JUSTIFICATION: Catholic Vs. Protestant Part #2

[Robert Pate]

Jesus is God's justifier.

"To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

And who does Jesus justify? Jesus justifies the ungodly, "But to him that does no works (religion) but believes on him that justifies THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5. Many will fail to pass in the judgment because they don't believe that they are ungodly. If you don't believe that you are ungodly, you will be disqualified. Jesus said that he didn't come into the world to save the righteous, but to save sinners, Luke 5:32.

There are 1.2 billion Catholics, plus multitudes of other holiness religions that believe they are without sin. This is why they see no reason for the Gospel and justification. Jesus said, "They that are whole do not need a physician; but they that are sick" Luke 5:31. The road to hell will be full of the self-righteous that believe they are without sin.

Justification cannot be obtained through works, laws or religion. Paul said, "This only would I learn of you, did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (Because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" Galatians 3:2. The hearing of faith is the hearing and believing of the Gospel. "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

The basis for our justification is the Gospel. In the Gospel Jesus fulfills God's holy law and abolishes it, Romans 10:4. In the Gospel Jesus atones for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed and now stand in God's Holy Court as perfect and complete in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30.

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?
The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf. God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. 2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf has victoriously met both of these requirements. The results is our justification.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus is God's justifier.

"To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

And who does Jesus justify? Jesus justifies the ungodly, "But to him that does no works (religion) but believes on him that justifies THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5. Many will fail to pass in the judgment because they don't believe that they are ungodly. If you don't believe that you are ungodly, you will be disqualified. Jesus said that he didn't come into the world to save the righteous, but to save sinners, Luke 5:32.

There are 1.2 billion Catholics, plus multitudes of other holiness religions that believe they are without sin. This is why they see no reason for the Gospel and justification. Jesus said, "They that are whole do not need a physician; but they that are sick" Luke 5:31. The road to hell will be full of the self-righteous that believe they are without sin.

I don't agree that there are a billion Catholics who believe they are sinless. I've known many Catholics, and not one of them said they believed they were sinless! Many of them know the doctrines of Christianity in part, but do not know the full power of God to transform their lives to reflect what those doctrines mean.

Justification cannot be obtained through works, laws or religion. Paul said, "This only would I learn of you, did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (Because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" Galatians 3:2. The hearing of faith is the hearing and believing of the Gospel. "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

Salvation is a matter of exchanging our own life and choices for the Spiritual Life of Christ and for choices made in consultation with His spiritual guidance. We consult the moral laws of God not just by settling on that standard, but more, by exchanging who we are as people independent of God for people renewed by God's Spirit to live by the Spirit of Christ.

The basis for our justification is the Gospel. In the Gospel Jesus fulfills God's holy law and abolishes it, Romans 10:4. In the Gospel Jesus atones for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed and now stand in God's Holy Court as perfect and complete in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30.

The Law of Moses has been abolished. But that doesn't mean we, as people, aren't renewed and enabled to make choices. In the event of Salvation we freely choose to give up our independence for dependence upon Christ. We choose to give up dead works done independent of Christ for spiritual works done through Christ when we opt to have him live in our hearts through the Spirit he is willing to give us. We can become new people when we choose to live in him.

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?
The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf. God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. 2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf has victoriously met both of these requirements. The results is our justification.

Yes, Jesus was qualified, as the divine Son of God, to forgive our sins, becoming the source of righteousness for us, forgiving all of our failures. This eventually results in the perfection of our future glorification, which is a life lived out forever in resurrection bodies.

What makes our choice for Christ credible and real is when we display ourselves as renewed people, living by the Spirit of Christ, having received His Spirit within us as a permanent residence. When we thus are renewed and live lives in Christ, we naturally demonstrate the works of Christ in our lives, evidenced by his presence and love.

 

[Robert Pate]

I don't agree that there are a billion Catholics who believe they are sinless. I've known many Catholics, and not one of them said they believed they were sinless! Many of them know the doctrines of Christianity in part, but do not know the full power of God to transform their lives to reflect what those doctrines mean.

Salvation is a matter of exchanging our own life and choices for the Spiritual Life of Christ and for choices made in consultation with His spiritual guidance. We consult the moral laws of God not just by settling on that standard, but more, by exchanging who we are as people independent of God for people renewed by God's Spirit to live by the Spirit of Christ.

