Just For Catholics.

[Philip James]

The Didache, written by people who walked and talked with the Apostles, instructs us what to do with the Eucharist (bread and wine).

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

Through Him and with Him and in Him,
In the unity of the Holy Spirit,

All glory and honour forever to our Almighty Father!

 

[epostle]

Can you provide a verse where Jesus 'earned' infinite grace on the cross? How does one 'earn' grace in the first place? Since by definition grace is unmerited.

Unmerited grace is a Catholic doctrine you borrowed from us.

I've never said that confession doesn't mean Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. But penance and purgatory does. Your own ccc 1459 and 1475 show that you expiate or make satisfaction for your sin. Which is atoning for your sin. Meaning, Jesus didn't do it all on the cross. Hence His sacrifice wasn't enough.

You are off topic. I am not going to debate your non-sequitur fallacies and gross misunderstandings. I opened this thread to serve as an oasis for Catholics who wish to get away from the fruitless argumentation (which Paul condemns) that dominates this forum . It doesn't matter how well something is explained, a person predisposed to hostility will not receive it, it's a waste of time. Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) If you wish to dialogue with me on this the way mature Christians are supposed to, read the link, and open a new thread. Your tone is hostile and insulting. Scroll back and listen to the video, "Open Letter to Christians" Truth without love is not truth.

 

[Nondenom40]

Unmerited grace is a Catholic doctrine you borrowed from us.

Unmerited grace isn't a doctrine, its the definition of charis. Grace is by definition unmerited. But your statement said Jesus earned i.e. merited grace. And if unmerited grace is a catholic doctrine why didnt you say that? You said the exact opposite. Grace being unmerited is biblical, not roman catholic.

But back to my initial question. Can you show us a verse where Jesus earned infinite grace?

You are off topic. I am not going to debate your non-sequitur fallacies and gross misunderstandings. I opened this thread to serve as an oasis for Catholics who wish to get away from the fruitless argumentation (which Paul condemns) that dominates this forum . It doesn't matter how well something is explained, a person predisposed to hostility will not receive it, it's a waste of time. Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) If you wish to dialogue with me on this the way mature Christians are supposed to, read the link, and open a new thread. Your tone is hostile and insulting. Scroll back and listen to the video, "Open Letter to Christians" Truth without love is not truth.

I'm not off topic. You gave the false assertion that we think that by catholics going to confession Jesus didn't do enough. That has never been a concern of mine. However the catholic teaching on penance and purgatory does in fact call in to question Jesus' sacrifice not being sufficient.

And my 'tone' isn't hostile or insulting. Unless quoting your ccc is considered hostile? Paul also said expose false teachings Eph 5:11.

 

[epostle]

Unmerited grace isn't a doctrine, its the definition of charis. Grace is by definition unmerited. But your statement said Jesus earned i.e. merited grace. And if unmerited grace is a catholic doctrine why didnt you say that? You said the exact opposite. Grace being unmerited is biblical, not roman catholic.

I didn't say Jesus earned unmerited grace. His death on the cross is the source of unmerited grace. Please quote me accurately by using the quote feature.

But back to my initial question. Can you show us a verse where Jesus earned infinite grace?

No such verse exists. You are presupposing a falsehood that Catholicism does not teach. It's a straw man fallacy.

I'm not off topic. You gave the false assertion that we think that by catholics going to confession Jesus didn't do enough. That has never been a concern of mine. However the catholic teaching on penance and purgatory does in fact call in to question Jesus' sacrifice not being sufficient.

And my 'tone' isn't hostile or insulting. Unless quoting your ccc is considered hostile? Paul also said expose false teachings Eph 5:11.

Misrepresenting the CCC with isolated paragraphs is bearing false witness.
Exodus 20:16
Proverbs 6:16-19
Paul also taught against the scandal of disunity. The Bible never attacks the Church. Fashioning attack weapons from the CCC is a form of witchcraft IMO.

The purpose of purgatory is to purify us so that we are thoroughly holy and thus fit for heaven. It is part of the process by which we gain "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14).

But the process of purification doesn’t start in purgatory. It starts in this life, and in Protestant circles it’s known as sanctification. (Catholics also use this term, though not always in exactly the same fashion; the term justification is also used in both circles though not always in the same ways.)

Now, where does sanctification come from? Is it something God gives us by his grace or something that happens apart from his grace?

Protestants will agree with Catholics that it is the product of God’s grace in our lives.

But why is God giving us this grace? Is it because of what his Son did on the Cross or is it separate from that?

Once again, Protestants will agree with Catholics that it is because of what Christ did on the Cross that God sanctifies us.

So sanctification–the process of being made holy–is something that happens to us only because of Christ’s death on the Cross.

