Just heard about the rosary....

[aspen]

What? You can depend on the word of God to give you the correct understanding of anything! You don't come to the word with any correct understanding first. No--you allow God to teach you by His Spirit through His word.


Hebrews 4:12-13 (NLT)
[sup]12[/sup] For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. [sup]13[/sup] Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

What? You can depend on the word of God to give you the correct understanding of anything! You don't come to the word with any correct understanding first. No--you allow God to teach you by His Spirit through His word.


Hebrews 4:12-13 (NLT)
[sup]12[/sup] For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. [sup]13[/sup] Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Ok, I was going to drop this, but after reading this post, I feel the need to comment.

Are you serious? Do you see what you are saying?

Let's say you really heard some bad things about the word 'Jack' (just for a crazy example), some friends have been saying the word in place of a swear word and you've decided that it might be evil to do so.

So you decide to search the scriptures to see what God has to tell us about the word.

The only references to the word found in the Bible for the word Jack is 'jackal', which must mean the same thing because it is in the Bible, right?

Nehemiah 2:13; Job 30:29; Psalm 44:19; Isaiah 13:21; Isaiah 34:13; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:37; Lamentations 4:3; Lamentations 5:18; Ezekiel 13:4; Micah 1:8; Malachi 1:3

All the references to jackals are listed above and based on the scriptural evidence the verdict is not promising for the word Jack. Apparently, Jackals like to haunt desolate places and hang out with owls a lot. The nicest thing the Bible says about jackals is that at least they are not as bad as ostriches!

Ridiculous? Indeed! Using the Bible to determine if doctrine or a little known practice is good or bad when you have no idea what you are researching means or how it is used or practiced is like consulting a Magic 8 Ball, except the answer is not quite as clear!

All rooting around in the Bible for answers to question you do not understand only shows, you do not know Jack.

 

[Justinian 1]

Loving Stone, there is a reason why I went to this forum: to learn. I have already said that I have done mush research to find verses talking about certain things, and I have not found it. Stop hiding in lies and excuses. If you can't find a verse, admit it so that we can get on with the discussion. Either you are tryin to withold information that may change my life for the better or you are lying. Which one?

 

[Lively Stone]

Loving Stone, there is a reason why I went to this forum: to learn. I have already said that I have done mush research to find verses talking about certain things, and I have not found it. Stop hiding in lies and excuses. If you can't find a verse, admit it so that we can get on with the discussion. Either you are tryin to withold information that may change my life for the better or you are lying. Which one?

I resent your insolence. I have been more than gracious and patient with your many questions. I never hide and neither have I any need for excuses for anything. There are many teachings about all aspects of life in the word, and you need to avail yourself of the word and learn. There is no timeclock to punch, so have patience with God, ask Him to direct you and He will.

Ok, I was going to drop this, but after reading this post, I feel the need to comment.

Are you serious? Do you see what you are saying?

Let's say you really heard some bad things about the word 'Jack' (just for a crazy example), some friends have been saying the word in place of a swear word and you've decided that it might be evil to do so.

So you decide to search the scriptures to see what God has to tell us about the word.

The only references to the word found in the Bible for the word Jack is 'jackal', which must mean the same thing because it is in the Bible, right?

Nehemiah 2:13; Job 30:29; Psalm 44:19; Isaiah 13:21; Isaiah 34:13; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:37; Lamentations 4:3; Lamentations 5:18; Ezekiel 13:4; Micah 1:8; Malachi 1:3

All the references to jackals are listed above and based on the scriptural evidence the verdict is not promising for the word Jack. Apparently, Jackals like to haunt desolate places and hang out with owls a lot. The nicest thing the Bible says about jackals is that at least they are not as bad as ostriches!

Ridiculous? Indeed! Using the Bible to determine if doctrine or a little known practice is good or bad when you have no idea what you are researching means or how it is used or practiced is like consulting a Magic 8 Ball, except the answer is not quite as clear!

