JUSTIFICATION: Catholic Vs. Protestant Part #2

[Ritajanice]

No, a choice for Christ is a choice to live in him and to do good works through his regeneration of our mortal bodies. If we are to truly choose for Christ we are also to do the works of Christ that show that he lives within us.

How do you live in Christ..?..do you mean live for Jesus?

How do you do good works through his regeneration of our mortal bodies?

How would we know to do the works of Christ?

Are you saying that if we work , it shows that he lives in us?

I’m not being confrontational...just interested in what you are saying that is all.

As I know that God works in all of us very differently..

 

[Taken]

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 10.25

BINGO…spot on!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sins can be Forgiven, by God.
Forgiveness can be Given, by God.
Souls can be Saved, by God.
Spirits can be Quickened, by God
But uh…if one is STILL ALIVE…they have a Promise of a Glorified Body to be MADE Manifested.

They are NOT SINLESS…”yet”.
Their Forgiven SIN is “covered” (Applicable to the Convert-ED In-dwelt by Gods Spirit, which is pure light, and thus God can not even SEE their forgiven SIN…) And His Word is to no more Remember their Forgiven Sin.

Sinless…nah…not UNTIL they are risen up in a Glorified Body.

I have ONLY EVER heard ONE person claim he is sinless, and it was on this forum, and not a Catholic (who like the unconverted Jews) continually Ask for Forgiveness, Catholics specific (through several mediators other than Christ Jesus).

OT
Pss 32:
[1] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

NT
Rom 4:
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed because their sins are forgiven…
Blessed because their sins are covered…
Does not mean sinless…

An earthling with a natural sinless body? ha!

God Bless,
Taken

Well said, Let's pass this "petition" around!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus said that our work of Salvation is the choice to believe in him and in his redemption. That choice includes with it the choice to follow him, abandoning our own dead works of self-righteousness.

We must choose to do right, and we must choose to die to the old man of self-autonomy. From now on, we only choose *in Christ,* ie in partnership with Christ and with his guidance.

I am sorry, I do not see the bold in John 3, John 4 John 5 or John 6 when jesus talks about being born again to eternal life..

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 10.25

John 10.25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

My sheep.

these are already saved.. they follow Jesus because they are saved..Again, I see no work for salvation here

The work Jesus required of us for Salvation is the choice to believe in him and in what he represented, which included the works that he did. That means if we truly choose to follow him we are in effect choosing to do his works, as well.

but how many works will save us? How many do we have to do.. ie. how good is good enough?

The works we do are not independent of Christ, but are done *through him." We are the sheep of his pasture and branches off the vine. We derive our virtue from him after we have chosen to follow him. Then, when he has come inside us, we are regenerated in our mortal bodies and are able to do Works of Regeneration.

By this I do not mean that we Regenerate Ourselves! Rather, the Works of Regeneration are works done *through Christ* after he has come within us and has given life to our mortal bodies so that we can, like him, do good works.

If you deny this, you are denying the Scriptures. The Apostle John very plainly said:

Actually the works which come out of regeneration are works of being a new creation in Christ. we are new creatures created for good works..

but the new birth has already taken place.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Is the Law of Grace contrary to the Law of Moses? It is different, but it is not "contrary." Again, John said:

1 John 2.7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

In John's day, the only Scriptures they had was the Law of Moses. But as an apostle John was telling Christians that they had a new law, the law of living in Christ, so that we can do the works of Christ. That is crystal clear. Jews were no longer to live by the Law of Moses, but rather, by the Law of the life of Christ.

James, the brother of Jesus, also said this, though some Protestants take issue with him:

James 2.18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

No, a choice for Christ is a choice to live in him and to do good works through his regeneration of our mortal bodies. If we are to truly choose for Christ we are also to do the works of Christ that show that he lives within us.

1st. All these things are not requirements to be saved, they are a result of being saved.

like most legalistic christians, they sadly follow the path of the Jews. who paul called accursed. and fools.

why? they thought they began in the spirit (faith) but perfected that faith by works.

When you mix works of sanctification and make them required for justification. you in effect cancel grace. and make it null and void..

as for james. I do not take issue with him at all. He was not written to a legalist such as the catholic church, Paul wrote to them, James wrote to the licentious people. Hearers only not doers. people who CLAIMED TO have faith. but in the end, their faith was dead.

James did not make a claim that works save us, He made the claim that those who are truly saved WILL (not Might) do works. and these works. justify their faith, that it was real..

James did not contradict paul in romans 4. As a catholic. You need to focus on Rom 4. as it was written to you

 

[Randy Kluth]

How do you live in Christ..?..do you mean live for Jesus?

How do you do good works through his regeneration of our mortal bodies?

How would we know to do the works of Christ?

