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epostle

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It seems to me that Mary and the saints cannot be co-mediators between God and man.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
"one mediator" and a "co-mediator" are not equal mediators. You become a "co-mediator" when you hand a new Christian a Bible, or pray for others. It is BECAUSE Christ is the sole mediator that He allows us to CO-operate with Him. As an analogy, a co-pilot of an airplane does not have equal authority with the captain, but can still fly the plane. "co" simply does not mean "equal to". You, me, Mary and the saints intercession does not usurp the role of Christ as sole mediator in any way. Calvinism does not forbid praying for others.

We ask Mary or the saints to pray for us, ("...the prayers of a righteous person avails much...", James 5) they take our prayers and give them to God on our behalf. Then God may or may not answer the prayer, not Mary or the saints. They have no power whatsoever without God. Maybe you can explain why this is so confusing for Protestants.
 
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justbyfaith

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"one mediator" and a "co-mediator" are not equal mediators. You become a "co-mediator" when you hand a new Christian a Bible, or pray for others. It is BECAUSE Christ is the sole mediator that He allows us to CO-operate with Him. As an analogy, a co-pilot of an airplane does not have equal authority with the captain, but can still fly the plane. "co" simply does not mean "equal to". Calvinism does not forbid praying for others.
It is saying that there is no mediator between God and men except for the Man Christ Jesus.

Therefore Mary and the saints cannot be co-mediators.

Can a saint who is in heaven hand a new Christian a Bible?

If I even hand a new Christian a Bible, that does not make me a mediator between him and the Lord.

We come to God through Jesus; and not through Mary or the saints. He is the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Him. And this is not true of Mary and the saints.

In some Catholic circles, I have heard that they even exalt Mary to the position of co-mediatrix.

Did Mary die on the Cross for our sins?

Jesus is the only One who did that. He took the weight of the world's sins on His shoulders; and died bearing their penalty of wrath and justice. Mary did not do this. She may have felt the pain that a mother has for her child who is suffering; but she did not bear the weight of the sins of the world upon her shoulders; and neither did she die to take the penalty of wrath and justice over them.

The only one who qualifies as a mediator between God and men is the One who took the penalty for our sins upon His own life.
 

epostle

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This is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word “martyr.”

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:
‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.​

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1,
and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.
 

epostle

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It is saying that there is no mediator between God and men except for the Man Christ Jesus.
Therefore Mary and the saints cannot be co-mediators.
This is not a rebuttal or refutation, it is a denial of what I said. Either you refuse to understand the English meaning of "co", or you build up this false dichotomy of "either/or": because Jesus is the sole mediator, therefore there cannot be subordinate mediators. That is a false dichotomy. There is plenty of scripture to support the meaning of subordinate co-mediators that does not usurp or supplant the role of Christ. I'll post them if you like. It's sole mediator both/and subordinate mediators. Scripture does not support one to the exclusion of the other. (either/or thinking) I'm interested in any scripture you can provide to the contrary.
 

Philip James

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Frankly, I don't even understand what the what Catholics mean by the phrase "Catholic Church" since they use it two ways. At times they seem to equate the spiritual Church, the Bride of Christ, with the material church known to men on earth as "the Catholic Church."

It causes tremendous confusion. I do not see corrupt priests and bishops as part of the spiritual Church known as the "Catholic Church" any more than I see corrupt Protestant ministers. I see them as serpents who have infiltrated the earthly church.

The problem I have is when Catholics confuse the two and seem to see everyone in the earthly church as part of the Spiritual Church. . . if they are Catholics.

We see all the baptized as part of the Catholic Church.

Peace be with you!
 

Giuliano

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We see all the baptized as part of the Catholic Church.

Peace be with you!
I grapple trying to understand things like this:

As Catholics, we believe that our Church is the One True Church that You established. But we understand that not all who are not formally a member of the Catholic Church, are (for many reasons) necessarily deprived of Your grace, or fellowship with You, or of the many endowments of the Holy Spirit and knowledge of truths of Christianity. Quite the contrary. Your grace is not confined to institutional structures (however true or necessary those structures may be, in and of themselves).
 

Philip James

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I grapple trying to understand things like this:

As Catholics, we believe that our Church is the One True Church that You established. But we understand that not all who are not formally a member of the Catholic Church, are (for many reasons) necessarily deprived of Your grace, or fellowship with You, or of the many endowments of the Holy Spirit and knowledge of truths of Christianity. Quite the contrary. Your grace is not confined to institutional structures (however true or necessary those structures may be, in and of themselves).