All rooting around in the Bible for answers to question you do not understand only shows, you do not know Jack.

I find this to be completely nonsensical and insulting.

No one can come to perfect understanding of anything without the word of God. No one has to develop an understanding of anything BEFORE consulting scriptures, either! Understanding comes from God. Why come to Him with preconceived notions that He has to correct anyway? Learn a thing first from Him if at all possible.

Psalm 119:32
I will pursue your commands, for you expand my understanding.

Psalm 119:34
Give me understanding and I will obey your instructions; I will put them into practice with all my heart.

Psalm 119:104
Your commandments give me understanding; no wonder I hate every false way of life.

Hi Justinian 1,

It is so good that you are looking for answers. I don't think you would be here if you did not hope to find the answers you are looking for. You are very young, so you have plenty of time to develop in understanding. God's Word does in fact tell us about all things; but the answers are not always evident to those who have wrong motives. Spiritual knowledge needs to be spiritually discerned. God had hidden His word so that Satan would be blind, and all those who follow Satan would also be blind. God gave us skills in which to decipher His word. These skills are not available to the proud and arrogant, because sin is gained at the sacrifice of spiritual qualities; so unrepentant sinners will never understand God’s intention. You can only understand with faith; and faith can only be acquired by acknowledgment of your sinfulness and God’s mercy. These are not intellectual acknowledgements; they need to be experiential acknowledgments. Without this you will always be blind.

God taught us about aliens when He told us about lies of the enemy; God taught us about abortion when He taught us about murder; God taught us about masturbation when He taught us about lust; God taught us about eating manners when He taught us about consideration; God taught us about gas and resources when He taught us about creation; God taught us about multiple wives when He taught us about Adam and Eve… The answers are mostly right under your nose; but if you are blind you cannot see. God taught us about blindness when He taught us about Jesus and Satan. Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind; Satan comes to blind the eyes of our heart.

These are the choices in front of every person. If you want to remain blind you can; if you want your blindness to be healed, Jesus can. Every single person who becomes a Christian MUST BE HEALED of their blindness. Every single Christian experiences this miracle. This miracle cannot be seen by those who are still blind. It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out; if you cannot see you are blind. You are here because you want this condition healed. You are resisting this process; and many of us did. Trust in God. This is spiritual food; and here you must learn spiritual eating manners. If you don’t, you get no food. You are in the right place to get the help you need, and I am sure anyone here would be delighted to teach you more about the God we know and love.

God Bless
Steve

Thanks, Steve. I tried to tell him that in not as many words, but...

.

 

[Justinian 1]

Lively stone, you are the insolent one here. I have told you that I have indeed looked up all the subjects I mentioned, but of course you ignore that part. Are you sure that you actually have verses that talk about EVERYTHING?

 

[aspen]

I find this to be completely nonsensical and insulting.

No one can come to perfect understanding of anything without the word of God. No one has to develop an understanding of anything BEFORE consulting scriptures, either! Understanding comes from God. Why come to Him with preconceived notions that He has to correct anyway? Learn a thing first from Him if at all possible.

Psalm 119:32
I will pursue your commands, for you expand my understanding.

Psalm 119:34
Give me understanding and I will obey your instructions; I will put them into practice with all my heart.

Psalm 119:104
Your commandments give me understanding; no wonder I hate every false way of life.

I am sorry you feel insulted. I apologize. I was just so shocked by the way you use the Bible - honestly, it blows me away; but to each their own, I suppose.

As for me, I will continue to make sure I understand other people's practices as much as possible before I use the Bible to condemn them.

Whether it is a Jewish Bar Mitzvah or a Hindu Vedic rites of fire-oblation - being a Christian does not mean we are banned from learning about the world we live in.

BTW, I am much more interested in discovering how a practice or belief works than determining whether or not it fits into a Biblical view of the world.