The Law of Moses has been abolished. But that doesn't mean we, as people, aren't renewed and enabled to make choices. In the event of Salvation we freely choose to give up our independence for dependence upon Christ. We choose to give up dead works done independent of Christ for spiritual works done through Christ when we opt to have him live in our hearts through the Spirit he is willing to give us. We can become new people when we choose to live in him.

Yes, Jesus was qualified, as the divine Son of God, to forgive our sins, becoming the source of righteousness for us, forgiving all of our failures. This eventually results in the perfection of our future glorification, which is a life lived out forever in resurrection bodies.

What makes our choice for Christ credible and real is when we display ourselves as renewed people, living by the Spirit of Christ, having received His Spirit within us as a permanent residence. When we thus are renewed and live lives in Christ, we naturally demonstrate the works of Christ in our lives, evidenced by his presence and love.

Catholicism is a holiness religion. The salvation of the Catholic is based upon his performance. Council of Trent, Canon #19. "If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema". Catholics are under the law and will be judged by the law and condemned, Galatians 3:10.

God is not interested in exchanging our life for the life of Christ. Where did you hear that? Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20. Our old Adamic nature was put to death in Jesus Christ, Romans 6:6.

What do you mean when you say that we can become new people when we choose to live in him? Are you taking the sacraments to become like him? Do you believe that it is not you that is living the Christian life, it is Jesus? If you want to convince people that you have the truth, then you should refer to scripture. Otherwise, it is just hot air.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Catholicism is a holiness religion. The salvation of the Catholic is based upon his performance. Council of Trent, Canon #19. "If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema". Catholics are under the law and will be judged by the law and condemned, Galatians 3:10.

God is not interested in exchanging our life for the life of Christ. Where did you hear that? Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20. Our old Adamic nature was put to death in Jesus Christ, Romans 6:6.

You just quoted it. Being "crucified with Christ" is our choice to exchange our carnal nature and life for the supernatural life of Christ which is now inside us, giving us a new life to live.

The Law vs. Grace debate between Catholics and Protestants does not stipulate that Catholics generally are "holiness" people! On the contrary, they tend to rely too much on Forgiveness and Grace, seeing themselves as needy and spiritually impoverished.

As a life-long Protestant I recognize that there are a good number of Protestants who believe in "works," as long as they are not works designed to earn Salvation. Even Martin Luther, in his little catechism, posted the necessity of the 10 Commandments as a driving force in our lives. He considered the mystery of Christ the virtue that enables our works to be works of Salvation.

What do you mean when you say that we can become new people when we choose to live in him? Are you taking the sacraments to become like him? Do you believe that it is not you that is living the Christian life, it is Jesus? If you want to convince people that you have the truth, then you should refer to scripture.

We are new creatures in Christ. It isn't I, the natural man, who lives, but Christ, enabling us to be a spiritual man, who lives within me. Much that Paul says are abbreviated statements requiring that we have some background to his theology. These statements are based on real Scriptures--I'm surprised you don't recognize them!

 

[Robert Pate]

You just quoted it. Being "crucified with Christ" is our choice to exchange our carnal nature and life for the supernatural life of Christ which is now inside us, giving us a new life to live.

The Law vs. Grace debate between Catholics and Protestants does not stipulate that Catholics generally are "holiness" people! On the contrary, they tend to rely too much on Forgiveness and Grace, seeing themselves as needy and spiritually impoverished.

As a life-long Protestant I recognize that there are a good number of Protestants who believe in "works," as long as they are not works designed to earn Salvation. Even Martin Luther, in his little catechism, posted the necessity of the 10 Commandments as a driving force in our lives. He considered the mystery of Christ the virtue that enables our works to be works of Salvation.

We are new creatures in Christ. It isn't I, the natural man, who lives, but Christ, enabling us to be a spiritual man, who lives within me. Much that Paul says are abbreviated statements requiring that we have some background to his theology. These statements are based on real Scriptures--I'm surprised you don't recognize them!

Being crucified with Christ is not our choice. When Jesus died on the cross all of humanity died with him. God literally put the whole Adamic race to death in Jesus Christ. When Jesus walked out of Josephs new tomb our new humanity walked out with him. All that have faith in Christ are a part of God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

A holiness person is one that is trusting in their works and in their obedience to the law for their salvation. Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what you do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20. The law does not save, nor does the law justify. The only thing that saves is faith alone, we are saved by faith alone because we are saved by Christ alone, Ephesians 2:8. There is no work that we can do that will merit salvation. Our salvation is based upon the works and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Becoming a new creation in Jesus Christ will not save you. This is what Catholics believe. Instead of trusting in Jesus they are trying to be like him. No one will ever be able to be like Jesus, he was without sin. Christians are sinners, saved by grace.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Being crucified with Christ is not our choice.

