Just heard about the rosary....

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Foreigner

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And this is a big problem with prot's as they are so wrapped up with worldly perceptions, that they disregard totally the Spiritual position.

-- It is the "caths" (lol) spiritual position that is the problem. Unsupported, unsubstantiated, non-scriptural claims like this:

"To cause Mary to be born without original sin and its stain (i.e., immaculate), God infused sanctifying grace into her soul at the moment of her conception. Mary was given the special privilege of being conceived without original sin (with sanctifying grace) and without the damage or stain such a conception causes." - Neophyte


Mary is a mother to all Christians i would think.

-- Jesus never told me to pray to my or His mother. He said to call on Him - directly.

Those that claim that saying the Hail Mary is honoring Him are - to say the least - stretching it a bit.

In the Hail Mary you tell Mary:
- She is full of grace
- The Lord is with her
- She is blessed among woman
- The fruit of her womb is blessed
- You want her to pray for us

The "caths" in this thread try to sell that as focusing on Jesus.

They are still trying to say even though a 5-decade rosary where you say the Hail Mary 153 times, but the Our Father (the way JESUS HIMSELF taught us we should pray) only six times.

Then you finish up with this:

"HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

First, you are asking Mary to turn her "eyes of mercy towards us" when you should be asking that DIRECTLY of Jesus, as He says we can.
It is Jesus' mercy we are to seek. Not Mary's.

What is sad is that people actually think Jesus would deny His mercy because Mary gave a thumbs-down,
("Sorry, I'd like to but my mom says no") or that He wouldn't have shown you mercy without her ("I was going to ignore your prayers, your pleas and pain, but since my mom asked...") I don't think so.

And before Neophyte or Mungo goes there, it matters not what she did on earth in her efforts to convince her son to change the water into wine. His death tore the curtain seperating man from God and freed us to address Him directly and intimately.
He doesn't need His mom to filter us out or curry favor for us.

We either have the intimacy that Jesus promises and desires for us, or we don't.

Second, asking her to "show us the blessed fruit of thy womb" is something that the Holy Spirit does - not Mary.
You ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you.
Since that is something God desires to do, He promises in His Word that He will do that for you. Mary isn't needed in the least.




.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Mungo,

Your suggestion that Catholics are occultists is grossly insulting and made without any foundation.

This is one of the most insulting posts I have ever seen directed at Catholics and I have seen plenty.

I’m sorry you have descended into the gutter like this.

I thought you wanted a reasonable discussion but I see you are just another-catholic bigot.

You disgust me and your misuse of scripture to insult a fellow Christian is an insult to God, though perhaps with posts like the above I should not regard you as a Christian.

I did not call you an occultist, although you may be legitimately considered to be in rebellion to God's word, since you reject it with such ferocity. All I did, was tell you truth from scripture. Jesus said: John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And: John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father - the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father - he shall testify of me.

You have chosen to come on to a forum where only scripture is held as the basis for essential belief. It would be helpful if you would discuss Catholicism from scripture, therefore.

Jesus Christ Himself said: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 You need to look at Christ in scripture, and you will see new things.

they will either just ignore it or descend into scoffing, mockery and insults

Why generalise like this? I am more than happy to discuss scripture with you. (I've already made this clear.) I am not happy to discuss extra-biblical beliefs, (as I have made clear), for all the reasons that scripture gives.

And, we could discuss scripture's view of extra-biblical doctrine (of all kinds), as there is no denominational bias in the whole word of God, except the teachings of Christ.

I find it mystifying, that after Jesus Christ has come to make it possible for the Father in heaven to send the Holy Spirit to each believer, that praying in the Spirit would not be your chosen way to communicate with Him.

They were offers of a decent debate which dragonfly chose not to follow, but instead chose instead to launch a nasty attack calling Catholics, and thereby me personally, an occultist, having no interest in the truth, whose sole purpose is anti-christ.

If you call an exposition of scripture and extra-biblical fact, 'a nasty attack', your head is in the sand, friend.