Steve, I really like your post to Justin. Justin, I am really impressed with your seeking mind - I was just waking ip to Christianity at your age - you are really in a great position to learn.

 

[Lively Stone]

Lively stone, you are the insolent one here. I have told you that I have indeed looked up all the subjects I mentioned, but of course you ignore that part. Are you sure that you actually have verses that talk about EVERYTHING?

There are many 'subjects' that we cannot look up, but we can ask God about what we want to know and let Him show us the answers in His word. I have done that and He has come through for me. the Bible is a library of many books of different kinds and styles that touch upon everything we shall ever need to know about life, but one thing it isn't is a ready-to-use encyclopedia.

 

[marksman]

If you are interested in learning about the rosary from a Catholic - let me know. I wouldn't go to a Mormon to learn about Sola Scriptura because they have no idea what it is all about besides their own prejudices.

When I want to know something I go to all sorts of people, not just those that are biased.

Who said it is necessary?

Roman Catholic teaching that gives the impression that you gain brownie points by saying it.

Finally, the meditation of the Rosary that Catholics are sharing with Mary is on the life and ministry and death and resurrection of Christ.

Pity she can’t hear a word of it like everyone else who is dead.

Hmm - so does that mean we need to re-evaluate the canon of scripture too? How about the Creeds of the Early Church? Doctrine of the Incarnation? Church on Sunday? Sola Scriptura?

This is what you call red herring.

I think one of the biggest problems I keep bumping into is that Church Tradition and worship and the very interpretation of the scripture cannot be separated. Sort of like faith and works.

Sounds like the roman catholic church.

God doesn't grow tired of repetition - frankly, every word we say has been repeated countless times

What does the scripture say “Don’t heap up empty phrases.” You lose.

Mary is not dead. Mary is the one that 'all will call the blessed.'

Ye she is and I don’t call her blessed. I call her Mary.

The virgin point is mainly about being pure!

In your dreams!!

How about the fact that we are asking Mary to pray FOR US? How is asking Mary to pray for us/with us all about her?

How can a dead woman pray for us? That is a bit nonsensical.

Mary went to heaven.

And………….

There is absolutely no reason to believe that people in heaven - part of the Body of Christ - the same body that Paul rightly tells us cannot be separated from the love of Christ - are prohibited from listening to our prayers.

And there is absolutely no reason to believe that they can hear our prayers, unless you invent fairy stories.

Satan has a hard time trying to destroy the truth of Christ and one of them is Mary that he has to destroy. Then he can go about leading you astray with who Jesus Christ truly is.

I know who Christ truly is and I don’t need Mary’s help as do millions of other Christians. Mary in the RC church is red herring invented by Satan so of course he is not going to get rid of her.

Hail Mary ! She is a Mother of all true Christians, praise the Lord !

She is not my mother. She is the mother of Jesus and his brothers and sisters. Period.

but there is more than one way to Jesus!

Not according to scripture.

Asking for prayers from Christian friends and family is fine with Protestants and Catholics

We never said it wasn’t but they are alive, not dead.

Why do you think that Jesus would reject prayers from His mother or the rest of His Body?

Nice try lumping together two entirely different things. The scriptures tell us to pray for one another. It doesn’t say that dead people pray for us or we are to pray to them to get on the right side of Jesus.

I am sorry you do not like the early church term for transformation - deification.

Sorry that is a RC term, not an early church one as the word is not in scripture.

Jerusalem is the mother of all Christians.

Lol

Funny, Mary was not only a Jew, but the first Christian.

No she wasn’t. The first Christians were at Antioch. Prior to that they were followers of “The Way” and the term “Christian” was given as a derogatory designation.

Hopefully, you will do the former, by researching the practice before you reject it. That is all I am saying.

No, what you are actually saying is that you are an ignoramus because you don’t believe what I say.

also view the Bible as my authority, but it cannot correctly assess any practice or teaching or idea if I do not have an accurate understanding of it.