On the contrary, we are told this....
Rom 6.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

We are not cut off from God's grace by our sin, but because of Christ's grace we are enabled to do righteousness, to overcome our sin tendencies. By the grace of Christ we are able to count our old record dead and gone, and to enter into Christ in good standing, embarking on a new life of righteousness that cannot be disqualified due to sin.

God's spiritual nature has always been made available to Man, despite his Sin Nature. By enjoying covenant relationship with God through the Law Israel was able to enjoy a spiritual nature even though they did not qualify for Eternal Life. But now that Christ has died for our sin, and has forgiven us, we may enter into his spiritual nature without blame, being completely forgiven and invited to enter into the hope of immortality free of sin.

When Jesus died on the cross all of humanity died with him. God literally put the whole Adamic race to death in Jesus Christ. When Jesus walked out of Josephs new tomb our new humanity walked out with him. All that have faith in Christ are a part of God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

That's not the idea there, as I see it. Christ was establishing the basis for a "New Man," such that all who choose to enter into him can do so and enjoy Eternal Life. Not all men enter into this! Christ made Eternal Life available for all men, but not all men would choose to take Christ up on his offer. We do, in fact, choose for or against Christ.

John 7.17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

A holiness person is one that is trusting in their works and in their obedience to the law for their salvation.

No, a "holiness person" is someone who believes that we obtain an entirely new nature when we receive Christ that is so pure that it reflects the sinless Christ himself. At least that is the historical definition, even though you may wish to define it differently or use the same terms in an entirely different context.

Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what you do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20. The law does not save, nor does the law justify. The only thing that saves is faith alone, we are saved by faith alone because we are saved by Christ alone, Ephesians 2:8. There is no work that we can do that will merit salvation. Our salvation is based upon the works and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Becoming a new creation in Jesus Christ will not save you. This is what Catholics believe. Instead of trusting in Jesus they are trying to be like him. No one will ever be able to be like Jesus, he was without sin. Christians are sinners, saved by grace.

You're making quite a few errors here. Both Catholics and Protestants alike believe we are sinners, saved by grace. And both Catholics and Protestants believe we can do good works in Christ. But becoming a new creation in Christ is precisely what saves us! This is what the Bible teaches.

2 Cor 5.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[Robert Pate]

On the contrary, we are told this....
Rom 6.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

We are not cut off from God's grace by our sin, but because of Christ's grace we are enabled to do righteousness, to overcome our sin tendencies. By the grace of Christ we are able to count our old record dead and gone, and to enter into Christ in good standing, embarking on a new life of righteousness that cannot be disqualified due to sin.

God's spiritual nature has always been made available to Man, despite his Sin Nature. By enjoying covenant relationship with God through the Law Israel was able to enjoy a spiritual nature even though they did not qualify for Eternal Life. But now that Christ has died for our sin, and has forgiven us, we may enter into his spiritual nature without blame, being completely forgiven and invited to enter into the hope of immortality free of sin.

That's not the idea there, as I see it. Christ was establishing the basis for a "New Man," such that all who choose to enter into him can do so and enjoy Eternal Life. Not all men enter into this! Christ made Eternal Life available for all men, but not all men would choose to take Christ up on his offer. We do, in fact, choose for or against Christ.

John 7.17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

No, a "holiness person" is someone who believes that we obtain an entirely new nature when we receive Christ that is so pure that it reflects the sinless Christ himself. At least that is the historical definition, even though you may wish to define it differently or use the same terms in an entirely different context.

You're making quite a few errors here. Both Catholics and Protestants alike believe we are sinners, saved by grace. And both Catholics and Protestants believe we can do good works in Christ. But becoming a new creation in Christ is precisely what saves us! This is what the Bible teaches.

2 Cor 5.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

No one can be saved if they don't embrace the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Catholics have perverted the word "Grace". They believe that grace means something that God does in the life of the believer that makes him pleasing to God. This is apparently what you believe also. The changed life is their Gospel. This doctrine is 100% false.

When someone accepts Christ as their savior, they now have two natures, the nature of Christ and the nature of Adam, who is a sinner. The old Adamic nature cannot be annihilated by the works of the law. Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25. All that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will struggle with sin. Many believe that they have overcome sin, they believe this because they do not have the Holy Spirit, who convicts of sin, they are religious.

