That is not an answer to my question.
Does praying for someone else contradict 1Tim 2:5?
Just heard about the rosary....
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That is not an answer to my question.
Does praying for someone else contradict 1Tim 2:5?
No. Taking the place of Jesus Christ and usurping His preeminence and authority violates 1 Tim_2:5.
Hi Mungo,
Praying to any dead person is a contradiction of many places in scripture, which forbid various activities towards them.
Jesus taught us to pray to our Father in heaven. He did this through what is known as 'the Lord's prayer', and, through the explanations He gave to the disciples about the Holy Spirit's names and ministries, (John's gospel) before the Holy Spirit had been given at Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit enables us to pray according to God's will.
Mary was born to ordinary parents, as an ordinary human girl with a normal genealogy; human grandparents, great-grandparents (and so on). The only reason we know about her, is that she was to be the mother of the Messiah, because she became espoused to the technical heir to the throne of David, and she, being also of the tribe of Judah, was, therefore, a royal virgin in her own right. She was baptised in the Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, and we don't know how she died. We know that Saul (Paul) did terrible things to the early Christians, described by both himself and Luke in the book of Acts. Mary disappears from public notice.
Hi Selene,
That's not quite true. This from the book of Hebrews applies to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 3:1 - 6
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; but Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
In case you're not sure whether Jesus Christ could really be called an 'apostle', here's another verse:
John 20:21b '... as Father has sent me, even so send I you'.
Praying to any dead person is a contradiction of many places in scripture, which forbid various activities towards them.
Jesus taught us to pray to our Father in heaven. He did this through what is known as 'the Lord's prayer', and, through the explanations He gave to the disciples about the Holy Spirit's names and ministries, (John's gospel) before the Holy Spirit had been given at Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit enables us to pray according to God's will.
Mary was born to ordinary parents, as an ordinary human girl with a normal genealogy; human grandparents, great-grandparents (and so on). The only reason we know about her, is that she was to be the mother of the Messiah, because she became espoused to the technical heir to the throne of David, and she, being also of the tribe of Judah, was, therefore, a royal virgin in her own right. She was baptised in the Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, and we don't know how she died. We know that Saul (Paul) did terrible things to the early Christians, described by both himself and Luke in the book of Acts. Mary disappears from public notice.
Hi Selene,
That's not quite true. This from the book of Hebrews applies to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 3:1 - 6
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; but Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
In case you're not sure whether Jesus Christ could really be called an 'apostle', here's another verse:
John 20:21b '... as Father has sent me, even so send I you'.
Very good, dragonfly.
We only need to trace our lineage directly to God the Father as His adopted sons.
Jesus Christ made geneaology through men, irrelevent. It does not matter any more. We only need trace our sonship to the Father by the adoption of the Spirit.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Axehead
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Hi aspen,
Serious question: is that what your Bible says?
Mine doesn't. It says they had a conversation about His decease which he was to accomplish in Jerusalem. (Luke's gospel.)
And God spoke to the disciples - who had not been praying either.
Serious question: is that what your Bible says?
Mine doesn't. It says they had a conversation about His decease which he was to accomplish in Jerusalem. (Luke's gospel.)
And God spoke to the disciples - who had not been praying either.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Seems to me that Jesus was talking with people that were no longer living on Earth - that is all praying is.
If praying for someone else does not contradict 1Tim2:5, then why does asking Saints in heaven to pray for us contradict 1Tim 2:5?
Same question as to Axehead:
If praying for someone else does not contradict 1Tim2:5, then why does asking Saints in heaven to pray for us contradict 1Tim 2:5?
Why do you make these claims but provide no scripture.
You claim you want to keep to the Bible alone but all you give is your opinions.
Hi aspen,
The BIble is very clear what constitutes prayer. I'm sure Luke could have called it 'prayer' if that's what the eyewitnesses had described. I have never had any need to 'pray' to anyone other than my Father to whom I have access by the Holy Spirit. Through His word He created the whole universe and everything that is in it. There is no-one with more power than He, to bring answers to my heart's cries. And He does answer.