Sanctification–including the final stage of sanctification in purgatory–thus presupposes the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice. It is so sufficient that it is not only enough to justify us but enough to sanctify us as well. The difference is that (to use language in a Protestant way) justification is something that happens at the beginning of the Christian life while sanctification is something that happens over the course of it.
Purgatory & The Sufficiency Of Christ’s Sacrifice – Jimmy Akin

 

[Nondenom40]

No such verse exists. You are presupposing a falsehood that Catholicism does not teach. It's a straw man fallacy.

You said this on post # 16
"There are two problems with this objection.

First, the power of Confession depends entirely on the sacrifice of Christ. Christ earned infinite grace on the cross,"

Now youre saying its not even a verse in the bible calling it a falsehood. Well i agree. I'll address the rest later.

 

[epostle]

@Nondenom40
Daniel B. Wallace
Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary.
The following are words from this Protestant Bible scholar:

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—

• there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head,
• no accountability beyond the local congregation,
• no fellowship beyond the local assembly,
• no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and
• no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.

With that, you are trying to "correct" Catholicism.​

 

[Giuliano]

You forgot what you wrote? It did get quoted once. Here it is again.

First, the power of Confession depends entirely on the sacrifice of Christ. Christ earned infinite grace on the cross, and the Sacrament of Confession is one important way that grace is applied to an individual.

If you meant something else, please just say so. We all make mistakes. Why make such a big deal out of it?

 

[Nondenom40]

@Nondenom40
Daniel B. Wallace
Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary.
The following are words from this Protestant Bible scholar:

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—

• there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head,
• no accountability beyond the local congregation,
• no fellowship beyond the local assembly,
• no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and
• no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.

With that, you are trying to "correct" Catholicism.​

Off topic. You made a statement, i'm asking you to substantiate YOUR statement. So far it seems youre unable to or you would have done it already.

 

[epostle]

HOW TO READ THE CATECHISM

​

Quite early on, the name catechesis was given to the totality of the Church's efforts to make disciples, to help men believe that Jesus is the Son of God so that believing they might have life in his name, and to educate and instruct them in this life, thus building up the body of Christ. [CCC #4]

"Catechesis is an education in the faith of children, young people and adults which includes especially the teaching of Christian doctrine imparted, generally speaking, in an organic and systematic way, with a view to initiating the hearers into the fullness of Christian life." [CCC #5]

This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries". [CCC #15]

This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole. [CCC #18]
Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church - How To Read ​

 

[epostle]

Off topic. You made a statement, i'm asking you to substantiate YOUR statement. So far it seems youre unable to or you would have done it already.

I have done that. First briefly (post #24), then with more detail (post#25). Obviously you are incapable of meaningful dialogue, by ignoring or denying everything I say, and making a big pharisaical deal over the word "earned". You are too argumentative for me to waste time on. Christ earned infinite grace on the cross,". It's not how this particular theology is expressed in one brief sentence you have a problem with, you have a problem with the English language, because there is nothing about it that goes against the overall teaching in scripture.
Your entire premesis is based on a false ecclesiology, which nondenoms boast about being disconnected from everyone else. You have no grounds to criticize Catholicism based on prejudice and an abuse of the catechism. Goodbye.

 

[Nondenom40]

HOW TO READ THE CATECHISM

​

Quite early on, the name catechesis was given to the totality of the Church's efforts to make disciples, to help men believe that Jesus is the Son of God so that believing they might have life in his name, and to educate and instruct them in this life, thus building up the body of Christ. [CCC #4]

"Catechesis is an education in the faith of children, young people and adults which includes especially the teaching of Christian doctrine imparted, generally speaking, in an organic and systematic way, with a view to initiating the hearers into the fullness of Christian life." [CCC #5]

This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries". [CCC #15]

This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole. [CCC #18]
Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church - How To Read ​

Your ccc teaches roman catholicism, not biblical christianity. It contains all of its unbiblical, unfounded dogmas; Marys assumption, ic, pv, papal infallibility....But while we are speaking of your ccc, can you tell us which of these is correct?

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

So, do you expiate your sins or does Jesus 'who ALONE' expiated our sins? Just curious. If Jesus expiated our sins, why are you doing it via penance or purgatory?

 

[Nondenom40]

Seems someone doesn't want to play ball so he picks it up and goes home. Yes the poster did in fact say Jesus 'earned' infinite grace;

"You said this on post # 16
"There are two problems with this objection.

First, the power of Confession depends entirely on the sacrifice of Christ. Christ earned infinite grace on the cross,"

Then says he didn't say it. Grace, whatever definition he wants to pour into it is in fact unmerited. So Jesus earned/merited infinite grace. Something that is unmerited. Well no one ever said catholicism was rational.

 

[Giuliano]

Seems someone doesn't want to play ball so he picks it up and goes home. Yes the poster did in fact say Jesus 'earned' infinite grace;

"You said this on post # 16
"There are two problems with this objection.