And the traditions, rituals and dogma of the catholic church which you have made very obvious.

You can not be dependent on Gods word for everything

I can.

All rooting around in the Bible for answers to question you do not understand only shows, you do not know Jack.

And sometimes I wonder if you are one of those illiterate catholics you keep talking about.

BTW, I am much more interested in discovering how a practice or belief works than determining whether or not it fits into a Biblical view of the world.

Sounds like the RC church to a T, especially when it gives the church more power or more money.

 

[aspen]

Yawn

Nice post marksman. Next time I respond to you, I'll make sure to mix up several of your posts and add a few more from other people (without noting it) to make you sound as ridiculous as I can; making sure to sound as condescending and sarcastic, while misrepresenting your beliefs as possible. Then again, I have better things to do.

Save your snarky sarcasm for someone who cares.

 

[Justinian 1]

Yawn
Nice post marksman. Next time I respond to you, I'll make sure to mix up several of your posts and add a few more from other people (without noting it) to make you sound as ridiculous as I can; making sure to sound as condescending and sarcastic, while misrepresenting your beliefs as possible. Then again, I have better things to do.
Save your snarky sarcasm for someone who cares.

 

[lawrance]

Provide the verse which say Scripture is the sole authority ( like their is no other authority for learning about God or salvation.)
Or salvation is attainable through faith alone.
Protestants derive their religion from mere reading of the Bible which they interpret according to their own private judgment.
Catholics derive their doctrines from the Church which propounds to them infallibly the teachings of the Bible and Traditions.

I think people became Christians before the NT was written.
I think it was the RC Church that protestants in the 1600's took the Bible and pretend to possess a true understanding of the purpose and meaning of the Bible.

 

[Lively Stone]

Provide the verse which say Scripture is the sole authority ( like their is no other authority for learning about God or salvation.)
Or salvation is attainable through faith alone.
Protestants derive their religion from mere reading of the Bible which they interpret according to their own private judgment.
Catholics derive their doctrines from the Church which propounds to them infallibly the teachings of the Bible and Traditions.

I think people became Christians before the NT was written.
I think it was the RC Church that protestants in the 1600's took the Bible and pretend to possess a true understanding of the purpose and meaning of the Bible.

Never mind Protestants or Catholics---it is BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS who read and study and comply with the word of God as their authority, and not by mere fleshly understanding, which God instructs us against.

Yes, people became Christians befroe the New Testament was written. We in this era are SO BLESSED to have the bible and 20/20 hindsight of all that has gone before us!

Blaming the reformation for anything negative is a false stance. Holy Spirit commandeered that reformation to break the hold of the RCC on the world's hearts and minds for salvation and truth, freeing all people up (the RCC also!) to know Him personally through the personal study of God's holy word, and embarking on a personal journey into true intimacy with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Protestants derive their religion from mere reading of the Bible which they interpret according to their own private judgment.
Catholics derive their doctrines from the Church which propounds to them infallibly the teachings of the Bible and Traditions.

While I'm certain that's true for many Protestants; to make such a sweeping, blanket statement is gross error. Those of us who are obedient to God don't merely read the bible and make private, unilateral decisions based on our own understanding, We have the living witness of the holy spirit; the same who moved men to write scripture. It is reliance on a living voice, not on dead tradition.

Knowing this foremost, that all prophecy of scripture didn't come into being of its own explanation; for prophecy was not brought at any time by the will of man, but men spoke from God by holy spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21​

What do you mean by biblical infallibility? That the bible is without errors? The Catholic Church doesn't even conform to this belief.

 

[Stefcui]

It is interesting that NONE of the earliest church traditions, liturgies or sacraments included anything about Mary (in the way Catholics now perceive her). The argument of “the traditions of the church” becomes a meaningless mantra when those very traditions contradict developed doctrines. For instance, the Nicene Creed, the Apostolic Creed, the Athenasian Creed, the Edict of Thessalonica, and the Ecumenical Council of Cyprian… do not mention Mary!

