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Featured Judaism or Christianity?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Netchaplain, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    Note to reader: It’s the hopes of this poster that viewers understand and apply the truths of Israel’s eschatology to their faith; and it is also acknowledged concerning the suspicion that most will find this doctrine unfamiliar, and so, initially difficult to understand or lacking interest. God bless us to know and receive all the truths of His Word!



    It’s becoming more obvious all the time that Christendom in general has yet to understand God’s permanent union with His people Israel. No doubt there will be confusion when thinking that believers of God among the Israelites are “cast away” when Scripture states otherwise. Some may, and understandably so due to its reading, direct attention to Romans 11:15 and see a contradiction to verse 2, but as it is often used, this is merely a hyperbolic expression giving the sense that “what if they were cast away,” or “even if they were cast away.” The reply in verse 15 is that the “receiving of them” would be “but life from the dead”; but verse 26 is the strongest proponent of this doctrine, unless one is bereft of conceiving the errant teaching (which some have) that all Christians now represent Israel. The most important instruction here concerns the truth that in the time of God’s rejection concerning fellowship with Israel, there is a copious presence of Scripture attesting to His promise that He “will not forsake His people” (1Sa 12:22).

    “Judaism is considered by religious Jews to be the expression of the covenant that God established with the Children of Israel” (Wikipedia).
    NC






    Judaism or Christianity?


    The Lord Jesus Christ is the center of the counsels of God, and hence of prophecy, which treats of the earth and His government of it for His own glory. Such is the importance of Israel, from whom, as according to the flesh, came Christ who is over all, God blessed forever! They are His people by a choice and calling which cannot fail in the end, though there may be and has been a fall and a long continued disowning of them in God’s righteous judgment of their apostasy (which I think is not an apostasy of Israel because they never have accepted the truths concerning Christ to depart from it—NC). But mercy will restore them ere long, humbly, joyfully, welcoming the Messiah they have long rejected.

    This has been feebly seen, nay, generally denied, throughout Christendom for ages. Scarcely any error is more patent throughout the Fathers (so called—NC) than the substitution of the Church for Israel in all their system of thought. Every Father, whose writings have come down to us, is a witness of the same allegorizing interpretations, not only the Alexandrian school of Clement and Origen, but Justin Martyr, Iranaeus and Pseudo-Barnabas. The Latins followed in the same wake, not Augustine and Ruffinus and Jerome only, but Tertullian, Cyprian and Lactantius.

    Not one held the restoration of Israel to their land, converted nationally (Isa 45:17; Rom 11:26—NC); the millenarian portion expected that the risen saints would reign with Christ in Jerusalem rebuilt, adorned and enlarged, not that the Jews should be restored and blessed in the land. The medieval writers naturally adopted the same view. So did the Reformers without exception, as far as I am aware. All fell into the error of putting the Church into the place of Israel, and so of leaving no room for His earthly people, besides His heavenly saints and glorified Bride.

    They neglected the warning of the Apostle Paul, and assumed that the Jewish branches were broken off that the Gentiles might be grafted in, and forever (not into the earthly place but the “heavenly places - Eph 2:6”—NC). They did not take heed to the prophetic word, as Peter exhorts (2Pe 1:19), but applied systematically the predictions of Israel’s blessings in the last days to the Christian Church. Still less did they appreciate the day dawning or the day star rising in their heart. Catholics, Protestants, had no real light, no spiritual intelligence, as to the hopes of Israel (Act 28:20 – God’s eternal earthly representatives—NC) as distinct from those of Christians (heavenly representatives—NC).