I'm not interested in 'debate', unless you are going to use the written word of God as more valid than any other source of objective truth. It is the record of eye-witnesses. Why do you think Catholicism has depended so heavily on people who have 'seen' things? It's to compete with scripture, and bring confusion to any definition of truth apart from theirs. Why is that important? Because Jesus Christ said: I am the Truth. Brother, you need look no further.

You said to neophyte,

Even if you produce a scripture quote by Jesus saying "My mother is the Queen of Heaven"

As I hope you know, the statement above is not in scripture.

By even writing such an hypothesis, you show a lack of honest interest in the written word of God, which is here to bring you right into the centre of all Jesus Christ came to be and do and become, that through faith in His word to you personally, having received Him, you may become all you are called to be, through the power of the Spirit.
 

Selene

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In the Bible, St. John said that Jesus did many things that were not written down. He and the rest of the Apostles knew of these things and handed down to the Church, who also became aware of this fact.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

There are things that Jesus did that were never written down; however, that does not mean that these things were not important. Everything that our Lord did was important. One of those things that Jesus did that was never written down was bringing His mother up into Heaven. This is one of the things the Apostles passed down to the Church. So, why would one be so dependent on Scripture alone when scripture tells you that Christ did other things that were not written down.


So, why is it so hard for people to believe that Mary was brought up into Heaven.....especially when in the Old Testament says that Enoch and Elijah was brought up into Heaven. If God can bring Enoch and Elijah into Heaven, why do you think it's impossible for Jesus to do that with His own mother? Christ honored His mother and therefore, would not leave His mother's body to rot in the ground especially when God's commandment says "Honor thy mother and father." And why is it so difficult to believe that God can create Mary to be without sin.....especially when God created Adam and Eve without sin. Do you not know that the almighty God can do anything and that there is nothing impossible for Him to do.
 

lawrance

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-- It is the "caths" (lol) spiritual position that is the problem. Unsupported, unsubstantiated, non-scriptural claims like this:

"To cause Mary to be born without original sin and its stain (i.e., immaculate), God infused sanctifying grace into her soul at the moment of her conception. Mary was given the special privilege of being conceived without original sin (with sanctifying grace) and without the damage or stain such a conception causes." - Neophyte




-- Jesus never told me to pray to my or His mother. He said to call on Him - directly.

Those that claim that saying the Hail Mary is honoring Him are - to say the least - stretching it a bit.

In the Hail Mary you tell Mary:
- She is full of grace
- The Lord is with her
- She is blessed among woman
- The fruit of her womb is blessed
- You want her to pray for us

The "caths" in this thread try to sell that as focusing on Jesus.

They are still trying to say even though a 5-decade rosary where you say the Hail Mary 153 times, but the Our Father (the way JESUS HIMSELF taught us we should pray) only six times.

Then you finish up with this:

"HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

First, you are asking Mary to turn her "eyes of mercy towards us" when you should be asking that DIRECTLY of Jesus, as He says we can.
It is Jesus' mercy we are to seek. Not Mary's.

What is sad is that people actually think Jesus would deny His mercy because Mary gave a thumbs-down,
("Sorry, I'd like to but my mom says no") or that He wouldn't have shown you mercy without her ("I was going to ignore your prayers, your pleas and pain, but since my mom asked...") I don't think so.

And before Neophyte or Mungo goes there, it matters not what she did on earth in her efforts to convince her son to change the water into wine. His death tore the curtain seperating man from God and freed us to address Him directly and intimately.
He doesn't need His mom to filter us out or curry favor for us.

We either have the intimacy that Jesus promises and desires for us, or we don't.

Second, asking her to "show us the blessed fruit of thy womb" is something that the Holy Spirit does - not Mary.
You ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you.
Since that is something God desires to do, He promises in His Word that He will do that for you. Mary isn't needed in the least.




.
Mary isn't needed in the least ? nor maybe are the Saints ?

But i will say this, some RC do go to far with Mary.