Are you saying that if we work , it shows that he lives in us?

I’m not being confrontational...just interested in what you are saying that is all.

As I know that God works in all of us very differently..

I'm not offended. I can usually tell a good spirit from a bad spirit, Christian or not, agreeing with me or not. And I just don't find sincere questions offensive at all, even if you disagree with me. I wish to always be correctable, in case I've misunderstood Scripture or truth or God, etc.

But the Scripture quotations I've been using are standard fare for evangelicals, or "born agains." Those who believe in the Protestant concept of being "born again" are basing their belief on Jesus' statement to Nicodemus and on Peter's writings in which he claims we are, as either saints or Christians, "regenerated." Here it is:

John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

Keep in mind that Jesus is saying this to a *Jew in the OT era, under the Law!* Being "born again" is being spiritually alive to God or in a spiritual, covenantal relationship with God. Whether this is under the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, or no covenant at all, walking with God means to be alive to God spiritually, embracing Him as Lord and walking in a way consistent with that relationship.

1 Peter 1.3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time...
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Please note that Peter here emphasizes that our final salvation remains for when we "get to heaven," when we are raised from the dead and given new glorified bodies. But at present there is a spiritual operation taking place *through our faith,* because Christ is shielding us and we are obeying the truth and loving our brethren. Paul called this, "Christ in us, the hope of glory" (Col 1.27).

Paul said it this way:
Titus 3.5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

The fact we are not yet there, in glory, is significant because Grace is based on the reality that we remain sinners by nature, if we do not appeal to the new spiritual nature that Christ gives us. Our mortal bodies are dead in sin, which means that legally, we are condemned by our sinful tendencies and acts.

On the other hand, Paul said that even though we still have a Sin Nature Grace oeprates in us through our choice to embrace Christ within, allowing ourselves to be regenerated spiritually. Paul indicated this is God giving our mortal bodies new spiritual life:

Rom 8.11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

 

[Taken]

I am sorry, I do not see the bold in John 3, John 4 John 5 or John 6 when jesus talks about being born again to eternal life..

My sheep.

these are already saved.. they follow Jesus because they are saved..Again, I see no work for salvation here

but how many works will save us? How many do we have to do.. ie. how good is good enough?

Actually the works which come out of regeneration are works of being a new creation in Christ. we are new creatures created for good works..

but the new birth has already taken place.

1st. All these things are not requirements to be saved, they are a result of being saved.

like most legalistic christians, they sadly follow the path of the Jews. who paul called accursed. and fools.

why? they thought they began in the spirit (faith) but perfected that faith by works.

When you mix works of sanctification and make them required for justification. you in effect cancel grace. and make it null and void..

as for james. I do not take issue with him at all. He was not written to a legalist such as the catholic church, Paul wrote to them, James wrote to the licentious people. Hearers only not doers. people who CLAIMED TO have faith. but in the end, their faith was dead.

James did not make a claim that works save us, He made the claim that those who are truly saved WILL (not Might) do works. and these works. justify their faith, that it was real..

James did not contradict paul in romans 4. As a catholic. You need to focus on Rom 4. as it was written to you

There is ONE WORKS unto Salvation…
The mans CHOICE to heartfully Believe, in God, in Christ Jesus.

There is ONE SERVICE unto Salvation…
The mans CHOICE to heartfully CONFESS his Belief.

Any Works thereafter a man DOES that which Glorifies God, shall be “rewarded”…
(Called Treasures stored up in Heaven)

God is generous, PAYS his OWN “debts”…
To every man whose effort is BELIEF.
To every man whose effort is CONFESSION.
To every man whose effort is GLORIFYING God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ritajanice]

walking with God means to be alive to God spiritually, embracing Him as Lord and walking in a way consistent with that relationship.

When you say to be alive to God spiritually....do you mean being birthed into Christ by the Holy Spirit?

Where our spirit is birthed by the Holy Spirit?

Thanks for answering..I’ve only asked this one question, as I’m very tired...plus I want to understand what is being said, so that I can take it all in, as I know many of us learn about God differently, if that makes sense.

I will study the rest of your post tomorrow Randy. any questions I will get back to you.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer...God Bless, see you tomorrow.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I am sorry, I do not see the bold in John 3, John 4 John 5 or John 6 when jesus talks about being born again to eternal life..

Nevertheless, it is there. Jesus was shocked that Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel, did not see it either. Where is the following in Jesus' Discourse to Nicodemus? I said:

That choice includes with it the choice to follow him, abandoning our own dead works of self-righteousness.
We must choose to do right, and we must choose to die to the old man of self-autonomy. From now on, we only choose *in Christ,* ie in partnership with Christ and with his guidance.