    Is it not as solemn as it is startling to see thus beyond just question the immediate, universal and lasting departure of the Christian profession from prophetic truth? The divine glory in Christ for all things in heaven and on earth being the blessed and revealed purpose of God (Eph 1:10); and when this is forgotten, false hopes spring up. Man, self, becomes the end, instead of the Lord Jesus; the true light is lost, and darkness ensues in the just retribution of God. The effort to make the Church all, instead of preserving the true dignity of the Church as the heavenly spouse of the Lord Jesus, lowers her to the position of earthly Israel, a people reigned over, not reigning with Him, His inheritance, not heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (it’s been said that Israel has a priesthood, but Christians are a priesthood - 1Pe 2:5, 9; Rev 1:6; 5:10).

    The future acts of God as revealed in the prophetic Word are the expressions of the principles on which He will govern the world; and so His Word is the means by which alone we learn these principles fully. If we fail to ascertain them thus, we form our own thoughts of that which God gave us, prophecy whereby we know His mind. Our business is to gather of what and whom God speaks; and no greater delusion can befall us than to imagine that, because all Scripture is for our profit all must be about ourselves.

    The purpose of God as to the Jews is in its place as truly the object of faith as His counsels concerning the Church (God knowing Israel’s future unbelief concerning Christ ordained them to be under heaven, and the believer’s place in Christ with Him in heaven—NC). Thus, the apprehension of His various ways for glorifying His Son is essential to real understanding of His Word. Here, as everywhere, a single eye is essential. With the Lord Jesus before us, the whole body will not fail to be full of light (Mat 6:22).

    Is not this to take away Scripture from the Christian? Quite the contrary! To understand it according to God is the truest and richest gain; to misapply it to ourselves in Gentile conceit is ruinous (concerning our understanding—NC). Yet there is no instruction in the past or future history of Israel as revealed in the Bible which is not for, though not about, the Church (because the entirety of Scripture “is profitable” - 2Ti 3:1—NC). That such scriptures concerning the Jew may have been written so as to bear an analogous application to the Gentiles is not denied (e.g. God bringing both peoples to Himself—NC); but the application calls for the utmost caution and a “right dividing of the “Word of Truth” (2Ti 2:15), because each economy or dispensation has its own peculiarities, and in not a few things there are confessedly decided and intended contrasts.

    It is an error therefore to read the Church in Judah and Israel, Zion and Jerusalem; and the effect of this alchemy which the Fathers originated (as I believe most were Gnostics, which number well more than those listed in the second paragraph of this article—NC) and handed down to both popery and Protestantism alike have been not only to rob Israel of their proper hope, but to lower that of the Church incalculably.

    Yet no maxim of interpretation can compare with this most misleading identification for importance, antiquity, or widespread reception. Since the Apostles, perhaps beyond every other tradition, has this been accepted always, everywhere, and by all. Fathers, Romanists, Reformers, have alike applied it habitually in their comments, as well as practice.

    But these are points of detail, all of which together are a trifle compared with the one grand principle which effaces Israel from prophecy and instills the Church in their stead. What can be thought of the judgment that could overlook an error so transcendent, vitiating all sound exposition of both Old Testament and New from Genesis to Revelation?

    One can account for it by two considerations: first, a quite superficial estimate of the evil involved in this old and general error; secondly, a very exaggerated feeling against those who looked for a personal Antichrist among the Jews and a future revival of the Roman Empire before the age ends, lest it should weaken Protestantism in the face of the popish reawakening in our day.

    There is no adequate sense of wrong which has been already done the truth for nearly eighteen centuries (this article written circa 1830’s) and the darkening influence which Judaizing the Church has wrought far and wide in Christendom, among the Orientals, Greeks, Latins, as well as Protestants more recently, throughout all its history save the first century.

    The feverish doubt caused by a few fanciful essayists like Drs. Maitland, Todd, Burgh, Messrs, Tyso, Dodsworth and the like, were slight indeed compared with the original paralysis in the distinct perception of the Christian’s heavenly privileges in union with the Lord Jesus Christ on high, or in the just recognition of God’s fidelity to Israel. What an indignity religion puts on every person of the Godhead alike, on the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ, when it drags souls back to the dread distance of Judaism (the Law was a great “veil” between God and Israel, due to its right to condemn via revealing Israel’s sins to them—NC).