I think the Saints can help with your prayers, and i don't pray to them, but i can ask for there help in depth.
 

Mungo

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Dragonfly,

I was not going to post again in this thread but I cannot let this go by.
You are now adding mendacity to insults.

I did not call you an occultist, although you may be legitimately considered to be in rebellion to God's word, since you reject it with such ferocity.

Oh yes you did. There was no-one else discussion Mary as Queen of Heavn for you to direct that nasty remark to

All I did, was tell you truth from scripture.

No you didn’t. You deployed a particularly specious form of argument that runs on this format.

You are an occultist/apostate/ idolater/ adulterer/ or whatever is the particular charge
The Bible condemns occultism/ apostasy/ idolatry/ adultery/or whatever is the particular charge.

That is then followed by a spate of scripture to show that the Bible condemns occultism/ apostasy/ idolatry/ adultery/or whatever

You have chosen to come on to a forum where only scripture is held as the basis for essential belief. It would be helpful if you would discuss Catholicism from scripture, therefore.

There is nothing in the rules or SOF to say only scripture is held as the basis for essential belief. You have no right to try and impose your personal rules on anyone here.


Why generalise like this? I am more than happy to discuss scripture with you. (I've already made this clear.) I am not happy to discuss extra-biblical beliefs, (as I have made clear), for all the reasons that scripture gives.

No you are not.
I said:
If you want to discuss either of these and for me to show the biblical arguments I am happy to do so, but I suggest we start with either Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mary as the New Eve. Both topics will have enough side issues of their own.

You ignored my offer and launched into an attack on me,.
 

Foreigner

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Mary isn't needed in the least ? nor maybe are the Saints ?

But i will say this, some RC do go to far with Mary.

I think the Saints can help with your prayers, and i don't pray to them, but i can ask for there help in depth.

-- If Scripture is to be believed and Jesus loves me intimately, loved me enough to die for me, longs to speak with me, and is sitting at the right hand of The Father as my intercessor, then why would I need to speak to Mary or 'the saints?'

What exactly and specifically would they need to "grease the wheels" for me about ahead of time?

Jesus already knows my innermost thoughts, my fears, my real motivation, and whether I am praying in His will even before I get on my knees.

I have the Holy Spirit inside me and have been told that if I approach God humbly, with sincere praise and heartfelt thanks, He will give full attention. Period.

In praying to Mary, the implication is that somehow Jesus may give attention to our prayers that He wouldn't normally have given if we hadn't gone through her first. That is ridiculous.

And by implication, if our prayers to Mary fall short of her standards, she would not intercede for us with Jesus. Again, ridiculous.
 

aspen

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-- If Scripture is to be believed and Jesus loves me intimately, loved me enough to die for me, longs to speak with me, and is sitting at the right hand of The Father as my intercessor, then why would I need to speak to Mary or 'the saints?'

What exactly and specifically would they need to "grease the wheels" for me about ahead of time?

Jesus already knows my innermost thoughts, my fears, my real motivation, and whether I am praying in His will even before I get on my knees.

I have the Holy Spirit inside me and have been told that if I approach God humbly, with sincere praise and heartfelt thanks, He will give full attention. Period.

In praying to Mary, the implication is that somehow Jesus may give attention to our prayers that He wouldn't normally have given if we hadn't gone through her first. That is ridiculous.

And by implication, if our prayers to Mary fall short of her standards, she would not intercede for us with Jesus. Again, ridiculous.

Since when is God efficient? He could have done a lot of things differently if His purpose was to be efficient! Unless you believe that fastest method to bring the Jewish nation out of Egypt? Using 12 disciples to spread His gospel and humans to manage His church?
 

Foreigner

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Since when is God efficient? He could have done a lot of things differently if His purpose was to be efficient! Unless you believe that fastest method to bring the Jewish nation out of Egypt? Using 12 disciples to spread His gospel and humans to manage His church?

-- I gotta tell you Aspen, I don't know whether you skipped some meds or perhaps have low blood sugar or what, but there really is no connection between your questions and the discussion as to whether or not Jesus needs someone's prayers filtered through Mary first.