Nicodemus recognized in Jesus something uniquely qualifying to make him a teacher sent from God:

"For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

This relationship Jesus had with God was apparent to Nicodemus and reflects "God in him" and "spiritual life from God." If you need the exact words you need to do a broader study to understand the biblical language being used.

To be in covenant relationship with God *should've* resulted in spiritual life, and in a true spiritual display of obedience to God's word. Obedience to God's word was intended to bring "life" to Israel. And it was intended to be manifested as a spiritual light, emitted from within our being.

Israel was to be a "city set on a hill," a "light not put under a bushel. Out of their inward being was to flow a "river of spiritual water." Psa 48.2; Matt 5.14-16; John 7.38. This living water speaks of the refreshing waters that heal or cleanse in Ezekiel's vision of the temple. Eze 47.

Under the Law God allowed no other gods. This meant that human independence from God was a form of spiritual adultery. Again, this is ubiquitous in the word of God. Independent actions, such as carried out by King Saul, were regularly condemned in Scriptures.

1 Sam 15.11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.”

My sheep.

these are already saved.. they follow Jesus because they are saved..Again, I see no work for salvation here

What I said is that Men do not Save themselves. They do not Self-Regenerate. We do not do the work of Atonement. We choose to embrace that Atonement, which includes receiving Christ as our regenerating power within, along with the works that he wishes to do within us.

but how many works will save us? How many do we have to do.. ie. how good is good enough?

Actually the works which come out of regeneration are works of being a new creation in Christ. we are new creatures created for good works..

What do you think I've been saying?

but the new birth has already taken place.

The word "Work" is being semantically confused. Jesus said the Work we must do is to believe, and that carries with it the connotation that we choose to live in him and work with him as well, even after being regenerated. We do not *Work to be Saved.* Rather, we Choose to give up our independent life for a spiritually-renewed life. And then, being renewed spiritually, we work *through Christ.* I'm amazed that you do not understand the distinctions I'm making!

1st. All these things are not requirements to be saved, they are a result of being saved.

We must *choose* to be Saved, 1st of all. That means we choose to give up our independence for dependence upon Christ and upon the new spiritual nature he wishes to give us. Then, following spiritual regeneration, we continue to choose to live in partnership with Christ, as opposed to "doing our own thing."

Since you don't understand the distinctions I've repeatedly made here, we need not continue....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nevertheless, it is there. Jesus was shocked that Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel, did not see it either. Where is the following in Jesus' Discourse to Nicodemus? I said:

That choice includes with it the choice to follow him, abandoning our own dead works of self-righteousness.
We must choose to do right, and we must choose to die to the old man of self-autonomy. From now on, we only choose *in Christ,* ie in partnership with Christ and with his guidance.

Nicodemus recognized in Jesus something uniquely qualifying to make him a teacher sent from God:

"For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

This relationship Jesus had with God was apparent to Nicodemus and reflects "God in him" and "spiritual life from God." If you need the exact words you need to do a broader study to understand the biblical language being used.

Yet I still do not see the words..

Jesus said whoever does what will never perish, but has eternal life?

Jesus said whoever Does what is not condemned.

I am still waiting.

To be in covenant relationship with God *should've* resulted in spiritual life, and in a true spiritual display of obedience to God's word. Obedience to God's word was intended to bring "life" to Israel. And it was intended to be manifested as a spiritual light, emitted from within our being.

Israel was to be a "city set on a hill," a "light not put under a bushel. Out of their inward being was to flow a "river of spiritual water." Psa 48.2; Matt 5.14-16; John 7.38. This living water speaks of the refreshing waters that heal or cleanse in Ezekiel's vision of the temple. Eze 47.

Under the Law God allowed no other gods. This meant that human independence from God was a form of spiritual adultery. Again, this is ubiquitous in the word of God. Independent actions, such as carried out by King Saul, were regularly condemned in Scriptures.

1 Sam 15.11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.”

What I said is that Men do not Save themselves. They do not Self-Regenerate. We do not do the work of Atonement. We choose to embrace that Atonement, which includes receiving Christ as our regenerating power within, along with the works that he wishes to do within us.

What do you think I've been saying?

The word "Work" is being semantically confused. Jesus said the Work we must do is to believe, and that carries with it the connotation that we choose to live in him and work with him as well, even after being regenerated. We do not *Work to be Saved.* Rather, we Choose to give up our independent life for a spiritually-renewed life. And then, being renewed spiritually, we work *through Christ.* I'm amazed that you do not understand the distinctions I'm making!

We must *choose* to be Saved, 1st of all. That means we choose to give up our independence for dependence upon Christ and upon the new spiritual nature he wishes to give us. Then, following spiritual regeneration, we continue to choose to live in partnership with Christ, as opposed to "doing our own thing."

Since you don't understand the distinctions I've repeatedly made here, we need not continue....