    — Wm Kelly (1821 – 1906)
     
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  2. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    I have just printed out this OP, as to read it when time will be available!
    With what I am able to respond about the two forms of Belief's is!
    God made it very Clear, that You Shall Not Add to or Diminish from these words that He Commanded!
    In both case's One has Added thousands of commandments, statutes rules and regulations! and the Other has diminished any of the commandments, it choses not to apply, or except!
    I will be Back!!
     
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  3. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    Thanks for your input Brother in Christ!
     
  4. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    God did cast off FLESHLY Jews, Romans 11:15 is therefore not hyperbole. They were cast off for the sin of unbelief. If they were never really cast off then it could not be possible them to be "graff them in again". Romans 11:23. The word "again" shows fleshly Jews were once a branch now broken off and could be graffed in AGAIN. Since God cast off FLESHLY Jews then why was Paul, a Jew (Romans 11:1) not cast off? For God's people of Romans 11:2 are Christians, those who obeyed God. God's people has always been those who obey Him, in OT those who obeyed by not bowing to Baal (Romans 11:4) and in NT times those who obey the gospel of CHrist (Romans 11:5). THere was a "remnant" of fleshly Jews who did obey Christ (Acts 2:38) making them of GOd's people, the disobedient were cast off. The true Jews is the Christian, the obedient man (Romans 2:29) not of the flesh (Romans 2:28; Romans 9:8). Since there was a remnant of Jews who became Christians (God's people) then GOd did keep His promises to the Jews (Romans 11:29). Romans 11:26 All Israel (Christians) shall be saved which is true, saved by having faith (Romans 11:23). Yet not all fleshly Jews were saved, other than a remnant, the rest were lost due to unbelief, lack of faith.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  5. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    Hi Brother! Though I always appreciate your input, we will have varying opinions on this issue. It's my understanding that the "breaking off" only refers to fellowship with God, not their union in Him, like the copious amount of times He kept returning them to Himself. There were those who always believed in God and those who never did. The former were often disobedient but were always brought back to obedience. But the latter, never having been unbelievers had nothing to "break off" from; for to be in God one had to believe, and it's my understanding that when one believes he always believes, because God keeps him in the faith; which is shown by His unceasing work of returning the believers to obedience to Himself. It's also obvious that those who are in unbelief cannot obey God.

    I also think it significant to note that when Scripture uses the word "unbelief," it nearly always in reference to one who will never believe, e.g. Jhn 3:18.

    God's blessings to the Family!
     
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  6. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes! Many believe that God is real but do not believe in God as their God.
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Addressing the OP only. Judaism or Christianity? why not be what God asked us to be in the first place, "be ye holy for I am Holy". Holiness was here before Judaism or Christianity, or before the earth, or the heaven was created. and if one wants to see JESUS one must be holy. all got to come the same way. Judaism and Christianity make good following disciples of the scriptures. but the Spirit makes one holy be ye Jew, Christian, or Gentile.

    PICJAG.
     
  8. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    Judaism is finished, it does not exist ! we have had it as a blueprint for Christianity 2000 years now.

    The only thing is that when Christianity fails due to lacking of Grace, then comes back that all such rascals will be under the Law again ! that is fitting. in that you reap what you sow.
    The worldly are desperate to be ruled over by mans works, you see this so much nowadays, I remember Obama speech "We will !" ? what a joke ! we will ? by that Obama was truly saying, You will ! that's the reality. nothing to do with God mind you ? yes they have plans for you, so that they can lord it all over you all. Jesus was a great threat to such people and their power over all.
    The next thing they will be building pyramids to their gods.

    Judaism todays has nothing to do with the OT or Judah in fact and only about 10% are worthy of anything to do with Judah. the so called Jews today have more in common with Egypt and the Talmud is nothing to do with Judah and the so called Zionist are nothing to do with Judah, the truly devout Jews who follow the OT and they who truly believe in Holy Moses point that out.

