Just heard about the rosary....

[Foreigner]

Catholics don't read the catechism the same way as a Muslim reads the Qu'ran, which is not how to read the catechism. No amount of information will alter a preconceived notion. You refuse to even entertain the possibility that you are mistaken about the rosary. So why bother answering you?

-- How is pointing out what the Catholic Church teaches is the actual purpose behind the Rosary - using their own exact words - "being mistaken about the Rosary?"
But if you don't feel inspired to answer me, don't.
If you notice, I wasn't talking to you anyway.

is it required that Catholics be devoted to Mary? I will let a Catholic apologist answer that question.
Devotion to the Blessed Virgin
Protestant Poets and Devotion to Mary Devotion to Mary is so beautiful a practice and fits in so ... doctrine and practice regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, let me state two truths that the Church teaches ... that Catholics adore Mary. (2) Jesus Christ alone is our Mediator of Redemption. He alone, by his supreme

-- Gosh, that's all swell and good, but that doesn't address the fact that what you said the Rosary is for (emphasizing Christ) is completely different than what your church says it is for:

"The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary."[sup]517[/sup]

Catholics don't read the catechism the same way as a Muslim reads the Qu'ran, which is not how to read the catechism. No amount of information will alter a preconceived notion. You refuse to even entertain the possibility that you are mistaken about the rosary. So why bother answering you?

-- How is pointing out what the Catholic Church teaches is the actual purpose behind the Rosary - using their own exact words - "being mistaken about the Rosary?"
But if you don't feel inspired to answer me, don't.
If you notice, I wasn't talking to you anyway. ;)

 

[Mungo]

As usual, my point is missed. My point was that Scripture speaks of ONE mystery. God being manifest in the flesh.

And this one
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (1 Cor 15:51)

And this one
When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ (Eph 3:4)

And this one
This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; (Eph 5:32)

And this one
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; (2 Thess 2:7)

And this one
Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain; they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. (1Tim 3:8-9)

And this one
On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, (Rev 17:5)

And this one
I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast (Rev 17:7)

 

[Groundzero]

And this one
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (1 Cor 15:51)

And this one
When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ (Eph 3:4)

And this one
This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; (Eph 5:32)

And this one
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; (2 Thess 2:7)

And this one
Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain; they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. (1Tim 3:8-9)

And this one
On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, (Rev 17:5)

And this one
I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast (Rev 17:7)

Sorry. I was wrong. Thanks Mungo.

There is more than one mystery in Scripture.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Gz,

There is more than one mystery in Scripture.

Yes, but they are mostly about God's thought and the expression of His thought being revealed, rather than hidden.

There is no named 'mystery' in the NT which will not be completely resolved by God - whether good (like the mystery of godliness, or the 'great mystery' in marriage, and, of Christ and His bride the Church (Eph 5:32)) or, bad, like MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT...

And the one thing there is no mystery about any more, is, knowing God and His will, through Jesus Christ our Lord, by the Spirit.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] to you.

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say to you, Whatever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you.

24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time comes, when I shall no more speak to you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26, 27 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not to you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father himself loves you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by these things have I spoken to you, that in me ye might have peace.

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[epostle1]

Hi Gz,



Yes, but they are mostly about God's thought and the expression of His thought being revealed, rather than hidden.

There is no named 'mystery' in the NT which will not be completely resolved by God - whether good (like the mystery of godliness, or the 'great mystery' in marriage, and, of Christ and His bride the Church (Eph 5:32)) or, bad, like MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT...

And the one thing there is no mystery about any more, is, knowing God and His will, through Jesus Christ our Lord, by the Spirit.

Please go back one page to post #418, or scroll up to post # 422. It seems you missed the explanation of what mystery means. Or maybe it's too long and boring to read. But you are not alone. Lots of people skip over anything that is longer that 2 sentences. I myself skip over long lists of unrelated bible quotes.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kepha,

dragonfly
And the one thing there is no mystery about any more, is, knowing God and His will, through Jesus Christ our Lord, by the Spirit.

Kepha
Please go back one page to post #418, or scroll up to post # 422. It seems you missed the explanation of what mystery means. Or maybe it's too long and boring to read. But you are not alone. Lots of people skip over anything that is longer that 2 sentences. I myself skip over long lists of unrelated bible quotes.

I did as you requested, but hit the age-old problem of the Catholic church making up its own definitions separate from scripture.

Let's lay 'mystery' aside, for the moment, as plenty has been said about it in the last few posts, and look at 'faith'.