First, the power of Confession depends entirely on the sacrifice of Christ. Christ earned infinite grace on the cross,"

Then says he didn't say it. Grace, whatever definition he wants to pour into it is in fact unmerited. So Jesus earned/merited infinite grace. Something that is unmerited. Well no one ever said catholicism was rational.

Perhaps he confesses his shortcomings only to his priest? I don't know how that solves problems when we have them among ourselves. He is too proud perhaps to admit any mistake to a non-Catholic? Who knows?

I am of the opinion that if I mess up with someone, the best thing to do is to own up to it with him so the problem goes away.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[Nondenom40]

Perhaps he confesses his shortcomings only to his priest? I don't know how that solves problems when we have them among ourselves. He is too proud perhaps to admit any mistake to a non-Catholic? Who knows?

I am of the opinion that if I mess up with someone, the best thing to do is to own up to it with him so the problem goes away.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Don't know. This isn't a simple shortcoming but bad theology. He just doesn't want to admit it. Jesus didn't earn infinite grace on the cross. Grace can't be earned. But tell a catholic that.

 

[Giuliano]

Don't know. This isn't a simple shortcoming but bad theology. He just doesn't want to admit it. Jesus didn't earn infinite grace on the cross. Grace can't be earned. But tell a catholic that.

I don't his words came out right. I don't think he really meant to write that.

 

[epostle]

I've yet to meet an anti-Catholic who properly understands what it is they are attacking. That goes all the way back to Luther. I agree with Fulton Sheen. Anti-Catholics don't know that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, as Sheen says. They sincerely believe a falsehood, in ignorance. That is my point, and it is a very simple one. And simply being told truth cannot quickly or easily overcome mountains of prejudices, dispositions, biases, false paradigms and worldviews, truckloads of individual lies told about the Church, a vigorous and systematic opposing view which appears altogether plausible to them, emotions, family, background, culture, oftentimes hostile spouses, possible loss of jobs or resultant persecution, etc. People with this baggage cannot yet hear the truth.

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: How Anti-Catholics Can be Catholics' Brothers in Christ

I use the ignore feature as a last resort. I don't mean the big red button to be a punch in the face; I use ignore because I am a weak sinner and easily tempted to react with anger and uncharitableness. We call it, "avoiding the near occasion of sin". I am trying to be charitable, but it isn't easy.

 

[Nondenom40]

I've yet to meet a catholic to own up to his/her own statements. They make claims they know they can't back up. When questioned, its our fault.

And when citing their own ccc verbatim its all of a sudden 'off topic'. How convenient.

 

[epostle]

Prayer For Our Non-Catholic Brothers and Sisters
(Especially Those Who Do Not Regard Us As Their Brothers and Sisters in Christ)
​

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Dear Lord,

We come to You today, particularly on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Christ who do not regard us as brothers and sisters in Christ. We know that such disunity grieves the Holy Spirit and how scandalous it is to the observing world, since Your Son commanded us (His disciples) to be one as You and Your Son were one (John 17:11), and that this would cause the world to know that He was the Messiah and Son of God (John 17:21).

Please forgive them their errors in this regard; have mercy on them, and reveal to them the wickedness of Christian disunity. Help them to better understand that the Catholic Church is not what they think it is. Please forgive us, Father, our sins of language and lack of charity and cynicism and for unnecessarily striking back in anger or frustration, when responding to these brothers and sisters. Help us to be more compassionate and loving and gracious, as You are.

Lord, help us all to control our tongues and to have discernment and wisdom to know when humor or satire is proper and necessary (such as when Elijah mocked the false prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel or Your Son's criticisms of the Pharisees or Paul's sarcastic remarks about castration). Forgive us (through the blood of Jesus and Your Holy Spirit) our pride and arrogance and any haughtiness or triumphalism in our presentations of or defense of Catholic truths. Humor is Your gift to us also, but help us to sanctify it and to know when and where to utilize humor in the course of our proclamations and defenses of what we hold dear. We all often fall short in that, Lord. Help us to do better, with Your aid and guidance.

Bless these precious brethren abundantly, O Lord. Reward them for their zeal and desire to serve You and defend Christian truths. We thank You for the work these brothers in Christ do, that is very helpful and edifying, such as refuting the errors of theological liberalism, Mormonism, the radical homosexual movement, fighting for the right to life of preborn children,
against Islam and other errors, and so forth.

Help us, dear Father, to remember that many of us (especially Catholic converts) were also formerly blinded to many aspects of the Catholic Church. Like Paul, we persecuted and misrepresented that which we fought against, with great sincerity and correct motivation, but misguided and hurtful and divisive zeal. We sincerely believed that the Catholic Church was on the wrong side, and a promulgator of darkness and opposed to the gospel of grace. Help us remember that in our occasional exasperation over those who sadly believe the same things today. It is all by Your grace that any of us grasp any of Your truths.