I understand them completely. I just disagree with them.

Jesus made it clear.. The simplicity that is in christ paul calls it.

yet sadly people want to take what is simple and make it complex and self edifying..

When moses lifted the serpent. The ones who look in faith lived. Those who did not look because they did not believe where already condemned, they chose to reject Gods salvation

in the same token, those who chose to look at christ will live, those who chose not to in unbelief are condemned already. Because they chose to reject Gods salvation

 

[Robert Pate]

To be honest, I don't see what you're disagreeing with? You say we're not saved by a New Nature, and then you proceed to say we're saved by a New Nature, created in Christ!

The "Historical Gospel," as you put it, is in fact Salvation by a New Nature. That is, in fact, Justification by Faith Alone.

What that means is that we are justified by our faith in what Christ alone did, when he atoned for our sins on the cross. Nothing anybody can do can justify us for Eternal Life--only Christ could atone for human sin!

And so, I'm not sure what your point is? You seem to be saying that following conversion nothing we do as "New Creatures" can save us? But at that point, once we become "New Creatures," we are already saved! Certainly, anything we try to do to justify ourselves as New Creatures cannot further save us, atone for our sins, or redeem us from sin. And we may, by our own self-efforts, do things contrary to our New Nature, and so sow to the "flesh," and reap disaster.

But again, true Justification by Faith Alone is a doctrine that focuses on Christ alone, both for Salvation and for doing right. We live by our New Nature, by the Spirit, and seek to avoid living by our carnal nature which, as you say, we still have. This is a struggle we must continue to fight if we are to be responsible as "New Creatures in Christ."

As you say, many Catholics and even many Protestants do not live after the Spirit, or after "Justification by Faith." And that's not because they have bad doctrine, but rather, because they don't really put that doctrine into practice. They haven't yet experienced it, and are only "Nominal Christians."

So my dispute with you is that you mischaracterize both Catholics and Protestants in this matter. They do not hold to "holiness doctrine" simply because they claim to be Christians and still live "after the flesh." Yes, they do not always see themselves as sinners, needing to become New Creatures. They've learned that from the Bible and from church, but they have not experienced its reality.

We must therefore teach these "Nominal Christians" what true Christianity is, just as I had to learn it as basically a "Nominal Christian" in the Lutheran Church. I knew God, but I didn't really recognize what being a "New Creature in Christ" meant. We are not saved by human works apart from the regeneration of Christ. Rather, we are saved by repenting of our lifeless works and by turning to Christ who regenerates us from within, enabling us to live sanctified lives.

Its good that you have been born again, but that is not the Gospel. It is the Gospel of the Catholic church and is a false Gospel. Very few Christians understand the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Jesus did not come into the world to show us the way. Jesus is the way. It was Jesus that fulfilled God's Holy Law and then abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has perfected our humanity and has taken it back to heaven. We have been MADE complete in him, Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion was needed. We had no part in our salvation because we were dead in trespasses and sins. The Gospel is a past historical event, Jesus was reconciling us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. It's over, it's finished, God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ. Colossians 2:14.

The big question is can you believe it? If you do believe it, then why are you so concerned about your Christian life?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yet I still do not see the words..
Jesus said whoever does what will never perish, but has eternal life?
Jesus said whoever Does what is not condemned.
I am still waiting.

We've already referred to it.
John 3.16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

​

Do you see the whole context? Jesus assumes that one recognize that believing in him involves *doing.* What is it that Jesus assumes the one who believes does? He "lives by the truth" as a witness to Jesus. That means Jesus is the light that shines through a man's works indicating that it is Jesus partnering with the man to do the work. It is very strange that you do not see this, or that you claim to see it and yet disagree with it. You say you're still waiting for it, and yet it is there as plain as the nose on my face.

You asked what a person "does" to be Saved? Plainly, Jesus is saying that a person "comes into the light," or in other words, comes to him. He comes to Jesus so that Jesus' light may shine to others as a witness to them. He shows the way to Salvation not just by believing in Jesus but also by coming to Jesus' light, and allowing that light to shine through his works. Of course, you're still going to argue with this. Enjoy.

Just let me ask you this one thing. What does "living by the truth" mean to you? Does it involve "doing" anything, or is it strictly just "believing?"

In case there is any doubt, James makes it clear that believing involves doing.

James 2.14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

[Philip James]

but how many works will save us? How many do we have to do.. ie. how good is good enough?

Hello EG,

"How many do we have to do."

All of them

" how good is good enough?

So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pax et Bonum

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We've already referred to it.
John 3.16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

​

Do you see the whole context? Jesus assumes that one recognize that believing in him involves *doing.* What is it that Jesus assumes the one who believes does? He "lives by the truth" as a witness to Jesus. That means Jesus is the light that shines through a man's works indicating that it is Jesus partnering with the man to do the work. It is very strange that you do not see this, or that you claim to see it and yet disagree with it. You say you're still waiting for it, and yet it is there as plain as the nose on my face.