And I hate to break it to you, but we're not talking efficiency.....we're talking intimacy.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Selene,

So, why would one be so dependent on Scripture alone when scripture tells you that Christ did other things that were not written down.

One would be 'so dependent' on scripture, because in the same place, says John 20:31

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


And many other things are written in scripture which show us that we can pray directly to God - as Paul pointed out: 'There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.' Therefore, no other mediator is required. 1 Timothy 2:5

Hi Mungo,

I said:
If you want to discuss either of these and for me to show the biblical arguments I am happy to do so, but I suggest we start with either Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mary as the New Eve. Both topics will have enough side issues of their own.

Both ideas for interpretations of Mary, are not in scripture. You can slot a 'Mary' in wherever you find a woman mentioned, but that won't make it true. Can't you just stick to the written word, and read what is said about Mary, and accept that's all the apostles gave us? Selene's idea that what was not written is a dependable source of information, is based on that assumption that for 2000 years, men have managed to pass down not a diminishing amount of 'oral tradition', but an increasing amount. It is unbelievable.

Faith comes through hearing from God. If God did not say it to you, you don't need to believe it.

The way to Bible study is to put away all our own ideas, and read the Bible, check the cross references, and look up the words which we want to understand better. After a while, we begin to see the patterns that God has put there, and the variations in those patterns which also inform our understanding. If the Holy Spirit is in us, He explains things which are hard to put back into words, unless one has a gift from God to be able to do that.

You may not realise this, but people like me who are not Catholics, also have pre-conceived ideas which we received from various sources - parents, education, and, philosophies which are hidden in the education system to cast doubt upon all truth - and God has to correct all our wrong thinking, too. The practical meaning of this is that I can't bring any of my own ideas to Bible study either. And I can tell you that quite a few times I thought a Bible verse said something that it didn't, and I have no idea why I thought that. So, because we are only required to believe the word of God, I can leave all my misapprehensions behind, and concentrate on learning from Him through the Holy Spirit. That is enough for anyone to be doing.

Anything which does not make you know you've encountered God more closely, is standing in your way. Think about that, please.

know

G1097 γινώσκω ginosko (ghin-oce'-ko) v.

1. to "know" (absolutely)
{in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed)}
[a prolonged form of a primary verb]
KJV: allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand


I said:
there are occultists in every visible church organisation

The way you've made my posts into a matter of personal offendedness on your part, only bothers me to the extent that if you don't get over it during your lifetime so that you are willing to be offended for Christ's sake, He might deny you to the Father. Matt 10:33. Would that bother you? Or, is defending Roman Catholic doctrine your main purpose for living?
 
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aspen

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-- I gotta tell you Aspen, I don't know whether you skipped some meds or perhaps have low blood sugar or what, but there really is no connection between your questions and the discussion as to whether or not Jesus needs someone's prayers filtered through Mary first.

And I hate to break it to you, but we're not talking efficiency.....we're talking intimacy.

LOL - yeah, I guess I was distracted because I do not even know what I was trying to say .....nevermind!
 

Arnie Manitoba

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There is one mediator between Man and God

Some traditions like to insert Mary in there.

Then a saint or two.

Then a whole bunch of saints.

And memorize and remember all the saints.

1500 years later they even glue saints on the car dash

And when you try to start a conversation about Jesus

.... they say...

.. huh ????
 

Axehead

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So, why is it so hard for people to believe that Mary was brought up into Heaven


Because there is no corroborating witness in the Word of God.

.....especially when in the Old Testament says that Enoch and Elijah was brought up into Heaven.

Thank you! You just made my point. There is a witness in the Word of God for these occurrences.

If God can bring Enoch and Elijah into Heaven, why do you think it's impossible for Jesus to do that with His own mother?


It is not a question regarding impossibility or not since Christians believe the Word of God about Enoch and Elijah.

It is a matter of integrity and having no hint at all, in ALL OF SCRIPTURE, that Mary was sinless, or that she was assumed into heaven.