If you are trusting in your changed life to save you, then you have bought the devils lie. We are saved and justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, plus nothing. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, which we are all one of. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ, we are accepted only in him and because of him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I find this odd.

Many protestants believe we are justifed the same way the catholic church thinks we are justified.. it is not an us against them issue

 

[Randy Kluth]

No one can be saved if they don't embrace the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Catholics have perverted the word "Grace". They believe that grace means something that God does in the life of the believer that makes him pleasing to God. This is apparently what you believe also. The changed life is their Gospel. This doctrine is 100% false.

When someone accepts Christ as their savior, they now have two natures, the nature of Christ and the nature of Adam, who is a sinner. The old Adamic nature cannot be annihilated by the works of the law. Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25. All that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will struggle with sin. Many believe that they have overcome sin, they believe this because they do not have the Holy Spirit, who convicts of sin, they are religious.

If you are trusting in your changed life to save you, then you have bought the devils lie. We are saved and justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, plus nothing. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, which we are all one of. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ, we are accepted only in him and because of him.

To be honest, I don't see what you're disagreeing with? You say we're not saved by a New Nature, and then you proceed to say we're saved by a New Nature, created in Christ!

The "Historical Gospel," as you put it, is in fact Salvation by a New Nature. That is, in fact, Justification by Faith Alone.

What that means is that we are justified by our faith in what Christ alone did, when he atoned for our sins on the cross. Nothing anybody can do can justify us for Eternal Life--only Christ could atone for human sin!

And so, I'm not sure what your point is? You seem to be saying that following conversion nothing we do as "New Creatures" can save us? But at that point, once we become "New Creatures," we are already saved! Certainly, anything we try to do to justify ourselves as New Creatures cannot further save us, atone for our sins, or redeem us from sin. And we may, by our own self-efforts, do things contrary to our New Nature, and so sow to the "flesh," and reap disaster.

But again, true Justification by Faith Alone is a doctrine that focuses on Christ alone, both for Salvation and for doing right. We live by our New Nature, by the Spirit, and seek to avoid living by our carnal nature which, as you say, we still have. This is a struggle we must continue to fight if we are to be responsible as "New Creatures in Christ."

As you say, many Catholics and even many Protestants do not live after the Spirit, or after "Justification by Faith." And that's not because they have bad doctrine, but rather, because they don't really put that doctrine into practice. They haven't yet experienced it, and are only "Nominal Christians."

So my dispute with you is that you mischaracterize both Catholics and Protestants in this matter. They do not hold to "holiness doctrine" simply because they claim to be Christians and still live "after the flesh." Yes, they do not always see themselves as sinners, needing to become New Creatures. They've learned that from the Bible and from church, but they have not experienced its reality.

We must therefore teach these "Nominal Christians" what true Christianity is, just as I had to learn it as basically a "Nominal Christian" in the Lutheran Church. I knew God, but I didn't really recognize what being a "New Creature in Christ" meant. We are not saved by human works apart from the regeneration of Christ. Rather, we are saved by repenting of our lifeless works and by turning to Christ who regenerates us from within, enabling us to live sanctified lives.

 

[Robert Pate]

I find this odd.

Many protestants believe we are justifed the same way the catholic church thinks we are justified.. it is not an us against them issue

Many Protestants are more Catholic than they are Protestants.

The Gospel refutes all holiness religions because the Gospel is about how Jesus justifies the ungodly and reconciles them unto God, Romans 3:26. Holiness religions are trying to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, John 3:17. Salvation has ALREADY been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. This is why salvation is by faith alone, it is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone, making all religions worthless.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Many Protestants are more Catholic than they are Protestants.

The Gospel refutes all holiness religions because the Gospel is about how Jesus justifies the ungodly and reconciles them unto God, Romans 3:26. Holiness religions are trying to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, John 3:17. Salvation has ALREADY been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. This is why salvation is by faith alone, it is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone, making all religions worthless.

Where are you getting the term "holiness religions," or is this how you personally wish to characterize these claimed wide-spread beliefs? Historically, the term you seem unwilling or unable to use is "humanism" in the Church. Liberal Theology and Humanistic beliefs go hand in hand with what you seem to be calling "holiness religions." But use of the term is not something I'm familiar with at all. Please enlighten me?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where are you getting the term "holiness religions," or is this how you personally wish to characterize these claimed wide-spread beliefs? Historically, the term you seem unwilling or unable to use is "humanism" in the Church. Liberal Theology and Humanistic beliefs go hand in hand with what you seem to be calling "holiness religions." But use of the term is not something I'm familiar with at all. Please enlighten me?