See you did just what i said you would do

Jesus said he did not come to judge, he came to save.

people who love their sin will not come to the light lest it be exposed.

People who come to the light are people who have him led themselves. Acknowledged their sin, and look up to the cross.

You see where were there is non, Jesus did not say if you believe you will never die s long as you do these works. And you have conditional life..

You asked what a person "does" to be Saved? Plainly, Jesus is saying that a person "comes into the light," or in other words, comes to him. He comes to Jesus so that Jesus' light may shine to others as a witness to them. He shows the way to Salvation not just by believing in Jesus but also by coming to Jesus' light, and allowing that light to shine through his works. Of course, you're still going to argue with this. Enjoy.

there is no argument

He said whoever believes in him will never die. And will live forever.

Your the one stating this is really not true.

Just let me ask you this one thing. What does "living by the truth" mean to you? Does it involve "doing" anything, or is it strictly just "believing?"

Living in truth is to live in your new born again nature.. For we (those who are saved or born again) are his workmanship created in christ Jesus for good works.

but your getting ahead of yourself.. You’re putting works before the new birth. Not as a result of new birth. Its all you, and Not God in you

In case there is any doubt, James makes it clear that believing involves doing.

James 2.14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Once again, James is speaking to people who claim to have faith.

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith. And not of works. Lest anyone should boast. And those saved will do works (eph 2: 10)

James is just stating a fact, if you claim you have faith (are saved) but HAVE no works that paul said you would have after being saved, Your faith is dead.. and he asked the question. Can that faith save you> No

But like I said, you need to read romans 4.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lordshall not impute sin.”

You want to hold onto James thinking it will help you. And reject Paul, who was written directly to you. Thats your issue,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello EG,

"How many do we have to do."

All of them

" how good is good enough?

So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pax et Bonum

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

that includes you and me

By your own statement, You just disqualified every man woman and child whoever lived

which is what God wants you to do. And then repent and come to him.. so he can save you. Because you fall short.

 

[Robert Pate]

Its good that you have been born again, but that is not the Gospel. It is the Gospel of the Catholic church and is a false Gospel. Very few Christians understand the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Jesus did not come into the world to show us the way. Jesus is the way. It was Jesus that fulfilled God's Holy Law and then abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has perfected our humanity and has taken it back to heaven. We have been MADE complete in him, Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion was needed. We had no part in our salvation because we were dead in trespasses and sins. The Gospel is a past historical event, Jesus was reconciling us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. It's over, it's finished, God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ. Colossians 2:14.

The big question is can you believe it? If you do believe it, then why are you so concerned about your Christian life?

 

[Randy Kluth]

See you did just what i said you would do

Jesus said he did not come to judge, he came to save.

people who love their sin will not come to the light lest it be exposed.

People who come to the light are people who have him led themselves. Acknowledged their sin, and look up to the cross.

You see where were there is non, Jesus did not say if you believe you will never die s long as you do these works. And you have conditional life..

And you did exactly what I said you would do. You would deny the facts when directly confronted with them. You implied that there is nothing Jesus required that men do in order to be saved. On the contrary, he directly proposed to them that they must come to him, and live by the truth, as opposed to doing evil.

That is the "doing" that Jesus required in order for them to be saved. They must *come to him!* If you deny this, you deny the Bible. And if you deny 1 John 2, then you deny apostolic teaching. John and James made it perfectly clear. Coming to Jesus is doing what Jesus commanded. It means we must 1st come to him, and then follow him. In choosing him we repent of our old ways and choose to follow him alone.

Do you think repentance is not required for Salvation. You better read it again, unless you reject the Bible:

Acts 2.37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

there is no argument

He said whoever believes in him will never die. And will live forever.

Your the one stating this is really not true.

Living in truth is to live in your new born again nature.. For we (those who are saved or born again) are his workmanship created in christ Jesus for good works.

The points are not mutually exclusive. We can been Christ's "workmanship" and also choose to repent, leave our old ways, and follow Christ. This is to choose to live in the truth. It is the "work" we must do to be saved, not as if we are self-atoning but only in the sense that we are submitting to obedience to the truth of God's word.

but your getting ahead of yourself.. You’re putting works before the new birth. Not as a result of new birth. Its all you, and Not God in you

The works that we must do *prior to the New Birth* is to abandon our old works to do the new works in Christ. This is not a carnal work, but a work inspired by God's Spirit to submit to God's word so that we obey Him in the Spirit.

Once again, James is speaking to people who claim to have faith.

