By the way, I do understand it is the Spirit that avails a man and not the letter, but prophecy does literally happen also. Jesus actually WAS born of a virgin and He DID literally die on a cross.
Keep Your Eyes on Israel
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By the way, I do understand it is the Spirit that avails a man and not the letter, but prophecy does literally happen also. Jesus actually WAS born of a virgin and He DID literally die on a cross.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
the scene it paints is Jesus's return to heaven from earth (bozrah) and questions being asked by those there ...and answered
As to my thoughts on the current Israel/Hamas conflict, neither of them know Jesus, so I see it as a secular matter, largely, as in, if rockets are lobbed at a country does that country have a right to lob rockets in return in defense? The world does seem to think they have that right.
But also, I do think God will, one day in the future, once again lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her there again. I do think He will remove the partial blindness He has put on them once the time of the gentiles is full.
But also, I do think God will, one day in the future, once again lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her there again. I do think He will remove the partial blindness He has put on them once the time of the gentiles is full.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Jesus speaks a lot in code (parables and others) It is helpful to recognise when and when it is not. If it is misinterpreted a mess in understanding results.
..I guess a little long this time...
Well I'm glad you feel comfortable and I have your permission to voice my opinion. How mighty and generous of you as I was beginning to wonder and even tremble if you might even get mad. Yes, deliberate sarcasm is required for such a huge ego as yours. You need to ratchet it down a bit my friend. Not a great way to meet on a common ground for a positive discussion aye, if that was your intention.
Before I forget, why have you not answered my post on a completely different subject as of yet? If you did already then I do apologize. I don't normally comment on someone else's thread and I apologize for that.
Anyway to be brief, it's 'on binding and loosening.' It is your thread! I believe you will have a very difficult time providing an answer for me. You have pronounced that the keys to the Kingdom can only be found in the hands of the overseers, or the elders of a church. Do you seriously really think that is true? I have the keys to the Kingdom to loosen and bind and I'm not any elder in any official church. Anyway, it is your thread to respond to me on that subject, if you wish, and not here.
As in that subject and this one, I believe you have picked up ideas over time that are mostly the traditional thoughts of men and not necessarily in harmony with scripture. And now I will go out on a limb, and say like many, you have not performed any serious examination on these serious subjects and quickly planted this seed into core belief system, and called it the truth. And now its hard to pull out of the ground if you wanted to, as it has grown, maybe to maturity. As you know that is your seed or plant of truth and not necessarily mine.
On this subject, we are speaking over each other. We have no common basis for discussion as of yet. You assume that your post automatically brings me on some common ground concerning who are the Israelites and even of the apostles and Paul, in Christ's time, and then those of today are the same 'type. ' Well you may have assumed completely wrong.
Look, this is what I mean - your opening paragraph statement:
"About current Israel, I don't think they are in the greatest place spiritually either, but then there were numerous times throughout the history of Israel in Old Testament times when they were far worse, sacrificing their children to pagan gods and such."
You have assumed that this current political State of Israel are all, as a nation of true Israelites or even the remnant, as a collective whole. This is a lie, and not that I'm calling you that personally of course. They are not a national remnant of the spiritual and of course not of physical line of Israelites, as it is spoken of in scripture. You have made this your truth, and it's not my truth.
Now, as in any nation or country there are a few and a very few today of the true remnant that have not come to Christ yet. It will not be publicly announced to the world when they are saved, as the majority of the remnant have already been saved with Christ centuries ago without any fanfare, as they went into the world and assimilated into other nations.
Now again, this does not mean that there are folks in Israel today, very very few indeed that quietly, or in the future, without fan fare. come to Christ. Not trying to single anyone here, but I reckon Behold could be one of them. Could be?...nevertheless he is a believer and that is what really counts for his soul. You know, your ancestors or even mine could have been from a Tribe of true Israel, and we don't need to live to the East 1000s of miles away. Although all this does not count for anything today, only ones spiritual condition or standing in front of the Almighty as we both know...