Faith has a Biblical definition which cannot be changed - even by the Catholic church - and yet you are willing to dilute it to the level of what a man can understand on his own, separate from God's powerful word to him, and around that faulty understanding build an entire doctrine which further robs both God and man of God's first intent - that man should know Him, and enjoy Him forever.

Obviously you find this trade-off against truth highly satisfactory, or you would not have spent several years defending it, but, in the interests of Jesus Christ, the Truth, who can be known in all His glorious attributes without compromise, I have to say it really holds no appeal for me whatever, to follow a man-made doctrine which shuts me out in the cold, while the doctrine of God which brings me right into the bosom of His presence is entirely accessible by God's definition of faith.

 

[Axehead]

Did Catholicism Borrow from Buddhism?

According to the Buddhist calendar, Buddhism dates back to 542 BC, making it just over 2550 years old.

"The monasticism and the religious services of Lamaism also present so striking a similarity with Catholic institutions that non-Catholic investigators have unhesitatingly spoken of a "Buddhist Catholicism" in Tibet. Pope and dalai-lama, Rome and the city of Lhasa are counterparts; Lamaism has its monasteries, bells,processions, litanies, relics, images of saints, holy water, rosary-beads, bishop's mitre, crosier, vestments, copes, baptism, confession, mass, sacrifice for the dead." (Catholic Encyclopedia, XII, 409)

Is the Rosary Really More Convenient Than the Bible?

"What book is so convenient to carry with us as our beads? If can always be about us; in going to our work we can take it in our hands, and say a decade; at night we can put it around our neck or on the arm, and before falling asleep offer to our Mother another decade of prayer" (Devotion of the Holy Rosary, Muller 187)

Axehead

 

[mjrhealth]

"What book is so convenient to carry with us as our beads? If can always be about us; in going to our work we can take it in our hands, and say a decade; at night we can put it around our neck or on the arm, and before falling asleep offer to our Mother another decade of prayer" (Devotion of the Holy Rosary, Muller 187)

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Christ is aways with us, He will never leave us nor forsake us. Wherever you are He is, one needs open their mouth and speak and He will listen. What greater love can a son show to His father then to sit and be in converastion with Him as a father would a son, and forget the religious nonsense.

In Al His Love

 

[Mungo]

Did Catholicism Borrow from Buddhism?

According to the Buddhist calendar, Buddhism dates back to 542 BC, making it just over 2550 years old.

"The monasticism and the religious services of Lamaism also present so striking a similarity with Catholic institutions that non-Catholic investigators have unhesitatingly spoken of a "Buddhist Catholicism" in Tibet. Pope and dalai-lama, Rome and the city of Lhasa are counterparts; Lamaism has its monasteries, bells,processions, litanies, relics, images of saints, holy water, rosary-beads, bishop's mitre, crosier, vestments, copes, baptism, confession, mass, sacrifice for the dead." (Catholic Encyclopedia, XII, 409)

Is the Rosary Really More Convenient Than the Bible?

"What book is so convenient to carry with us as our beads? If can always be about us; in going to our work we can take it in our hands, and say a decade; at night we can put it around our neck or on the arm, and before falling asleep offer to our Mother another decade of prayer" (Devotion of the Holy Rosary, Muller 187)

Axehead

Is this official Catholic teaching?

Are we impressed by random quotes from non-authoritative sources?

Do you want a serious discussion rather than just to throw things at Catholics?


Actually these are rhetorical questions since the answer to all of the them is No.

 

[dragonfly]

Are we impressed by random quotes from non-authoritative sources?

Absolutely not!


Hi Mungo,

Are you finally coming round to a Biblical point of view?


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.


Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks to the Father, who hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood - the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell.


Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And has put all under his feet, and gave him the head over all to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


(We see from the above declaration by Paul, how important it is that Roman Catholic teachers should impress upon their people that Mary comes between them and their Lord as the neck of His body. Never let it be said to them that God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have life everlasting. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Through HIM might be saved. Through HIM might be saved. Through HIM might be saved. John 3.)


Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, to him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.


John 1:29b '... Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.




Jesus Messiah - to whom has been given all authority said:

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have more abundantly...

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.



Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by [his] Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..'





Who on earth dare compete with such authority and power? 2 Thess 2:8

 

[Mungo]

Absolutely not!


Hi Mungo,

Are you finally coming round to a Biblical point of view?


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

Hi dragonfly,

I've cut out all the extraneous quotations and left the important one.