I think from what he wrote, he means those who think they make themselves right with God (holiness)

and not that God makes them right with himself

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think from what he wrote, he means those who think they make themselves right with God (holiness)

and not that God makes them right with himself

Yes, that is a form of "humanism," protected by "liberal theology." But why is he using the term "holiness" when that term is historically related to the Holiness Movement? That creates an unavoidable confusion!

I would agree that any form of unenlightened "works" is incapable of obtaining Salvation or of obtaining merit with God. So that is not, for me, the issue.

He explicitly rejected "regeneration" as the basis of Salvation, which would include, of course, the works of regeneration. This is, I think, terribly wrong or misinformed.

We do not "earn our Salvation" by any works. But there are "works of Salvation" by which we prove our choice for Christ, which is necessary if we are to achieve Regeneration. And Regeneration is, in fact, our Salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, that is a form of "humanism," protected by "liberal theology." But why is he using the term "holiness" when that term is historically related to the Holiness Movement? That creates an unavoidable confusion!

I would agree that any form of unenlightened "works" is incapable of obtaining Salvation or of obtaining merit with God. So that is not, for me, the issue.

He explicitly rejected "regeneration" as the basis of Salvation, which would include, of course, the works of regeneration. This is, I think, terribly wrong or misinformed.

We do not "earn our Salvation" by any works. But there are "works of Salvation" by which we prove our choice for Christ, which is necessary if we are to achieve Regeneration. And Regeneration is, in fact, our Salvation.

this is just another way of saying we must earn our salvation. and is just as the poster was saying

Regeneration is spoken of By Jesus in John 3. ye must be born again. and he explains how we are born again.

John 3: 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

can you tell me what works Jesus required of us to be born again?

 

[Robert Pate]

Where are you getting the term "holiness religions," or is this how you personally wish to characterize these claimed wide-spread beliefs? Historically, the term you seem unwilling or unable to use is "humanism" in the Church. Liberal Theology and Humanistic beliefs go hand in hand with what you seem to be calling "holiness religions." But use of the term is not something I'm familiar with at all. Please enlighten me?

All religions have one thing in common. They all believe that they are saved and justified by their changed lives. I call it "The false Gospel of the new birth". There are multitudes of people that believe that this is what saved them. Ask any religious person what is the basis for your salvation? They will answer "I have been born again". They believe that it is all about them. The basis of our salvation is the doing and the dying of Jesus, the Gospel. Not our changed life.

 

[Randy Kluth]

this is just another way of saying we must earn our salvation. and is just as the poster was saying

Regeneration is spoken of By Jesus in John 3. ye must be born again. and he explains how we are born again.

John 3: 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

can you tell me what works Jesus required of us to be born again?

As I said, you and this brother are making a big mistake, playing a semantics game. "Works" can be viewed as "anything we do," or it can be viewed as "earning our own Salvation." You and this brother are saying that "Regeneration" or "the Works of Regeneration" is "earning our own Salvation," when it is not!

This is *not* just another way of saying we must "earn our own Salvation!" As I said, true Christian theology, held by both Catholics and Protestants, is that only Christ died for our sins. Only Christ earned our Salvation. Only Christ made atonement for our sins. That is crystal clear, and you would be lying to say otherwise. This is standard Christian theology which virtually all Christians recognize if they are really Christians at all.

So the real issue is, What does "Works" consist of? And that is where it becomes a semantics issue. Are we speaking of works of "Self-Redemption," which pointedly they are not? Or, are we speaking of Works that earn favor with God, which may or may not be the case. Nominal Christians may try to enter Works that are subtle works of carnality, covered over by the illusion of Christianity. These obviously displease God.

But the "Works of Redemption" are quite different and indicate the work of Christ within us via Regeneration. And it does not accomplish "Self-Salvation," but rather, is the vehicle through which we are saved. We are saved by our being Regenerated, by acting consistent with this event taking place. Clearly, part of our Regeneration is the choice we make for Christ and to live for Christ, including the Works of Regeneration, or Christian Works.

Salvation takes place by the "Work" of choosing for Christ. But that is the semantics battle you are fighting, attempting to render "Works" a strict sense of "Self-Atonement," which clearly it is not! One may define "Choice" as a "Work," because the choice to follow Christ means we choose to "Work" for and with him. This is not Self-Atonement, though you wish it to be so in order to fight an invisible enemy.