Christ honored His mother and therefore, would not leave His mother's body to rot in the ground especially when God's commandment says "Honor thy mother and father." And why is it so difficult to believe that God can create Mary to be without sin.....especially when God created Adam and Eve without sin. Do you not know that the almighty God can do anything and that there is nothing impossible for Him to do.

Again, it is not about what is impossible for God or not it is about making up fairy tales. You don't even seem convinced because you are talking about hypotheticals and not pointing to any objective evidence. Your questions are, "Why is it so hard", or "Why is it so difficult". You create a belief and then say, "Well, God can do anything, can't He?"

Well, I suppose He can so why didn't He get all the Major Doctrines of the RCC in the BIBLE? Did you ever wonder about that?

Afterall, He's God isn't He?

You appeal to people based on emotionalism and want them to ignore all the warnings in the Bible and the voice of the Spirit of God in their lives. Many of us have no witness from the Holy Spirit concerning the RCC's extra-biblical dogmas and doctrines.

Axehead
 

Selene

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[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size]

Because there is no corroborating witness in the Word of God.

You post this after I posted what St. John stated in the Bible? Why didn't you include what St. John stated in the Bible? St. John stated that Jesus did many things that were not written down. So, how do you know that one of those things that He did was take His mother up into Heaven? Why did you leave that out in my post?

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the oldest Christian churches in history that goes back to the time of the Apostles, and both Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that Mary was taken up into Heaven. The Protestants are the only ones who don't believe in the Assumption of Mary......and I'm not surprised. Afterall, all the Protestant churches existed only until the 15th or 16th century.
 

Groundzero

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You post this after I posted what St. John stated in the Bible? Why didn't you include what St. John stated in the Bible? St. John stated that Jesus did many things that were not written down. So, how do you know that one of those things that He did was take His mother up into Heaven? Why did you leave that out in my post?

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the oldest Christian churches in history that goes back to the time of the Apostles, and both Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that Mary was taken up into Heaven. The Protestants are the only ones who don't believe in the Assumption of Mary......and I'm not surprised. Afterall, all the Protestant churches existed only until the 15th or 16th century.

I was going to let your comment concerning the unwritten things Jesus did slip past, but reading this just did it. You ask us, How do we know that Jesus didn't take his mother up into heaven? Don't you think you're taking a leap there? We don't have to prove that, you're the one who has to prove it! The sheer gall you have to give us such a question is stunning. That's what you need to answer, not us. We have the Scriptures, and that's what we stand on. If you wish to stand on suppositions, then by all means, go and stand on them.
You state that the Catholic Church goes back to the apostles. Really? So you're telling me that you believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, with evidence of speaking in tongues? in Jesus' name baptism? full-immersion baptism? allegiance to Jesus' alone? Stop kidding yourself.

As axehead so aptly stated, stop being hypothetical and start working from the facts that we actually have. At the moment, the only evidence I've read for Mary being sinless, or what not, has been completely hypothetical, and some of the reasoning, has bordered on ludicrous.
 
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Axehead

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You post this after I posted what St. John stated in the Bible? Why didn't you include what St. John stated in the Bible? St. John stated that Jesus did many things that were not written down. So, how do you know that one of those things that He did was take His mother up into Heaven? Why did you leave that out in my post?


[font=lucida sans unicode']How do you know about anything that was not recorded? John did not make the statement that he made so that we could venture into conjecture and guessing and good ideas and logical fallacies. [/font]

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the oldest Christian churches in history that goes back to the time of the Apostles, and both Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that Mary was taken up into Heaven. The Protestants are the only ones who don't believe in the Assumption of Mary......and I'm not surprised. Afterall, all the Protestant churches existed only until the 15th or 16th century.