To whom was he speaking when he said those words?
Answer:- the 11 remaining apostles

And to whom did Jesus pass on his authority?
Answer: to the leaders of His Church.

And what else did he say following those words?
Answer:- “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

These leaders of His Church are to make disciples and teach them, and Jesus would be with them.

Note:- disciples are not self made.

They do not teach themselves from books

They learn from the ones Jesus appointed to teach them.


Have you come round to the Biblical point of view yet?

 

[epostle1]

Hi Kepha,



I did as you requested, but hit the age-old problem of the Catholic church making up its own definitions separate from scripture.

Let's lay 'mystery' aside, for the moment, as plenty has been said about it in the last few posts, and look at 'faith'.

Faith has a Biblical definition which cannot be changed - even by the Catholic church - and yet you are willing to dilute it to the level of what a man can understand on his own, separate from God's powerful word to him, and around that faulty understanding build an entire doctrine which further robs both God and man of God's first intent - that man should know Him, and enjoy Him forever.

I made no such claim of self-understanding the mysteries of faith.

Obviously you find this trade-off against truth highly satisfactory, or you would not have spent several years defending it, but, in the interests of Jesus Christ, the Truth, who can be known in all His glorious attributes without compromise, I have to say it really holds no appeal for me whatever, to follow a man-made doctrine which shuts me out in the cold, while the doctrine of God which brings me right into the bosom of His presence is entirely accessible by God's definition of faith.

Calling my posts on mystery a trade off just shows you misunderstood everything. Faith without reason is dangerous.

 

[tgwprophet]

I asked a fwew times of Catholics about why Cathoilcs pray to Mary, putting her above God by saying Holy Mary Mother of God...
Each time i was told they no longer do that... but watching on TV i saw that indeed they wtill do. This is nearly the only problem I have with the Roman Catholic Church. See, when they say... Holy Mary, Mother of God...are they not putting Mary - above God? Sure appears that way. Also I remember the Catholics as well do others... lean on Jesus ( or in this case, Mary ) on Sunday so they CAN go about their evil ways delibrately throughout the rest of the week.

Can one pray to the prophets of old or to the saints? I can see it as valid. However, when I pray I pray to God through Jesus, my Saviour, my Lord.

 

[Mungo]

I asked a fwew times of Catholics about why Cathoilcs pray to Mary, putting her above God by saying Holy Mary Mother of God...
Each time i was told they no longer do that... but watching on TV i saw that indeed they wtill do. This is nearly the only problem I have with the Roman Catholic Church. See, when they say... Holy Mary, Mother of God...are they not putting Mary - above God? Sure appears that way. Also I remember the Catholics as well do others... lean on Jesus ( or in this case, Mary ) on Sunday so they CAN go about their evil ways delibrately throughout the rest of the week.

Can one pray to the prophets of old or to the saints? I can see it as valid. However, when I pray I pray to God through Jesus, my Saviour, my Lord.

terry,

why do you think that Mary being the mother of God is putting her above GOd?

Put simply:-
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the mother of God

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition of Ephesus was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human - were united in one divine person.

If we do not accept that what Jesus did and experienced in his humanity was experienced by God (the Son) then we cannot say that God died on the cross and we are not redeemed; we cannot say that God shed his blood for us and our sins are not forgiven.

 

[epostle1]

I asked a fwew times of Catholics about why Cathoilcs pray to Mary, putting her above God by saying Holy Mary Mother of God...
Each time i was told they no longer do that... but watching on TV i saw that indeed they wtill do. This is nearly the only problem I have with the Roman Catholic Church. See, when they say... Holy Mary, Mother of God...are they not putting Mary - above God? Sure appears that way. Also I remember the Catholics as well do others... lean on Jesus ( or in this case, Mary ) on Sunday so they CAN go about their evil ways delibrately throughout the rest of the week.

Can one pray to the prophets of old or to the saints? I can see it as valid. However, when I pray I pray to God through Jesus, my Saviour, my Lord.

Mother of God comes right out of the Bible. Luke 1:42 Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit, so she is not about to utter an opinion.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures). Mary is NOT above God in any way. Mary does not give birth to the Father. She gives birth to the Divine Logos.