The BIble is very clear what constitutes prayer. I'm sure Luke could have called it 'prayer' if that's what the eyewitnesses had described. I have never had any need to 'pray' to anyone other than my Father to whom I have access by the Holy Spirit. Through His word He created the whole universe and everything that is in it. There is no-one with more power than He, to bring answers to my heart's cries. And He does answer.
Where does the Bible define prayer?
Where does the Bible define what "pray" means?
For those that say we cannot pray TO another human being I posted the following explanation earlier in this thread (post #227)
We can correctly say both "Catholics do pray to Mary" and "Catholics don’t pray to Mary"
Contradictory as it may seem, these two statements are both true.
The difference is resolved by understanding the different uses of the word “pray”.
Consider the entymology of the word:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Entymology Dictionary)
So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.
If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.
Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)
"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)
Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Iit is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.
Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.
Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God, which is not true.
Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).
The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).
Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.
There he goes again, assuming that volume = value. lol
Call me old fashioned, but when you get down on your knees, close you eyes, and fold your hands in order to speak to someone who is not a human being currently living here on earth, I would have to call that 'praying.'
Especiall if you start with "Hail Mary full of grace...."
But that contradicts Jesus who gave specific directions on how to pray:
"This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name...'"
Apparently, for Catholics like Mungo that isn't clear enough...
.
Call me old fashioned, but when you get down on your knees, close you eyes, and fold your hands in order to speak to someone who is not a human being currently living here on earth, I would have to call that 'praying.'
Especiall if you start with "Hail Mary full of grace...."
But that contradicts Jesus who gave specific directions on how to pray:
"This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name...'"
Apparently, for Catholics like Mungo that isn't clear enough...
.
Hi Mungo,
We learn what real prayer is, from the many and different examples in scripture of men and women making an approach to God, and, in understanding His responses to them. The teaching which Foreigner mentioned is very accessible, and there are many other exhortations about different kinds of prayer in the New Testament. The topic is thoroughly covered in the psalms, for instance.
Another key to the kind of prayer which God is bound to answer, was defined by a man whom Jesus healed: (John 3:2)
John 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.
And the apostle John:
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hears us:
And the apostle Paul:
Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Here's a good example of a prayer:
Ephesians 3:8 - 20.
To me, who am less than the least of all saints [Heb 10:14] is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him. Wherefore I desire that you all faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you all, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you all might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now to Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
We learn what real prayer is, from the many and different examples in scripture of men and women making an approach to God, and, in understanding His responses to them. The teaching which Foreigner mentioned is very accessible, and there are many other exhortations about different kinds of prayer in the New Testament. The topic is thoroughly covered in the psalms, for instance.
Another key to the kind of prayer which God is bound to answer, was defined by a man whom Jesus healed: (John 3:2)
John 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.
And the apostle John:
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hears us:
And the apostle Paul:
Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Here's a good example of a prayer:
Ephesians 3:8 - 20.
To me, who am less than the least of all saints [Heb 10:14] is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him. Wherefore I desire that you all faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you all, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you all might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now to Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Can you point out any errors in what I said? Obviously not so you try and dismiss it.
As I pointed out very clearly there are several different Greek words which we translate as "pray".
In the quote you give
"This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name...'"
The Greek word for pray here is proseuchesthe which comes from proseuchomai which is used in the NT when addressing God.
Catholics do not use this meaning of pray when they pray to a Saint in heaven.
By not making the distinction you are committing the logical fallacy of equivocation.
Apparently Protestants like Foreigner cannot understand logic.
Another curious thing about Protestants is that they have special Bibles that have extra words in them, particularly the words only and alone. Hence in their BIbles they find the phrases "faith alone" or "scripture alone" that do not appear in regular Bibles.
In the quote above, their Bibles have Jesus saying "This then is the only way you should pray..."
Hi drangonfly,
Those are examples of what you think prayer is. They are not a definition of "pray".