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith. And not of works. Lest anyone should boast. And those saved will do works (eph 2: 10)

James is just stating a fact, if you claim you have faith (are saved) but HAVE no works that paul said you would have after being saved, Your faith is dead.. and he asked the question. Can that faith save you> No

But like I said, you need to read romans 4.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lordshall not impute sin.”

You want to hold onto James thinking it will help you. And reject Paul, who was written directly to you. Thats your issue,

I'm very familiar with these passages and they do not nullify the need to repent of our own human works to follow after God's works. This is the "work" we are to do, to believe in and embrace God's Son so that the work we do is inspired by him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you did exactly what I said you would do. You would deny the facts when directly confronted with them.

Well if you had any facts, and not opinion. I may actually recieve it.

You implied that there is nothing Jesus required that men do in order to be saved. On the contrary, he directly proposed to them that they must come to him, and live by the truth, as opposed to doing evil.

He said they must come to him in faith. He did not tell them in order to be saved they had to live by truth and appose doing evil.

Thats what the law told us to do. And as we know. The law could not save everyone, because the law condemned everyone who even stumbles in one sin.

That is the "doing" that Jesus required in order for them to be saved. They must *come to him!* If you deny this, you deny the Bible. And if you deny 1 John 2, then you deny apostolic teaching. John and James made it perfectly clear. Coming to Jesus is doing what Jesus commanded. It means we must 1st come to him, and then follow him. In choosing him we repent of our old ways and choose to follow him alone.

Again, Your trying to earn by law

Jesus said what is required..
John 3:
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will,but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You want to push works.. Obedience to Gods law. The problem with this. Is unless you are prefect. You are not good enough. You’re still dead in your sin. God did not give moses the law and tell them they must never break one command or they are cursed. Then send his son, to save us, and tell us again, Obey the law, the same requirment stands. If you break one command your guilty.. He is not going to tell us to do what we can not do. Then say that is required to ultimately be saved..

Do you think repentance is not required for Salvation. You better read it again, unless you reject the Bible:

Please tell me where I said repentance is not required for salvation.

I will wait

Acts 2.37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The points are not mutually exclusive. We can been Christ's "workmanship" and also choose to repent, leave our old ways, and follow Christ. This is to choose to live in the truth. It is the "work" we must do to be saved, not as if we are self-atoning but only in the sense that we are submitting to obedience to the truth of God's word.

It is the work of God we believe.

Jesus did the work to save us.. You can’t do anything to cause God to forgive you of one sin, let alone the many we have all commited.

The works that we must do *prior to the New Birth* is to abandon our old works to do the new works in Christ. This is not a carnal work, but a work inspired by God's Spirit to submit to God's word so that we obey Him in the Spirit.

I'm very familiar with these passages and they do not nullify the need to repent of our own human works to follow after God's works. This is the "work" we are to do, to believe in and embrace God's Son so that the work we do is inspired by him.

Sorry Bro.

Jesus says otherwise

He who believes is not condemned, He who believes not is condemned already;

Even John the Baptist understood this point when he said he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe the wrath of God abides in him.

You want to earn your way to heaven, boast of how good you are and all you did. Be as the pharisee and pump your chest. Feel free

I became like the pharisee, poor in spirit. And called out to God in faith. And he saved my, and my trust is in his promise. Not how good or BadI may be. My works are produced by his spirit and my gratitude for what he did. Not by my self rightiousness thinking I am better than I really am.

 

[Taken]

@Randy Kluth
@Eternally Grateful
@Ritajanice

Just sharing a quick review…

Jesus’ Body killed on the Cross presented every Believing man with an OPTION Before that Believers Physical Bodily Death…

It is a Pledge of the man’s WORD out of his mouth, speaking the Thoughts from his HEART… OF a man DOING the WORKS OF God.
Saying he BELIEVES in the Lord God.
* God searches his heart, that that be True.
Saying (is the man DOING a SERVICE unto God) he IS Freely able, willing to give his bodily life unto Death FOR God.
* God searches his heart, that that be True.


IF that mans thoughts in his Heart…Belief, and Confession BE TRUE;
God Restores his soul…called SAVES
God Quickens his spirit…called BORN AGAIN.
God PROMISES to Raise up him AFTER his Physical DEATH, in a new SINLESS, Holy Body, called GLORIFIED.

Meantime…that man with a SAV-ED soul…with a QUICKEN-ED spirit…(waiting FOR his Glorified Body)….Occupies Christ Jesus’ Risen Body….called “IN CHRIST”.

God has SEVEN Spirits. The totality of Gods SEVEN Spirit, IS His Supreme Power…
Called “His” Glory, (Called Christ, the Power of God) which (the totality thereof, He GIVES TO NO ONE.)