Catholics were using the term over 100 years before the heresiarch Nestorius came along. He objected to the term the same as you. He taught a disunity between Jesus as God and Jesus as man. "Mother of God" is really a sloppy translation of the Greek "Theotokos" which means "God-bearer", so the Early Church Fathers held a council (Ephesis) to settle the dispute, and defended the Incarnation by making the term "mother of God" official. There is nothing wrong with it once you understand the history and reasons behind it. It's wrong to leave the Incarnation out of the picture when talking about Mary, the Mother of God, because in truth, the focus is on the Incarnation. That is what the title affirms.

"After this, we receive the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the first-fruits; Who bore a Body, in truth, not in semblance, derived from Mary the mother of God in the fullness of time sojourning among the race, for the remission of sins: who was crucified and died, yet for all this suffered no diminution of His Godhead."​

Alexander of Alexandria, Epistle to Alexander, 12 (A.D. 324).​

see pics here​

REDEEMER IN THE WOMB​

She is the mother of Jesus, who is God. Mothers don't give birth to natures, they give birth to persons. Jesus is a Person, fully God and fully man. Jesus is God, and Jesus is his mother. That is what we mean by "Mother of God". If all you can see is Mary in the pics in the link, then there is nothing I can say that will help you.

 

[lawrance]

I asked a fwew times of Catholics about why Cathoilcs pray to Mary, putting her above God by saying Holy Mary Mother of God...
Each time i was told they no longer do that... but watching on TV i saw that indeed they wtill do. This is nearly the only problem I have with the Roman Catholic Church. See, when they say... Holy Mary, Mother of God...are they not putting Mary - above God? Sure appears that way. Also I remember the Catholics as well do others... lean on Jesus ( or in this case, Mary ) on Sunday so they CAN go about their evil ways delibrately throughout the rest of the week.

Can one pray to the prophets of old or to the saints? I can see it as valid. However, when I pray I pray to God through Jesus, my Saviour, my Lord.

I was lead to believe this rubbish to by slandering prot's and believed them as the so called RC wogs i dealt with in my work were seen to be by me, as just like you say. "go about their evil ways deliberately" then on Sunday the total morons were forgiven. so the low life would have no qualms in trying to rip you off or try to cause trouble playing stupid moronic games beyond belief. and i came across this time and time again even in other states. i don't know if it comes from living from their home land Mafia type life styles or what.
I think they would try to conn and frighten or co-ursh you by yelling, ranting and swing there arms around into submission, so as to stand over you. and the fact of the mater is, they had on brains at all. as it was all just gibberish foolish nonsense they were on about on the job site.
So in Australia they got the nick name of Dago bastards.
And i thought that the RCC was just a sick joke.

 

[soupy]

I was lead to believe this rubbish to by slandering prot's and believed them as the so called RC wogs i dealt with in my work were seen to be by me, as just like you say. "go about their evil ways deliberately" then on Sunday the total morons were forgiven. so the low life would have no qualms in trying to rip you off or try to cause trouble playing stupid moronic games beyond belief. and i came across this time and time again even in other states. i don't know if it comes from living from their home land Mafia type life styles or what.
I think they would try to conn and frighten or co-ursh you by yelling, ranting and swing there arms around into submission, so as to stand over you. and the fact of the mater is, they had on brains at all. as it was all just gibberish foolish nonsense they were on about on the job site.
So in Australia they got the nick name of Dago bastards.
And i thought that the RCC was just a sick joke.

Wow, why the name calling?

 

[Axehead]

And to whom did Jesus pass on his authority?
Answer: to the leaders of His Church.

Jesus, never relinquished His authority therefore He never PASSED IT ON.


Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

It is ironic how people who obviously have "authority over others" in a fleshly/religious way and exercise lordship over people, always say that they are "serving" them.

There is spiritual authority that edifies and there is religious, demonic authority that destroys.
2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

Paul was a great example of proper spiritual authority and he did not use it to take advantage of people.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Wow, why the name calling?

He's new. I think he is testing the waters to see what degree of hate and bigotry is tolerated. (in the name of Jesus). But his writing is so mixed up I can't tell if he is taking about Catholics or Protestants. Last I checked, Christians are supposed to have good manners; It's the mark of civility.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus, never relinquished His authority therefore He never PASSED IT ON.


Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

It is ironic how people who obviously have "authority over others" in a fleshly/religious way and exercise lordship over people, always say that they are "serving" them.

There is spiritual authority that edifies and there is religious, demonic authority that destroys.
2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

Paul was a great example of proper spiritual authority and he did not use it to take advantage of people.

Axehead

Giving someone authority under you does not mean you relinquish your authority.

According to your argument no-one can have any authority because Jesus has it all.