And of course as I have pointed out the English word "pray" has different meanings and is used to translate different Greek words.
You and Foreigner have also ignored the quote I gave from the KJV:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
The Greek word translated here as pray is parakalo and according to a Greek/English distionary means ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge.
This is what we do when we pray to Saints in heaven - we ask/beg/implore/petition them for their prayers for us.
Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise.
These arguments are another example of Protestants attempts at cultural imperialism. Not only do Protestants try to insist that we argue from their truncated Bible, and that only, but they try to insist that we adhere to their particular definitions of words.
Ummm, how about showing me where the heck we are told to talk to people who have deceased? As far as I understood, this was generally achieved through a seance, and God made it pretty clear what he thought of such activity. :/
Ummm, no answers to my points about the meaning and usage of "pray".
But then you seem to make a habit of avoiding the issue at hand and try diverting to something else.
Praying to Mary and the Saints in heaven is not done through a seance so nothing wrong there then.
-- I almost spit out my Coke laughing when I read this, GZ.
I made this VERY point as a seventh grader in Catholic school and was punished. Thankfully, they quit hitting us with the wooden rods after fifth grade.
I pointed out that when you are attempting to contact a non-living being who is NOT God and who has lived as a human on earth in the past, that is a textbook definition of attempting a seance, regardless of the motivation.
I was yelled at by the nun teaching the class, and sent down to the principal's office where the assistance principal continued to yell.
The principal, sent me home and demanded I write an apology to the teacher and students before I would be re-admitted.
My father would have nothing of it and left work to march over to school and lit up the principal like a Christmat tree stating that it was their job to teach me and if my statement was incorrect, they should be able to correct me. Not expell me.
He said that WAS the definition of a seance, and if interaction with the saints in heaven and Mary was different, they should be able to explain the difference to me.
I was allowed to return to class with a stern warning that while in the classroom I was not allowed to speak unless it was to answer a direct question from the teacher.
-- Sure. The biggest one is that you are praying other than the one way that God told us we should pray.
I am always amused in the need for Catholics to repeatedly select a usage for a key word that runs contrary to obvious Biblical intention.
But in order to try to sell their doctrine, they have little choice. I get that.
But when you get on your knees, close your eyes, fold your hands, and begin with the words, "Hail Mary, full of grace..." you are praying to her the same way you pray to Jesus, attempting a supernatural conversation to praise, seek guidance and gain influence.
-- Of course not.
How silly of anyone to think otherwise.
Getting on your knees, closing your eyes, folding your hands and saying, "Hail Mary, full of grace..."
is COMPLETELY different from:
Getting on your knees, closing your eyes, folding your hands and saying, "Our Father, who art in heaven..."
And I choose ignore that official Catholic stance in this thread has now changed from "We do not pray to the saints or Mary" to "We pray to the saints and Mary differently than the way we pray to God."
.
Praying is not a séance. That is just silly.
The example in the Bible that Protestants always quote is the occasion when Saul consulted witrh a witch to conjure up Samuel from the dead (1Sam 28:8-19). That was a séance.
Also consulting with the dead is forbidden (Lev 20:6; Deut 18:10-11; Is 8:19-21). This was occultism
The Church today still forbids all such use of mediums, spiritualist or any other method of conjuring up spirits from the dead, for we do not know what spirits we are dealing with.
But with the saints, those who have died in Christ, it is not the same. They are alive in Christ as part of the one body. Moreover we do not “communicate” in the same way as is forbidden in the OT. We ask them for their intercession, not for them to talk to us. We are just asking them for their prayers and help, though Christ, our one Lord. The saints can aid us with their prayer precisely because they are deeply united to Christ in heaven.
When Paul asked others to pray for him (Eph 6:19-20; Col 4:3; 1Thess 5:25; 2 Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18) do you think he was just asking them to say the “Our Father”?
When he said “First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone” (1Tim 2:1) he just mean keep saying the “our Father”?
No. it’s not a supernatural conversation. It’s asking for prayer, just as I might ask a friend for to pray for me.