I know in your reply. if you wish, you might confront me with especially OT scripture seemingly pointing to a separate identity and future for the bloodline of Israel as a nation. This is based on piecing scripture together in a very unstable and precarious way. A little gymnastics is involved. No, since the first stage of bondage of these people and then since 400 BC and onwards, true Israelites have been lost or saved over the centuries, without any fanfare and any celebration as a nation in a defined plot of land. The remnant that Paul spoke of, have mostly been saved today as true CHRISTIANS. There is no future separate Christian ekklesia and then one so-called Jew ekklesia. They are all one in the Kingdom as believers in Christ. If you truly DO NOT believe that Christ first came to save the lost tribes and then the rest of all nations afterwards, you then really do not believe in the true meaning and mission of Christ for salvation.
No, these people in the current State of Israel, over 95% of them, are imposter as posing as Israelites, of God's chosen. They came from Eastern Europe mostly and before that, they were part of the Khazarian tribes hugging the Black sea with the Caspian at their rear. Their blood line is of the Asiatic-Turkish stock. They were converted to the Pharisaic religion of Judaism around 700 AD with their Babylonian Talmud as their Book of worship that describes Christians as sub-humans and dogs that can be killed, children raped, and that Christ is presently boiling in feces..... that is not God inspired at all. They are the neo-Pharisees, the self-styled Jews that run the world today under many deceitful titles...masons, Zionists, illuminati, most of the central bankers, advisers to national leaders, and in many more areas. They created the State of Israel by terrorizing the indigenous folks around them....They introduced the term ''terrorism' in the modern day vocabulary...want more.
Christ detested and hated the Pharisees. And I wonder what he thinks of these so-called chosen ones today, the Israelis as a nation, their visible and invisible center of power especially, NOT the common INNOCENT people, deceiving the world and planning on killing off true Christians, their true enemy, before Christ returns?
APAK
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Not to mention that for the last 2000 plus years they’ve not atoned for their sins.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Philippians 3:18-20 KJV
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
I wouldn’t use the word code exactly. I would use the word spirit.
The words I give you, they are spirit and truth.
12x12k are saved, some being saved now, and some in the future H2S
Do you think the 12x12k is a literal number?
I will be a little lazy today and quote someone else....of course this subject can be lengthy...
I just picked one that does follow my thought as an intro at least
------------------------from https://originalgospel.blog/2019/01/22/the-144000-literal-or-symbolic-2/----------------
Is 144,000 a literal number? Thus far, Scripture has provided no evidence that there are two classes of believers, one ruling over the other. Can it be demonstrated from Revelation itself, that the number 144,000 is not a literal number, but symbolic?
The whole nature of Revelation is one of symbolism. If the 144,000 was a literal number, then the 12 tribes of Israel referred to in chapter 7 would have to be literal as well. How can we take the number 144,000 as literal when every other aspect of this description from verse one to verse eight, is symbolic?
The fact that Revelation 7:1-8 describes John hearing the number 144,000 and then after that, John sees a ‘great crowd,’ does not necessarily mean that they are two separate groups of people, but viewed from a different perspective. The symbolic 144,000 are more likely the ‘great crowd’ – which no man can literally number.
----end quote---------
So you think that this 12x12k people are to be taken literally? and then they are all to come out of the same plot of land, of the current State of Israel?
Bless you, I know you care a lot about this subject, and so do I
APAK
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
What a thing to wake up to, LoL.
APAK, for starters what are you on about with the arrogance thing? I'm just sharing my thoughts. Geez, LoL.
Now I'm guessing you're going to think I'm "arrogant" in saying this again, but this post just comes off like a barrage of words. Not a lot of it I can take any more seriously than your accusation that I'm arrogant. The part about the Jews not actually being Jews I suppose is interesting, but not exactly something you've demonstrated proof for. But this part above... You believe Christ "detested and hated the Pharisees"? He strongly chastised the Pharisees, but this contention of yours that He hated them is I believe at the heart of where you and I disagree so much on this issue. Jesus taught in Matthew 22:39-40 that the second greatest commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. It is also said that as He was about to enter Jerusalem he wept and said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem. How I would have gathered you unto myself as a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not." Jerusalem was the home of the Sanhedrin, and thus the home of the Pharisees. You believe in these things that what Jesus was actually saying is "Love your neighbor but hate the Pharisees"? Not all Pharisees were His enemies. Nicodemus certainly was not. And even for those who truly were His enemies, Jesus said the following:
"You have heard it said, 'Love your friends and hate your enemies.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Jesus was saying He wanted the way they treated others to be perfect. How could their behavior be perfect if His wasn't? If He was detesting and hating the Pharisees when they were His enemies, how could He teach that the disciples were supposed to love them?