God Does GIVE Portions of His POWER to…
His Angelic Servants and His Created and MADE and RE-MADE manKIND Creations.

A man WHO, has Accepted Gods Offering, for that man to CHOOSE TO:
Have God RE-MAKE (restore) his soul unto Salvation.
Have God RE-MAKE (quicken, RE-birth) his spirit (which IS his truth in his heart) unto Everlasting Life (via receiving Gods SEED.)
And that mans Pledging his OWN bodily Life unto DEATH for Gods Sake.
Thereafter Gods SPIRIT OF TRUTH, (who IS Jesus) SHALL Dwell IN that man….Called the In-dwelling of the Spirit of God, IN THAT MAN.

It is a Man IN Christ Jesus.
It is the Lord Gods Spirit IN the man.
(Nothing whatsoever can UNDO Gods Works IN a man having RECEIVED soul Salvation and spirit Quickening.)

Works of God…IS a man Heartfully BELIEVING.

Service unto God…IS a man Heartfully CONFESSING his belief.

Gods PROMISE to raise up that mans BODY, in Glory, is Already Accounted IN Gods Books of EVIDENCE, yet men Wait to SEE with Spiritual EYES, the manifestation of their NEW Glorified sinless body.

ALSO Accounted IN Gods Books of EVIDENCE…IS EVERY Act, every work, a man DOES, that which GLORIFIES God and His Great Name.
God Becomes indebted to a man WHO Glorifies the Lord God BEFORE other men.
And God PAYS those Debts with REWARDS which He gives to men … WHEN CHRIST the LORD JESUS Returns.

And WHAT ABOUT…ALL the “works” / “acts” that men DO…that DO NOT Glorify God?
They Are Burned, Forgotten.

Remembering…IF your SOUL is SAV-ed, IF your SPIRIT is Born again ie QUICKEN-ED… (You are ALREADY SEPARATED unto the Lord God….called Sanctified…ie SET APART) and
while you are still in your FORGIVEN natural Flesh, YOU ARE residing IN Christ Jesus’ risen Body, and have all Authority to SPEAK as JESUS spoke, spreading the TRUTH of God to any willing listener.

Will you STILL experience tribulations, hardships, being lied to, being cheated, being threatened, being bullied, being wrongly accused, attempted to be silenced, have sorrows maybe even being killed…
BY ACTS OF MEN? YUP!

Ya, ya, the WORLD will tell you…turn to medications, to psychologists, to lawyers, to governments, maybe to clerics….

Remember YOUR COMFORTER is WITH-IN you…Christ. Turn to Him for Comfort and He will not fail you. He is ALL knowing. Knows your plights, Knows your needs, and IS the Provider.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well if you had any facts, and not opinion. I may actually recieve it.

I stated the facts, and again you deny them!
The "doing" required in our Salvation is contained in the passage in question. In John 3 Jesus states what is required--we must meet the criteria given in this verse:

John 3.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

We must:
1) come into the light (Jesus).
2) show that what we do is done in the sight of God (though Jesus).

In order to show that what we've done was done in the sight of God we must actually *do something!*

He said they must come to him in faith. He did not tell them in order to be saved they had to live by truth and appose doing evil.

That's false. That's exactly what he said. He said this:
John 3.19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

You shouldn't fault me because you wish to deny what is explicitly written! Jesus is giving people a choice, to refuse to come into the light or to come into the light. To choose to come into the light is by default a choice to live by the truth and to oppose doing evil.

Thats what the law told us to do. And as we know. The law could not save everyone, because the law condemned everyone who even stumbles in one sin.

Again, Your trying to earn by law

I've clearly and pointedly stated that my Gospel is not based on living by the Law of Moses. I clearly and explicitly said that the true Gospel of Christ is living by Christ alone, and not by the Law of Moses.

And so, your argument is based on a lie, in an attempt to misrepresent my position. You've relied upon a strange definition of "living by law," which could conceivably be taken as a form of antinomianism. Do you have no "law" in your system or Gospel? If so, you might as well erase the entire New Testament! It is literally filled with rules and laws!

You want to push works..

Here you're playing the same game as you do with the concept of "law." You try to twist the word "works" into meaning "the works of the Law of Moses," when I've completely rejected this. But if you claim there is no "works" in Christianity, you still have to deal with arguments such as I used when referring to James 2, where James clearly and explicitly described how "works" as a concept fits into the Gospel of Christ. To deny there is any "works" in Christianity is just as bad as saying there isn't any "law" in Christianity!

As I said from the start, your problem is with semantics. I said from the start that this is what has caused so much difficulty in the debate between Law and Grace. It is a *semantics issue.* There is law and there is works in Christianity--it is just not connected to the Covenant of the Law of Moses, which is now obsolete.