We thank You that these brethren do care enough about truth to stand up and fight for what they believe in. Help them, Father, to see when they are blinded by various biases and environments, to hear when they listen to Catholic explanations, and to grasp what they presently do not comprehend.

Remove from all of us our blind spots, fallacies, errors, stubbornness, and pride. We ask that You bless our brothers and sisters who are most hostile to the Catholic Church (and all of our Christian brethren) with all good things: loyal, trustworthy friends, peace, happiness, freedom from sin and anxiety, the love of family, wisdom, discernment, effectiveness of witness and outreach when they are preaching Your truths, and all other blessed, edifying things.

Help us to remember that Your Son was accused of being demon-possessed, and that Your apostle Paul was persecuted for simply telling the truth. Help us to rejoice when all manner of falsehood is spoken against us, and to never fall into the same error regarding our critics and "enemies".

We pray, Lord, that all Christians can better seek to understand each other, pray for each other, rejoice in the many things we share, and to respectfully discuss those areas where we have honest, sincere disagreements. Don't let any of us fall into the sin of indifference, whereby we no longer think some Christian truth that You have revealed to us is not important enough to defend or to be mocked for holding.

Father, we fervently pray for Christian unity. As Catholics, we believe that our Church is the One True Church that You established. But we understand that not all who are not formally a member of the Catholic Church, are (for many reasons) necessarily deprived of Your grace, or fellowship with You, or of the many endowments of the Holy Spirit and knowledge of truths of Christianity. Quite the contrary. Your grace is not confined to institutional structures (however true or necessary those structures may be, in and of themselves).

Thank You for these brethren, Lord, and all of the many important contributions that they bring to the Body of Christ. We praise You especially for the sacraments of baptism and marriage, shared by these brethren with us.

Thank You for their zeal, their fire and witness, love of the Bible and prayer and fellowship; for their fervent worship and desire to make Your Son Jesus Lord of all of life, for their zeal and commitment to evangelism of the lost, and for their stance on traditional morality, and against the spirit of the age. Thank You for our pro-life separated brethren in Christ. We know that in many ways these brethren put us Catholics to shame. They have so much to teach us, in how to be day-to-day committed disciples of Your Son.

May we learn in these many ways from their praiseworthy examples, and the true and beneficial aspects of these various non-Catholic Christian traditions and ways of life, and we ask that we may also be good witnesses of the Catholic tradition, so that they may see some good thing in us and on our Church as well, by Your entirely undeserved mercy and grace.

Again, I ask for Your blessing, especially on our most hostile brothers and sisters in Christ, who know not what they do, in criticizing the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Guide and protect them from evil and falsehood, Lord. Lead those who want to follow You, into the fullness of Your paths of truth and righteousness, for Your name's sake (Psalm 23:3), whether it is within the formal boundaries of the Catholic Church or not.

We know that these brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus are sincere and honest and believe what they do with all the passion and commitment that we bring to our own heartfelt doctrinal beliefs. Show all of us what is right and wrong, and true and false. Help us to appreciate each other and to pray for one another, and to (particularly) pray for those who may speak all manner of evil against us, and even to rejoice that they do, and not to return insult with insult (Matthew 5:11-12).

Be with all of us, Lord. We are Your people; miserable and divided and compromised and sinful though we may be. Guide our very footsteps, that we may not slip and fall (Psalm 17:5). Set us upon Your rock (Psalm 27:5). Don't let us fall into the great sin of divisiveness and discord against our brethren in Christ. Help us to guard ourselves, by Your grace, so that deadly poison may not proceed from our tongues (James 3:8). Help us to maintain pure thoughts (Philippians 4:8), and to love everyone around us, as Your Son loved us (John 15:12), lest we be mere clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13:1) or whitewashed tombs (Matthew 23:27).

Especially, we ask that You be with our separated brethren, Lord, and guide them; especially those who think we are not their brothers in Christ. Bless them, reward them for their devotion to You, and have mercy on us.

In Jesus' precious and glorious name, and by the grace made possible by His shed blood on the cross on our behalf; Amen.

Anti-Catholicism (Index Page for Apologist Dave Armstrong)
​

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that Mary and the saints cannot be co-mediators between God and man.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Giuliano]

Anti-Catholics don't know that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, as Sheen says.

Frankly, I don't even understand what the what Catholics mean by the phrase "Catholic Church" since they use it two ways. At times they seem to equate the spiritual Church, the Bride of Christ, with the material church known to men on earth as "the Catholic Church."

It causes tremendous confusion. I do not see corrupt priests and bishops as part of the spiritual Church known as the "Catholic Church" any more than I see corrupt Protestant ministers. I see them as serpents who have infiltrated the earthly church.

The problem I have is when Catholics confuse the two and seem to see everyone in the earthly church as part of the Spiritual Church. . . if they are Catholics.