JSOC is written by Paul & mentioned nowhere else.
Sheep & Goat judgment is not taught by Paul nor is the Great White Throne in Rev
Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?
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Sheep & Goat judgment is not taught by Paul nor is the Great White Throne in Rev
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
It means that the living in Christ will not be caught up before the dead in CHRIST ARE RAISED.
Believers in Thessalonica were informed about those who had fallen asleep in him, that's the context in which Paul writes. That's the reason the unbelieving folk are not mentioned here.
Paul clearly includes them in 2 thess 1, as the context is Gods righteous judgment. They suffer eternal punishment on the day he comes to glorify his own at his appearing.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Upon the rock of Peter's confession Christ would build his Church.
Its the same Gospel then right?
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I guess Paul never taught us how to make bread, drive motor cars, deal with AI or the procedure in dating girls.
What Paul does is marry The Jesus event with God's overwhelmingly generous Grace. Paul defines the character of God as revealed in Jesus.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What Paul made clear is that any gospel besides the one he preached was a false gospel. So, he taught the same gospel that the 12 disciples preached.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Romans 14:8-10 (KJV) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we [BELIEVERS] shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Who is Paul speaking to? The context shows it is both those who have lived and died unto the the Lord for "WE ARE THE LORD'S"!!! Paul is NOT speaking to unbelievers standing before the judgment seat of Christ. Unbelievers shall stand before the GWTJ to give account before God when Christ comes again, only believers in this life stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and in this life believers receive reward for doing good. In this life believers "receive an hundredfold" that in the world to come we shall have eternal life with Christ on the new earth.
Mark 10:29-30 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 (KJV) Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
We all know human kings sat upon earthly thrones of which there are many; a tribunal refers to a seat or place of judgment where decisions are made by the reigning power regarding the conduct, fate, or justice of individuals or nations. Throne in this verse is derived from the Greek base word bēma - from baínō - G939 of a step, i.e. foot-breath; by implication, a rostrum, i.e. a tribunal: —judgment-seat, set (foot) on, throne.
When Herod set his foot upon a throne, he was making himself as a god before the people, who said, "the voice of a god, and not of a man". Since from the throne he did not give the glory to God....it did not end well for him. Will you also imagine that an earthly throne a mere man sat upon can be compared with the JSC and the GWT?
Acts 12:21-23 (KJV) And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are not addressing my point. You're making a strawman argument. I didn't say that Paul wasn't writing to believers. I'm saying he is telling them they will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, but he did not say that only they will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. That is your assumption. In Romans 14:11 he gave evidence to back up what he was telling them by referencing Isaiah 45:22-24. So, are you willing to discuss what is indicated in Isaiah 45:22-24?
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
What is written that Paul refers to in Romans 14:11? This..
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Can you see here that "all that are incensed against him" are included among those who will bow before Him? Please address this. Paul was not intending to tell his audience that only they would appear before the judgment seat of Christ, but rather he was informing them that they would all be among those who appear before the judgment seat of Christ. The passage he referenced to support what he said indicates that "all that are incensed against him" will appear before the judgment seat of Christ and they "shall be ashamed". That describes the goats that Jesus referenced in Matthew 25:31-46 in contrast to the believers (sheep) that Paul was addressing.
This is another strawman argument. I am not claiming that Jesus will sit on an earthly throne. The same word that can refer to an earthly throne or seat refers to the judgment seat of Christ. I showed that the Greek word can be translated as "throne". That doesn't mean it can only refer to an earthly throne. It can refer to any type of throne or seat, whether earthly or heavenly.
Just as the Father shall be the judge at the GWT, so too, as the Son of man, Christ is given judgment over man in this life during this age for proclaiming eternal entrance into the Kingdom of God through Christ Jesus the Lord. From His judgment seat Christ will judge man according to how mankind hears and responds to His Word (Gospel) proclaimed. The one who hears and believes on Him that sent Him, has everlasting life and is passed from death unto life. This is why only believers shall stand at the JSC. It is in this life before man dies that they are being judged by Christ (JSC) to determine whether they are righteous, who stand (good) or remain unrighteous (bad) who shall not stand.
John 5:21-27 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Acts 10:42 (KJV) And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 17:31 (KJV) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 2:16 (KJV) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2 Thessalonians 1:10-12 (KJV) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
All of mankind will indeed bow down at the name of Jesus. Either in this life when we hear the gospel and believe on Him or at the GWTJ, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth as the righteous shine forth, and the unrighteous bound hand and foot shall go away into everlasting punishment at the end of the world. Man must bow the knee to the name of Jesus (JSC) before they die, or they will bow before the Father at the GWTJ. This is what the prophet Isaiah shows us regarding those who were ashamed and incensed at the name of Jesus upon hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ but remain in hardness and unbelief.
Matthew 25:46 (KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 13:40-43 (KJV) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:50 (KJV) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13 (KJV) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I've already explained the difference between the great white throne of the Father, and the judgment seat of Christ. The GWTJ at the end of the world, and the JSC when all who believe on Him shall bow before Him for eternal life that shall NEVER be lost!
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What are you basing this on? I thought you agreed that Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the GWTJ? Do you see it as a separate judgment from the judgment seat of Christ and the GWT judgment?
Jesus will be the judge at the GWT.
John 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
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The GWTJ shall be at the end of the world when Christ comes again, and the DEAD, those who are never among the righteous shall be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life! The JSC judges' mankind in the flesh through the gospel proclaimed. The Father and the Son are ONE God.
John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.
John 5:17 (KJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
John 5:19-24 (KJV) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:17-18 (KJV) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The JSC judges' man in the flesh, what they have done in the body whether good (unto righteousness) or bad (unrighteous) according to how they hear (respond to) the gospel while physically alive. If while in the body of flesh the JSC judges' man to be righteous, they have passed from death to life and at the GWTJ they shall NOT be judged with the DEAD but shall receive the promised inheritance of eternal immortal physical life on the new earth with Christ forever.
2 Corinthians 5:9 (KJV) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Romans 14:8-12 (KJV) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
The distinction between the JSC and the GWTJ is the JSC judge's man while they are still physically alive in this world. But the GWTJ shall spiritually judge whether or not man is spiritually alive or is among the spiritually DEAD at the end of this world. When we've gone from death to life before we die, we have this promise that we shall not be judged with the DEAD to be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced at all by your arguments. I see no indication anywhere in 2 Corinthians 5:10 or Romans 14:10-12 that it's talking about an ongoing judgment only of believers rather than referring to the same judgment portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. For whatever reason, you will not address what I'm saying about how Paul references Isaiah 45:22-24 in Romans 14:11 and how that passage refers to unbelievers being among those who bow down before the judgment seat of Christ. So, you're drawing conclusions without all of the info that Paul was drawing from. So, it's time to agree to disagree about this topic.
I just have one last question for clarification purposes. Since you believe in separate judgments (JSC and GTW), which judgment do you believe that Matthew 25:31-46 refers to? I think you said before that it refers to the GWTJ, which I agree with, but it describes Jesus talking to believers about things that they did during their lives and I don't see how that's different from what is described in the passages about the judgment seat of Christ. But, whatever. I'm not going to repeat the same discussion we've already had.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm sure he, an amillennialist, will be thrilled to see that a pre-trib dispensationalist agrees with his post.
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