never paid the penalty for the sins of the faithful and that His death was an act of love, not payment.


    "With regard to the mystic body of Christ, that is, all the faithful, the priest has the power of the keys, or the power of delivering sinners from Hell, of making them worthy of Paradise, and of changing them from the slaves of Satan into the children of God. And God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priests, and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse or give absolution...The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it." - St. Peter Damian.

    From the online Catholic Courier:
    "One theory, sometimes referred to as "substitution," "satisfaction" or "ransom" theology, was championed by St. Anselm in the 11th century. He believed that Christ's sacrificial death was necessary in order to liberate humanity from sin and restore communion with the Father, that the blood of Jesus was "payment" to God for human sin. (The manner of Christ's death reflected Old Testament sacrifices, where a lamb was burnt in offering and then later consumed by the worshippers.)

    (By this, St. Anselm was a true Protestant in the making!)

    "Anselm's theology prevailed, even though it was challenged by scholars such as Peter Abelard, a contemporary of Anselm, who insisted that Christ's death on the cross had been an act of love, not payment. Even St. Augustine, 700 years before, had reservations and asked in his De Trinitate: "Is it necessary to think that being God, the Father was angry with us, saw his son die for us and thus abated his anger against us?

    (Can an institution which has historically denied the most central doctrine of our Creator - "without the shedding of blood there is no remission" - really trace its roots all the way back to the time when our Creator was made flesh?)

    "A fair number of modern-day scholars, too, find the satisfaction theology (that Jesus had to shed His blood to atone for our sins) bothersome because of the way it images God. What kind of loving God, they argue, would demand such horrific suffering from his own Son in order to secure divine justice?

    (To exoterics, the objection is for how "Blood Atonement" makes God appear to them as unloving, but to esoteric papists, it has to do with robbing Lucifer of the opportunity to worshiped as god, which these Luciferian Antichrists cannot abide. Should Protestants be part of any joint declaration with an institution which to this day yet denies the centrality and integrality of Jesus' blood atonement for sin?)

    "What seems to me a reasonable explanation is this: God decided to send Jesus to live among us, to be fully human so that he could teach us and show us the ways of the Lord. Once he became human, death was inevitable; and because his teaching challenged both the religious and secular authorities of his day, a violent death was likely."
    How can Protestantism endeavor to participate in anything "joint" with Catholicism when Catholicism has never changed its historic position on this and other things like infant baptism, the Immaculate Conception, Christ alone as Mediator, etc.? How can the Protestant world rejoice today, as if the monumental blasphemies of 500 years ago that divided us are now irrelevant? Only through monumental ignorance. Please get educated:

     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
    brakelite and Rollo Tamasi like this.
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    202
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Apostasy.
     
    Phoneman777 likes this.
  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,457
    Likes Received:
    770
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I see your complete obsession WITH and total ignorance OF the Catholic Church continues . . .
     
    Marymog and Reggie Belafonte like this.
  4. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Active Member

    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Faith alone is rubbish, blind faith has no foundations, little faith is ok but is lacking and can only be lukewarm at best.
    One Needs Grace or you have not Charity, so if one does not have such one can not have the Holy Spirit, as one knows not good works in Christ Jesus, so one without such as this does not have the true foundations of the Faith that can move mountains.
    One wonders why the Churches have failed and people have left in droves over the years and so many people have abandoned Jesus Christ.
    Fact is that it's because they have taken out Jesus Christ, sure they want the kingdom but they do not want God in it.
    The Protestants took Jesus Christ off the Cross, because they do not preach a crucified Christ, crucified by morons, I can see that is the case and one must understand this is a fact, all your works are as filthy rags and Jesus Christ must be seen for who he truly is, carnal man can not see it. so he starts this OT rubbish of the Blood sacrifice but is at a loss to the gift the Holy Sprit that came from such and makes a such a big deal about the blood, the blood sacrifice is over now and we have the Holy Spirit and Grace abounds in that, not the Blood atonement, that's finished with the coming of Jesus Christ, if one does not understand that one may have another Jesus.
     
  5. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Active Member

    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    And that's why they are ranting on about the 2ed coming so much and idolising the stupid Jews as Gods people, when the fact is they clearly are not today when in fact true Christians are Gods people.
    Such fools claim that Christianity is not Israel, no wonder they look away from Jesus Christ to the stupid Jews for their salvation, they have not got past the Blood atonement, so no wonder they are so lost and looking to the Jews. when in fact all they need is Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ has come and that's all we need, Jesus did and said everything he need do and he gave the Gift, one has only to pick it up and that's how the Kingdom of God comes, abiding in his Spirit alone, it always has and always will be this regardless of 2ed Coming what would one think it would be, something totally different ? if one thinks it would be different you are not a Christian and must have another Jesus.
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    202
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We joined Christ in his death and we can only resurrect because he is the first resurrected from the dead.

    Catholicism dwells on his death. They still put Christ on the cross.

    What is more important, the death of Christ or His resurrection?
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    202
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You call yourself a Christian? Your own words deny that.

    What denomination are you?
     
  8. Frank Lee

    Frank Lee Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes Received:
    2,186
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thank God Almighty for evermore that I was an ignorant person as to religious hokus pokus. Like brother Amos I was neither a prophet nor son of a prophet.