    One thing is that Man has failed and back slid due to it's ego driven state, we will ? well just like when Judah and Israel failed because they rejected God and the cancer set in. we will indeed ? nothing as we can do nothing without Jesus Christ because the is the Vine and we are the branches, we must bear fruit or be cut off ! remember the vine dresser. and remember Nathaniel who he was ? a true Israelite ! and Nathaniel knew who Jesus was directly because he was Israel !
     
  9. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    Hi, and great point! I believe this parallels Rom 1:19, 20.
     
  10. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    "Broken off" in the context (Romans 11:17) has to do with the idea of pruning, that one is cut off from God, severed. "Casting off" (Romans 11:15) means to reject, lost, a losing. Those Jews were lost, spiritually dead due to the sin of unbelief. Paul knew they were lost and was his desire they "might be saved" (Romans 10:1). They were lost for they had rejected the gospel (Romans 10:16), they would not believe with heart unto righteousness or confess with the mouth unto salvation (Romans 10:9-10). Paul said of these Jews that they "...killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:15-16). Only a remnant of the lost Jews in Acts 2 obeyed the gospel and had their sins remitted (Acts 2:38) the rest continued lost in their unremitted, unforgiven sins. The gospel is God's power unto salvation and these Jews were lost for rejecting the gospel, God finally rejected them.

    But God's rejection of the Jews did not mean salvation was impossible for the Jews. Romans 11:28-29 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
    God had promised back Genesis that all nations (including the Hebrew nation) would be blessed in Abraham. In the NT the great commission was to all men, including Jews. If God had cut the Jews off to where salvation was impossible for them then God would have to repent, He would have to change these promises He has made. But because of God's love for the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) God left the door of salvation open for the Jews to find salvation in Jesus Christ. But their continued unbelief and rejection of Christ is not God's fault. God delivered on His promises of salvation and the Messiah but the Jews (other than a remnant) rejected it. 2 Peter 3:9 God's offer of salvation to the lost Jews to be saved still stands today.
     
  11. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    I agree 100%. I've been saying this for years myself. But... someone may protest, the Jews rejected Christ and like anyone who does so is lost. Therefore they reason the church has to pick up the pieces and carry on with what the original writers and people of the bible could not (replacement theology). But they confuse rejection of Christ with God rejecting them. He's not through with them yet. It's God who calls us to salvation and it may not be their time yet, so (I personally believe) that there is future salvation to them to keep the covenants with the Fathers who did have faith. In other words, they rejected Christ, but he did not reject them yet and as such are still his covenant people by whom Christ came.

    Israel is a type and shadow of the Kingdom of God here on Earth, that which was prophesied since the garden, and Israel were the chosen people to carry out this model in which (by extension) the Kingdom will come. If the Jew, Old Testament, etc do not mean anything any longer, the whole purpose and pattern in the bible is terminated and there is no plan or purpose. Either that of God changed his mind and came up with "plan B" which seems to contradict the scripture Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. This is why you have so much diverse opinion and doctrine that does nothing but causes confusion.

    You seem to be lamenting "replacement theology". I call it the "Gentilization of the Bible" where they put the Gentile spin to the interpretation of the bible. Thus, the Sabbath has been done away with and replaced by another day, the God-ordained feasts days were replaced by pagan celebration days (no, the feasts were not meant for 'only the Jew" lest we miss the whole point of the bible), and strange beliefs about mankind, the afterlife and eschatology. Much Greek thought (and wherever they got that from) went into the Western interpretation of the bible.

    The church is the firstfruits of God's salvation to help rule and reign with him, in which Israel, now covenanted with a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) will very much be in the picture. The church replaced nobody. The church (be they Jews are Gentiles) are just the first called ones. The rest will be called later, after this age.
     