Now, if you wish to fight the illusion of righteousness, which Nominal Christians often present, then we are on the same side. The Pharisees did good works, which Jesus acknowledged by saying others should do what they say, but not what they do. They used legal acts of righteousness strictly out of dead routine or ceremony to cover over their hidden motives of corruption. Nominal Christians do not, in this case, present Works of Redemption, but actually, are imitating Christian Works, in reality hiding their corrupt works beneath a veneer of Christian Piety.

 

[Taken]

I don't agree that there are a billion Catholics who believe they are sinless.

Also do not agree.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Also do not agree.

Thanks, I really have trouble with someone making such an impossible claim! Have you *ever* known a Catholic who claimed to be sinless, or who emphasized "holiness" the way the Sanctification People do in the Evangelical world? I haven't!

Most Catholics I've known kind of hang their heads as sinners, and lack much knowledge about their Salvation. They stay close to the Catholic Church in the *hope* they will be saved! They tend to have morals, but they do lean towards humanism in some respects.

 

[Randy Kluth]

can you tell me what works Jesus required of us to be born again?

Jesus said that our work of Salvation is the choice to believe in him and in his redemption. That choice includes with it the choice to follow him, abandoning our own dead works of self-righteousness.

We must choose to do right, and we must choose to die to the old man of self-autonomy. From now on, we only choose *in Christ,* ie in partnership with Christ and with his guidance.

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 10.25

can you tell me what works Jesus required of us to be born again?

John 10.25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

The work Jesus required of us for Salvation is the choice to believe in him and in what he represented, which included the works that he did. That means if we truly choose to follow him we are in effect choosing to do his works, as well.

The works we do are not independent of Christ, but are done *through him." We are the sheep of his pasture and branches off the vine. We derive our virtue from him after we have chosen to follow him. Then, when he has come inside us, we are regenerated in our mortal bodies and are able to do Works of Regeneration.

By this I do not mean that we Regenerate Ourselves! Rather, the Works of Regeneration are works done *through Christ* after he has come within us and has given life to our mortal bodies so that we can, like him, do good works.

If you deny this, you are denying the Scriptures. The Apostle John very plainly said:

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Is the Law of Grace contrary to the Law of Moses? It is different, but it is not "contrary." Again, John said:

1 John 2.7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

In John's day, the only Scriptures they had was the Law of Moses. But as an apostle John was telling Christians that they had a new law, the law of living in Christ, so that we can do the works of Christ. That is crystal clear. Jews were no longer to live by the Law of Moses, but rather, by the Law of the life of Christ.

James, the brother of Jesus, also said this, though some Protestants take issue with him:

James 2.18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

No, a choice for Christ is a choice to live in him and to do good works through his regeneration of our mortal bodies. If we are to truly choose for Christ we are also to do the works of Christ that show that he lives within us.

 

[Taken]

Thanks, I really have trouble with someone making such an impossible claim! Have you *ever* known a Catholic who claimed to be sinless, or who emphasized "holiness" the way the Sanctification People do in the Evangelical world? I haven't!

Most Catholics I've known kind of hang their heads as sinners, and lack much knowledge about their Salvation. They stay close to the Catholic Church in the *hope* they will be saved! They tend to have morals, but they do lean towards humanism in some respects.

Sins can be Forgiven, by God.
Forgiveness can be Given, by God.
Souls can be Saved, by God.
Spirits can be Quickened, by God
But uh…if one is STILL ALIVE…they have a Promise of a Glorified Body to be MADE Manifested.

They are NOT SINLESS…”yet”.
Their Forgiven SIN is “covered” (Applicable to the Convert-ED In-dwelt by Gods Spirit, which is pure light, and thus God can not even SEE their forgiven SIN…) And His Word is to no more Remember their Forgiven Sin.

Sinless…nah…not UNTIL they are risen up in a Glorified Body.

I have ONLY EVER heard ONE person claim he is sinless, and it was on this forum, and not a Catholic (who like the unconverted Jews) continually Ask for Forgiveness, Catholics specific (through several mediators other than Christ Jesus).

OT
Pss 32:
[1] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

NT
Rom 4:
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed because their sins are forgiven…
Blessed because their sins are covered…
Does not mean sinless…

An earthling with a natural sinless body? ha!

God Bless,
Taken