I will respond more to your post in "Binding" in just a second. I'm just waking up.
I perceive it as 144,000 Jews who are converted as the remnant who would take the Gospel to Israel....the rest being Gentiles...as it said ...the Jews were provoked to jealousy by the salvation of the Gentiles.
Non sequitor. Whether or not 144,000 sealed Jews is literal is not the same thing as a "ruling class of believers".
The number is named in a Prophetic Narrative. Without a statement to the contrary, and information on what the symbol means, to take it as other than literal would be to assume without evidence that it doesn't mean what it says.
But it's not.
John was not symbolic. Nor Jesus. The churches. Those who hide in the rocks. Those who stand before the throne. On it goes, persons named who are actually those people. Why not these?
OK. I don't see how that is an argument for it not being literal.
Is it? This is circular reasoning. "Of course it's symbolic because it's ALL symbolic."
That two groups are described within a few verses of each other doesn't mean they are the same.
But follow the prophetic narrative. John sees a group numbered precisely, from a single nation, and then sees another group which no man could number, from all nations. If we take the straightforward reading, these are to distinct groups.
The self-contradiction is right there to be seen.
Why should we not take this passage for exactly what it says?
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Old Testament Prophets were addressing the Israel people and their idolatry and disobedience...New Testament addresses the New Covenant God established through Jesus.....OT Jews adhered to the Mosaic Laws....New Testament set them free to not be bound by those laws....Jesus is our only hope in reconciling man back to God the Father.
All of the OT deals with Israel....NT deals with all mankind.
Israel was married to God...
Marriage is used to describe the relationship between God and Israel in the OT and between Jesus Christ and the church in the NT. Contemplating marriage deepens understanding of God’s love for his people; examining God’s covenant love for his people similarly enriches an understanding of marriage.
God’s marriage relationship with Israel
God’s marriage covenant with Israel Eze 16:8-14 The covenant at Sinai was seen as a form of marriage. See also Jer 31:32; Eze 16:59-60
God as Israel’s husband Isa 54:5 See also Hos 2:7; Joel 1:8
Israel’s early devotion Jer 2:2 See also Eze 16:43; Hos 2:15
The breakdown of God’s marriage to Israel
Israel’s adultery Jer 3:20 See also Jer 2:32; Eze 16:32-34; Hos 1:2; Hos 9:1
Israel’s alienation from God is likened to a divorce Hos 2:2 Israel’s unfaithfulness led to a form of divorce between God and his people. This was sometimes identified with the exile. See also Isa 50:1; Jer 3:6-10
The renewal of God’s marriage to Israel
God calls his bride to return Jer 3:12-14; Hos 3:1-3 See also Isa 54:6-8; Hos 2:14
The renewed relationship Isa 62:4-5 See also Jer 31:31-33; Eze 16:62; Hos 2:16,19-20
Jesus Christ’s marriage relationship with the church
Jesus Christ’s love as a model for marriage Eph 5:25-33
Jesus Christ is described as a bridegroom Jn 3:29 John the Baptist describes Jesus Christ as the bridegroom and himself as the best man. See also Mt 9:15 pp Mk 2:19-20 pp Lk 5:34-35; Mt 22:2; Mt 25:1-13
The church as Christ’s bride 2Co 11:2; Rev 19:7-9 See also Rev 21:2,9-10; Rev 22:17
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I didn't get the alert. Either that, or I blew through them too quickly when it came through. I was very active on several threads at once last night.
But I responded to your question just now, and sorry about missing your post. Looking forward to corresponding with you more on it. As stated at the end, I am reserving mornings for it if you want to discuss the subject in more detail.
- H
Binding And Loosing: A Proper Understanding
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Not saying your right or wrong but consider this. The Baptist said the bridegroom hath the bride and the friend that stands by and hears His voice rejoices.,,,,, question what voice did the Baptist here upon baptizing Jesus, and where did this voice come from? This will be the bridegroom, the One Who spoke.
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