There is a mountain of documented evidence that the RCC started around the 4th century. Jesus did not start a Catholic denomination or a Protestant denomination. The writings of the Apostles contain nothing about what your are talking about. You are believing only what people in your particular denomination want you to believe. How can you have faith on such shaky ground as word of mouth through the centuries knowing how corruptible and greedy the RCC has been especially during the dark ages. Of course most of the doctrines of Mary came way after the Dark Ages, so why would you believe something that has not been doctrine for centuries and centuries?

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX declared Mary had been born without sin. Thus, they explained Jesus’ sinless nature and held on to the doctrine of inherited sin.


By declaring Mary sinless, the RCC created a new dilemma. Everyone who has read the book of Romans knows the Bible declares “the wages of sin is death” (6:23). But, wait a minute. If Mary had no sin, why would she die? Why would she receive the wages of a sinner when she hadn’t earned them?


Axehead
 

Selene

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[font=lucida sans unicode']How do you know about anything that was not recorded? John did not make the statement that he made so that we could venture into conjecture and guessing and good ideas and logical fallacies. [/font]

It was recorded in other historical records. The feast of the Assumption of Mary is the oldest feast celebrated since the Apostolic times.




There is a mountain of documented evidence that the RCC started around the 4th century. Jesus did not start a Catholic denomination or a Protestant denomination. The writings of the Apostles contain nothing about what your are talking about. You are believing only what people in your particular denomination want you to believe. How can you have faith on such shaky ground as word of mouth through the centuries knowing how corruptible and greedy the RCC has been especially during the dark ages. Of course most of the doctrines of Mary came way after the Dark Ages, so why would you believe something that has not been doctrine for centuries and centuries?

This is incorrect. The Apostles went out and built churches through Christ. Do you honestly think that these churches don't exist today. They have always existed, and they have grown since the time of the Apostles. The reason you don't recognize them today is because these churches have grown. The Church that Christ built through His Apostles started out very small like a mustard seed. Throughout the centuries these churches continued to grow and grow. Today, you don't recognize them because they no longer look like a small mustard seed. Today, these churches have grown into a huge beautiful tree that it is hard to imagine that they were once a very small mustard seed. The Churches built by the Apostles were the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. All these Churches can trace their lineage to an Apostle. We can trace our lineage to the Apostle Peter. The Orthodox Church in Jerusalem can trace their lineage to the Apostle James. The Church in Malta can trace their lineage to the Apostle Paul.....and so on. Protestants are the only ones who can't trace their lineage to any Apostle.



On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX declared Mary had been born without sin. Thus, they explained Jesus’ sinless nature and held on to the doctrine of inherited sin.


By declaring Mary sinless, the RCC created a new dilemma. Everyone who has read the book of Romans knows the Bible declares “the wages of sin is death” (6:23). But, wait a minute. If Mary had no sin, why would she die? Why would she receive the wages of a sinner when she hadn’t earned them?


Axehead

Yes, and why do you think that none of the Catholic faithful protested the Pope for declaring Mary without sin? They never protested because what the Pope declared was NOTHING NEW. It was something they had always believed in.
 

Mungo

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For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5)

If that means that we should not ask anyone to pray for us why does Paul write in verse 1:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,”

If we should only go direct to Jesus, why does Paul ask others to pray for him (Eph 6:19-20; Col 4:3; 1Thess 5:25; 2 Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18) ?
 

Groundzero

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For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5)

If that means that we should not ask anyone to pray for us why does Paul write in verse 1:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,”

If we should only go direct to Jesus, why does Paul ask others to pray for him (Eph 6:19-20; Col 4:3; 1Thess 5:25; 2 Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18) ?

Pray for him to WHO? Mary? No! Nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to pray to anyone except Jesus. We can pray FOR people, but not TO people.
 

Mungo

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Pray for him to WHO? Mary? No! Nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to pray to anyone except Jesus. We can pray FOR people, but not TO people.

The issue is mediation.

Are you agreeing that praying for someone does not contradict 1Tim 2:5 ?
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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The issue is mediation.

Are you agreeing that praying for someone does not contradict 1Tim 2:5 ?


Luk_11:4 And forgive us our sins; (this is a prayer to the Father not men) for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, He (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.