The first vague reference is in 431 AD at the Council of Ephesus. Many errors became common place by this time…

Pope Stephen, in approximately 255 AD, had made a law proclaiming that all heretics could be allowed into the church for communion without repentance or baptism. Cyprian tried to prevent this onslaught of heresy, but the Church of Rome used its perceived superiority to over-ride all objections. Pope Stephen had his head chopped off while giving a sermon... This was viewed by many to be a divine judgment for his role in the introduction of heresy.

Many new destructive doctrines entered into the church from this time. Our role as Christians is to sift through the doctrines and determine the truth and merit of our beliefs… not just believe things because someone in authority had proclaimed them. This is true for Catholics and Protestants. We all need to evaluate what we believe in the light of scripture, tradition and history. If we do not, we are more so a disciple of a belief system; and not a disciple of Jesus.

God Bless
Steve

 

[lawrance]

While I'm certain that's true for many Protestants; to make such a sweeping, blanket statement is gross error. Those of us who are obedient to God don't merely read the bible and make private, unilateral decisions based on our own understanding, We have the living witness of the holy spirit; the same who moved men to write scripture. It is reliance on a living voice, not on dead tradition.

Knowing this foremost, that all prophecy of scripture didn't come into being of its own explanation; for prophecy was not brought at any time by the will of man, but men spoke from God by holy spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21​

What do you mean by biblical infallibility? That the bible is without errors? The Catholic Church doesn't even conform to this belief.

I look to all people in Christ as Christians regardless of denomination but i believe we all can grow and what i have come across is that there is a lot of miss understanding's.

The infallibility has to do with referring to the 'doctrine of infallibility' and when we can comprehend this point then we have some reference point to it's comprehension.
Sadly when i was a protestant i had no comprehension to what the RC was on about at all and i found out that the Protestants leaders were in fact slandering the truth and that's a fact and to me that is a work of Satan and i had to come out from them. i am not a RC for other reasons. i can't stand liars and i wont tolerate it at all.

 

[aspen]

It is interesting that NONE of the earliest church traditions, liturgies or sacraments included anything about Mary (in the way Catholics now perceive her). The argument of “the traditions of the church” becomes a meaningless mantra when those very traditions contradict developed doctrines. For instance, the Nicene Creed, the Apostolic Creed, the Athenasian Creed, the Edict of Thessalonica, and the Ecumenical Council of Cyprian… do not mention Mary!

The first vague reference is in 431 AD at the Council of Ephesus. Many errors became common place by this time…

Pope Stephen, in approximately 255 AD, had made a law proclaiming that all heretics could be allowed into the church for communion without repentance or baptism. Cyprian tried to prevent this onslaught of heresy, but the Church of Rome used its perceived superiority to over-ride all objections. Pope Stephen had his head chopped off while giving a sermon... This was viewed by many to be a divine judgment for his role in the introduction of heresy.

Many new destructive doctrines entered into the church from this time. Our role as Christians is to sift through the doctrines and determine the truth and merit of our beliefs… not just believe things because someone in authority had proclaimed them. This is true for Catholics and Protestants. We all need to evaluate what we believe in the light of scripture, tradition and history. If we do not, we are more so a disciple of a belief system; and not a disciple of Jesus.

God Bless
Steve

Christian devotion to Mary goes back to the 2nd century and predates the emergence of a specific Marian liturgical system in the 5th century, following the First Council of Ephesus in 431. The Council itself was held at a church in Ephesus which had been dedicated to Mary about a hundred years before.[sup][41][/sup][sup][42][/sup][sup][43][/sup] In Egypt the veneration of Mary had started in the 3rd century and the term Theotokos was used by Origen, the Alexandrian Father of the Church.[sup][44][/sup]
The earliest known Marian prayer (the Sub tuum praesidium, or Beneath Thy Protection) is from the 3rd century (perhaps 270), and its text was rediscovered in 1917 on a papyrus in Egypt.[sup][45][/sup][sup][46][/sup] Following the Edict of Milan in 313, by the 5th century artistic images of Mary began to appear in public and larger churches were being dedicated to Mary, e.g. S. Maria Maggiore in Rome.[sup][47][/sup][sup][48][/sup][sup][49][/sup]

 

[Stefcui]

Hi Aspen.