One can say with assurance where the Church is but not where it is not.

Peace!
 

Philip James

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I remain confused. How does that square with, "We see all the baptized as part of the Catholic Church."

If you have been baptized into Christ, then you have been born anew, and have become a member in the One Church that Jesus founded through His apostles.

What confuses you?

Pax!
 

Giuliano

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If you have been baptized into Christ, then you have been born anew, and have become a member in the One Church that Jesus founded through His apostles.

What confuses you?

Pax!
What you wrote. "One can say with assurance where the Church is but not where it is not." That statement suggests to me that "maybe" some non-Catholic Christians aren't really part of the "One Church."
 

Philip James

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What you wrote. "One can say with assurance where the Church is but not where it is not." That statement suggests to me that "maybe" some non-Catholic Christians aren't really part of the "One Church."

We are bound by Jesus, not He by us, He pours out His grace on whomsoever He wills,
Yet all who are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are born of Him, and thus are members of His Church.

Did that clarify it for you?

Peace!
 

Giuliano

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We are bound by Jesus, not He by us, He pours out His grace on whomsoever He wills,
Yet all who are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are born of Him, and thus are members of His Church.

Did that clarify it for you?

Peace!
Not entirely. Why did you say one cannot say with assurance where the Church is not? Do you understand how I could read that as a hurtful remark?
 
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Philip James

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Not entirely. Why did you say one cannot say with assurance where the Church is not? Do you understand how I could read that as a hurtful remark?

Not really, unless you were one who is hesitating to be baptized, to which I would say why wait?

Peace!
 

epostle

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That there is one mediator means that there are no other mediators.
There is one mediator but I am still waiting for scriptural evidence that denies subordinate mediators. Subordinate mediators is entirely dependent on the sole mediator. You are forcing them to mean the same thing with thoughtless parroting. If you will not or cannot provide scriptural evidence, then it is safe to say the denial of subordinate mediatorship is a tradition of men, based on a false dichotomy.
Here is a massive amount of resources for anyone who wishes to continue in this discussion, or for those seeking the truth about what Catholics believe. JBF, I'm backing out of this discussion because the temptation to be uncharitable with you is too strong. You have the last word. I invite you brows around, don't try to read all of it.

Prayers to the saints originated with the Jews, not the pagans

1) Praying to Saints (i.e., Asking Them to Intercede): Rich Man and Lazarus
2) Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death
3) The Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead
4) Jesus and Peter Prayed to Saints and for the Dead


Why Would Anyone Pray to Saints Rather Than to God?

Asking angels to intercede: perfectly biblical

The Communion of Saints: Biblical Overview

Dave Armstrong Index Page
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic (temporarily down
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
The Communion of Saints
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding? [2-15-06]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding? [12-29-06]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Bible on Invocation of Angels & Saved Human Beings [6-10-08]

***
“One Mediator” (1 Tim 2:5) vs. All Human Mediation?
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Invocation of Saints & the Bible: Dialogue [2-14-10]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Bible on Asking Dead Men to Intercede (Luke 16) [7-8-14]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Dialogue with an Anglican on “Praying to Mary,” Patron Saints, Etc. (vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [11-10-14]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Praying to Angels & Angelic Intercession [2015]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Asking Saints to Intercede: Teaching of Jesus [2015]

*
Why Pray to Saints Rather than God? [9-4-15]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Reply to a Lutheran Pastor on Invocation of Saints [12-1-15]

*
Dialogue on Praying to Abraham (Luke 16) [5-22-16]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
Prayer to Saints: “New” [?] Biblical Argument [5-23-16]
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/ap...ts/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
This is intended to be an informative thread, not a debate thread. May God bless you.
 

justbyfaith

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I am not claiming that Catholics worship saints; but that they come to God through saints in heaven, thus making saints in heaven their mediators between God and men.

Thank you for giving me the last word. It indicates to me that you know that you cannot win this one.

Because it is clear that if there is one mediator between God and men, that there cannot be other mediators between God and men other than that one.
 

Nondenom40

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If you have been baptized into Christ, then you have been born anew, and have become a member in the One Church that Jesus founded through His apostles.

What confuses you?

Pax!
Water baptism doesn't make anyone a christian any more than going to mcdonalds makes you a hamburger. Water baptism is what those who are already saved do out of obedience to Jesus' command.