You are quite right that all righteousness comes from Christ and not from our own independent assertion. But as I said, our obedience to the Law of God and our Works emanate from Christ himself when we choose to respond to his Word. And so, when an unbeliever repents, he is choosing to respond to God's Word, and so obtains virtue in his choices, or in his "works." We love because He loved us 1st.

Obedience to Gods law. The problem with this. Is unless you are prefect. You are not good enough. You’re still dead in your sin. God did not give moses the law and tell them they must never break one command or they are cursed. Then send his son, to save us, and tell us again, Obey the law, the same requirment stands. If you break one command your guilty.. He is not going to tell us to do what we can not do. Then say that is required to ultimately be saved..

Please tell me where I said repentance is not required for salvation.

You said we are not told to *do* anything in order to be Saved. Repentance is something we "do," which is clearly being rejected by you if you say we need "do" nothing! This was your entire argument!

As I said before, this is an exercise in vanity if you completely fail to understand my argument, which you do fail to do. And so, why do you persist in arguing this? I don't want to leave any other readers left in darkness about what I'm saying. But you continue to obscure what I'm saying by claiming I'm arguing for keeping the Law of Moses! That is *not* what I've ever been saying!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I stated the facts, and again you deny them!
The "doing" required in our Salvation is contained in the passage in question. In John 3 Jesus states what is required--we must meet the criteria given in this verse:

John 3.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

We must:
1) come into the light (Jesus).
2) show that what we do is done in the sight of God (though Jesus).

In order to show that what we've done was done in the sight of God we must actually *do something!*

typical. A failure to read.

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

If you read the story. those who believed, look and were saved, literally born again out of death. those who did not died. because they did not believe

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Not once but twice Jesus said what needs to be done

Believe (trust in him) if you do this, you will never perish, and out of your new birth you will live forever.

How many times does Jesus need to say it before you listen?

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Who is not condemned? those who believe. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

This is why they do not believe and why they will remain condemned

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

This is what we do when we believe. We come to God. and he saved us, and gives us eternal life. and we will never perish.

Nothing about showing what we do or doing any type of work.

come to the cross man, the jew could not save himself they had to look to the serpent.. they are the examp

That's false. That's exactly what he said. He said this:
John 3.19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

See above, You are in error

You shouldn't fault me because you wish to deny what is explicitly written! Jesus is giving people a choice, to refuse to come into the light or to come into the light. To choose to come into the light is by default a choice to live by the truth and to oppose doing evil.

Your the one who is denying that those who come in faith are born again and will never perish. not me

I've clearly and pointedly stated that my Gospel is not based on living by the Law of Moses. I clearly and explicitly said that the true Gospel of Christ is living by Christ alone, and not by the Law of Moses.

Yet you are preaching we must work to earn it, it is a merit based salvation.. That puts you right under the law.. whether you see it or not

And so, your argument is based on a lie, in an attempt to misrepresent my position. You've relied upon a strange definition of "living by law," which could conceivably be taken as a form of antinomianism. Do you have no "law" in your system or Gospel? If so, you might as well erase the entire New Testament! It is literally filled with rules and laws!

Here you're playing the same game as you do with the concept of "law." You try to twist the word "works" into meaning "the works of the Law of Moses," when I've completely rejected this. But if you claim there is no "works" in Christianity, you still have to deal with arguments such as I used when referring to James 2, where James clearly and explicitly described how "works" as a concept fits into the Gospel of Christ. To deny there is any "works" in Christianity is just as bad as saying there isn't any "law" in Christianity!

As I said from the start, your problem is with semantics. I said from the start that this is what has caused so much difficulty in the debate between Law and Grace. It is a *semantics issue.* There is law and there is works in Christianity--it is just not connected to the Covenant of the Law of Moses, which is now obsolete.

You are quite right that all righteousness comes from Christ and not from our own independent assertion. But as I said, our obedience to the Law of God and our Works emanates from Christ himself when we choose to respond to his Word. And so, when an unbeliever repents, he is choosing to respond to God's Word, and so obtains virtue in his choices, or in his "works." We love because He loved us 1st.

You said we are not told to *do* anything in order to be Saved. Repentance is something we "do," which is clearly being rejected by you if you say we need "do" nothing! This was your entire argument!

As I said before, this is an exercise in vanity if you completely fail to understand my argument, which you do fail to do. And so, why do you persist in arguing this? I don't want to leave any other readers left in darkness about what I'm saying. But you continue to obscure what I'm saying by claiming I'm arguing for keeping the Law of Moses! That is *not* what I've ever been saying!

it has nothing to do with law and grace.

it has everything to do with works and grace.

if it is grace, it is no longer works, otherwise, grace is no longer grace.

Heed pauls warning

the bible states there are two ways to heaven

1. The law

2. Grace

there is no third way