I know Mary was a highly respected person in the early church. Her role had intrigued the fathers, and she was venerated and esteemed for her highly elected position. From the 5[sup]th[/sup] century onward this veneration was turned into worship. This was lacking in the earliest church… It did not happen until the 5[sup]th[/sup] century. There was veneration, but no worship. There is a difference.

As I said, after Pope Stephen allowed heresy into the church, the heretics started to corrupt the church from within. Our doctrines started to become infected with pagan ideologies. If you would like to know more about this time, the 7[sup]th[/sup] Council of Carthage had over 80 bishops protest against Pope Stephen for the corrupt doctrines he introduced (see below).

Of course you will find doctrines after this time that support false teachings. A gateway for heresy was opened; and the worship of Mary was introduced by this heretical church. That is not to say that everyone practiced or agreed with these false teachings; many did not; yet they were still called Catholics, and many had kept their garments clean.

I don’t mind that you hold this doctrine, everyone must answer for their own beliefs; but you must be honest when teaching… This doctrine was not part of the earliest traditions; it was introduced at the same time as the increase of heresies (after Stephen). Christians should be given the truth so that they can accurately assess which doctrines are integral to Christianity and which doctrines were interpolations. I am blessed by your faith, Aspen, but you are defending a later interpolation which did not attain Apostolic approval.

The Seventh Council of Carthage under Cyprian
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.vi.i.html

Pope Stephen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Stephen_I

Cyprian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprian

God Bless
Steve

 

[aspen]

I appreciate your response, Steve - you have a good understanding of the early church - I have already learned quite a bit from you.

On the subject of Mary, the Catholic Church has never taught that we should worship anyone, but God. This is not an issue of my ability to be honest, it is part of Church History. As far as your suggestion that I am teaching, I disagree. I am presenting my opinion on Christianity and sometimes my opinion on Catholic doctrine. I do not teach.

I appreciate your links, however, I did not see any evidence of Mary being worshiped in any of them. The Catholic Councils consistently affirm that worship / adoration is reserved for God alone.

I have no problem recognizing that cults rose up outside orthodoxy, based on a distortion of the truth about Mary and all kinds of doctrine.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I look to all people in Christ as Christians regardless of denomination but i believe we all can grow and what i have come across is that there is a lot of miss understanding's.

I reread your post I responded to and now think that my labeling of what you said as "gross error" is inaccurate. I over-reacted and challenged what was probably a neutral statement on your part. I thought I was reading the standard Catholic argument claiming superiority of the authority of tradition over protestant beliefs, But now I think you were just making a neutral observation.

 

[Stefcui]

...This is not an issue of my ability to be honest, it is part of Church History.

Point taken... thanks Aspen.

God Bless

 

[marksman]

"Of other annual festivals, the New Testament contains not the faintest trace. Christmas came in during the FOURTH century by a natural development of the idea of a church year, as a sort of chronological creed of the people.

The festivals of MARY, saints, martyrs, FOLLOWED GRADUALLY, as the worship of saints spread in the NICENE and POST NICENE age, until almost every day was turned first into a holy day and then into a holiday. As the saints overshadowed the Lord, the saints days overshadowed the Lord's Day."

History of the Christian Church Vol 1. p480 by Philip Schaff.

If the worship of Mary came after the fourth century, one would be forgiven for thinking that it was something thought up by the RC church to add to its litany of ideas without foundation in scripture.