What official Catholic stance that we do not pray to Mary?
The official Catholic stance is that we do pray to Mary
“Mary is the perfect Orans (prayer), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,[sup] [/sup]for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. the prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.” (CCC 2679).
And we do pray differently to Mary. I have given you all the evidence. You just choose to ignore it.
What you are saying is that because Protestants define a word in a certain way then Catholics must accept their definitions and only use the word in that way. That is very arrogant.
It shows that are not here for a serious discussion but just for Catholic bashing.
And you are still ignoring the quote that I gave from the KJV:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV).
I realise this is very inconvenient for you but there it is. It shows - from the Bible - that "pray" doesn't just mean addressing God.
Actually this is a very good example of the difference, not the trivia of posture but of intention.
Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
We ask God for what he can give us – our daily bread, forgiveness of sins, deliverance from evil and ask that his kindom comes and his will is done on earth..
But with Mary:
Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with thee (from Lk 1:28)
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. (from Lk 1:42)
Holy Mary, (she is holy) Mother of God (a correct title)
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen (request for her intercession).
We ask her for her prayers.
-- So.....you are attempting to converse with earthly spirits that have since departed. Uh huh..... Seem to recall a name for that.
Still, here is where that idea falls apart. There is nothing Biblical that shows this practice is possible, let alone accepted.
But let's pretend that they can intercede with Christ on our behalf. If they can see and comprehend what is happening on earth, then wouldn't they already be doing that in/with/for all areas of our lines on our behalf without us having to ask?
What extra could they then do for us if we asked them?
-- You apparently did not catch the part where the "Our Father" is a collective prayer: "Give US this day OUR daily bread..." "Deliver US from evil..."
As far as "Keep saying the Our Father?"......a person who willsay the Hail Mary 53 times - ten times in a row at a shot - in one Rosary is in no real position to question the idea of "keep saying the Our Father." :lol:
At least it is a prayer Jesus Himself said we should pray.....unlike the Hail Mary.
And requests for intercessory prayer by our brothers and sisters here on earth are not prayers.
UNLESS you hear someone saying: "Hail Larry full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed art thou amongst my friends...."
-- Hmmmm....A human being attempting to speak with a spirit in Heaven --- stay with me here --- is NOT a supernatural conversation?
A mortal, conversing with a spirit on a different reality / plane / level / sphere......is NOT a supernatural conversation?
Wow, who knew?
-- Definition of prayer:
"A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship. b. The act
of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship"
- or -
"noun. 1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship. 2. a spiritual
communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving,
adoration, ..."
-- Mary is not God, a god, and should NOT be worshipped.
-- You've provided no "evidence." only opinion.
In the Hail Mary:
You praise HER
You say the Lord is with HER
You say blessed is SHE
You tell HER the fruit of HER womb is blessed
You call HER holy
You ask HER to pray for you
You are offering focused praise and worship to Mary on top of the request she pray for you.
Jesus alone deserves praise and worship in prayer.
Sorry, but when you close the door to your prayer room, get down on your knees, close your eyes and begin to praise and worship, it is JESUS ALONE who should be hearing from you.
He has already promised that he is right there in the room with you and that he "inhabits our praise," so when you worship He is present.
A God that geographically close, loving, and intimate who already knows your heart and every desire does not need you worshipping His mother before or instead of speaking to Him.
.
But they are alive – in heaven.
“have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (Mt 22:32)
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)
Not conversing, addressing and they are not dead.
It is very biblical to ask others to pray for us.
Why ask Jesus for anything?
Doesn’t he know what we want without asking?
You mean I can’t say the “Our Father” if I am on my own?
Definition of prayer
1. a personal communication or petition addressed to a deity, esp in the form of supplication, adoration, praise, contrition or thanksgiving.
2. a similar personal communication that does not involve adoration addressed to beings closely associated with a deity, such as saints.
I can't reply to the rest of your post in this post. It says too many quotes.
I'll have to wait until after another post.
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