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  12. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    ADDENDUM: Christ left earth some 2000 years ago leaving behind His NT gospel as the way of salvation for man Romans 1:16. Since Christ left earth some 2000 years ago until today, there have been millions (billion maybe) of "Jews" who lived and died in unbelief having rejected Christ and His gospel message. Will they all be lost? Will they all be saved anyway?
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously this is false, since Judaism (Talmudism) excludes Christ, and without Christ there is no covenant with Israel.

    By the same token Replacement Theology is false, since after the Second Coming of Christ, there will be a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth. In the meantime, all Jews today are commanded to repent believe on the the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
     
  14. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    That's pinning it down to clarity concerning non-christian Jews! As we know, Jews and Gentiles believing in Jesus are now Christians, and thus it's my understanding here that "Israel" comprises believers in God, but not those who believe in His Son. Since most of Israel existing on the earth up to the time of the Millennium will still only be believers in God (along with the majority of past Jews), they will never be considered Christians, but rather still as the "people of God." I think there's more difficulty thinking that the majority of Israel will perish at Christ's coming than to consider the possibility that Abraham's promise of God (which primarily relates to the saving of his progeny who believe in God, esp. after all these millennia) will not come to pass; this is when they will finally "see Him" (Rev 1:7).
     
  15. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    I think your're correct in the way you stated this, because God's people Israel also received forgiveness (salvation) via believing in God's command of the sin offering (e.g. Num 15:22-31); even though most if not all were unaware and did not realize it to represent Christ's atonement. Yet, as we can see in Abraham, prior to the Law which was nearly a half-century later was saved via his faith in God!
     
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  16. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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  17. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Your position is a Jew can be a believer in God but not a believer in Christ and still be a people of God and still be saved apart from Christ and His gospel?
     
  18. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    Pretty much what I believe! Such is the permanent union of God and His people among the Israelites that believe in Him.
     
  19. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    The Talmud has nothing to do with God, it's totally a mans works thing.
    Israel is the servants of God ! that is what it represents in fact. not to mention that only Christianity can hold that position, for if anyone claims otherwise is an Anti-Christ in fact, no one could be so stupid not to understand that fact, who is representing the servants of God ? now lets be serious, how can one represent God without supporting Jesus Christ ! now if one claims that Christianity does not represent the servants of God, just who the hell is such a one ? such is rejecting Jesus is the Christ in fact, so anyone who claims that Christianity is not Israel is a Satanist !

    Judah is the people of God ! or this represents the people of God, now they do not serve God, they are just a part of the Tribe system of OT one could say and one could say that the Christians who are not born again are only just a people of God, for they are not Saved because they do not have faith that can move mountains, this comes down to what the Bible points out, Oh you of little faith ! this does not cut it and remember the split between Judah and Israel in the OT. well the two sticks are to come back together ? so as to be come back as one ! well I would say that was when Christ came as he is the only truly joining force in the world in fact.

    At the end of the day regardless all have to come to Jesus to be Saved, one has to be born again of the Holy Spirit, ones race has noting at all to do with it at all what so ever ! looking to a mob claiming to be Jews is insane. the fact is that only a worldly person would entertain such rubbish ! i am totally convinced that one who is that gullible would swallow what Hitler's racist dribble was hook line and sinker back in the days. simpletons ! easy lead by mans works BS and all. why I ask do such people swallow such BS, well they are Lost ! they are not found ? they are blown about by trends of the day, they don't have their feet on the ground, they are off with the pixies, devoid of the Holy Spirit or Satanist leading others astray.

    I preach Jesus Christ ! but nowadays the Churches peddle Mans works and some BS about the so called Jews are going to save you. fact is the Jews could not ever save themselves. why do churches peddle this BS nowadays ? well they have abandoned Christ Jesus that's why ! for if they had not they would not peddle such dribble. fact is that you can do nothing without Jesus Christ. all other is just a mans works nonsense of madness that can't progress forward.
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


    Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
     
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