    The Chinese evangelist Watchman Nee though highly educated biblically often lamented that the ignorant villagers that were saved seemed to know the savior far better than he.

    The simplicity of Jesus the Christ is overran by doctrines, dogma, movements, sects, volumes of religious rhetoric ad nauseum.

    As Jesus told Martha only a few things are necessary.

    Put the books on the shelf, draw near to God and he'll draw near to you. Jesus loves each of us more than describable. People were and are drawn by his love.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
    Prayer Warrior likes this.
  9. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Active Member

    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I am not of any Denomination, I am Catholic, not Roman Catholic.
    All true Christians are Catholic, Protestants are Catholic as well but within all faiths it's only Jesus Christ that saves you, never the denomination.

    All Church denominations are just a business concern to be truthful and there works prove this, just look at the body of believers nowadays that have not flourished but have turned away and the fact is the churches do not preach Jesus Christ first and foremost, but sadly peddle rubbish and will not stand up to the Government powers that are working to erode Church and State, Christianity is on the way out of our Nations lives and crap like so called Jews are idolised as Gods, how pathetic, not to mention we are losing our freedoms and have been going down the path that leads to enslavement. and what does the Pope do not to mention all the Protestant Churches do a great fat nothing ! talk about gutless good for nothings, no wonder most have left going to Church, rather than to listen to Satanic crap like idolising bloody Sodomites, Jews and Political Correctness filth.

    I don't just call my self a Christian, I am Born Again in Christ Jesus.

    I would not point to a Church denomination as being truly of Christ Jesus nowadays, they are a disgrace. and if anyone who went to Church 40 years or more ago, was suddenly taken to nowadays 2018 they would be in total shock of it's decline.
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    202
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    These are the days of apostasy. Including you.

    Before you ask, I'm nondenominational literal bible only.
     
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,327
    Likes Received:
    1,654
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    It get's worse. A priest sacrifices Christ daily and claims that he is handling the actual body and blood of Christ.

    'That is the sense of a clause from the Council of Trent (Sess. XXII, can. 1): "If any one saith that in the Mass a true and proper sacrifice is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema" (Denzinger, "Enchir.", 10th ed. 1908, n. 948).'

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice of the Mass
     
    Phoneman777 likes this.
  12. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Active Member

    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I am not a literal Bible only as that's just foolish not to mention ignorance to believe everything in the Bible is literal.
    I do agree with may things that the RCC did say and many things that the Protestants say can be correct, I have my own opinions just like all people in every Church has always truly had, if you ever bothered to ask one.
    Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour and nothing other is, I have not abandon him at all.
    It's the Churches nowadays that have abandoned him.

    Cultural Marxism and it's Political Correctness Nazis have just been having a hand in taken over and it's works are manifest in undermining the Church and the State for years.
    This must be pointed out to inform the people of what is undermining our Nations.
     
  13. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Exactly. The Mass ensures that Christ STAYS up there on the Cross, as an esoteric sign of His DEFEAT by the prince of this world. They refuse to accept that He is risen, serves as our ONLY, SINGULAR "ONE Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5), and is soon to return in power, glory, and majesty amid a tumultuous, cataclysmic eruption of the elements of the Earth to take His saints with Him back to the kingdom.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  14. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dead Bread denies it - just as he denies all other blasphemous statements which emanate from the Vatican. He's the first papist I've encountered that has abandoned efforts to legitimize the ludicrous, redonkulous teachings of Catholicism and has resorted to outright denial of them, while claiming to "expose anti-catholic lies online for 15 years" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
    brakelite and Enoch111 like this.
  15. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dead Bread, "debunking anti-catholic lies online" by outright denial of verbatim quotations of your own church leaders spewing official catholic doctrine not only makes you appear inept, but foolish.
     
    brakelite likes this.
  16. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, but let's keep THE BOOK (and the Biblical doctrines contained therein) close to our hearts.
     
  17. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    2,255
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Be careful with statements like that. In 73 years on this Earth, I have yet to meet even one single person who is a true "Literalist" where the Bible is concerned..... though thousands proclaim such.
     
  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    2,811
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    I agree with all you've said...I just want to clarify that it IS faith that saves us...no amount of works can save us without faith...

    After we have faith, then faith is no longer enough and all you've said holds true.
    Once we believe, we are required to obey God or we have a dead faith.
     
    Heart2Soul and Reggie Belafonte like this.
  19. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    2,811
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    I doth protest E,
    I read the link quicky, but I have to say that it's referring to the Council of Trent.
    500 years ago.

    I asked two priests I know and they said the Mass does NOT sacrifice Jesus again.
    If THEY don't know, I can't say who would...

    The Mass is a remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus,,,as if we were standing at the foot of the cross --- more than just a memory.

    It's good to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Maybe we protestants have Him too much down to earth and thought of as a man? I'm not sure of this.

    Anyway, I do believe you present an incorrect picture of the Mass.
    We've been through this before so I suppose you don't accept what I'm telling you.

    You should try asking a priest sometime if he's re-sacrificing Jesus at each Mass.
     
  20. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Luther was obsessed with exposing the lies of Catholicism and anyone today who enjoys the privilege of firmly taking hold of the Word of God with two hands and feasting on the truth contained within its pages ultimately has that intrepid former catholic monk and his desire to find the truth to thank.
     
Loading...