Last Trump vs Seventh

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Are they the same last and 7th


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n2thelight

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Didn't I make it plain enough?; all the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:24-56 is about after the Millennium and the GWT Judgment. Verse 24 sets the scene; AFTER Jesus hands the Kingdom back to the Father.
Where is your proof that immortality is given to any human before the GWT and the Book of Life is opened?

The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11:15 is when Jesus receives His authority, but there is yet to happen the Seven Bowls and the gathering of the worlds armies, when Jesus will exercise that authority at His Return. Revelation 16:17-18

May be plan to you,but you're wrong!When is the first resurrection ?
Are you saying the LAST trump of Corinth is after the milennium?
 
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Keraz

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May be plan to you,but you're wrong!When is the first resurrection ?
Are you saying the LAST trump of Corinth is after the milennium?
Yes, I am.
False beliefs cloud the thinking of those who grip to them.

I reiterate: 1 Corinthians 15:24-56 is purely about the time after the Millennium. The GWT Judgement, where ALL people who have ever lived are judged, and those whose names are Written in the Book of Life will receive immortality. Never does the Bible say that can happen before this.

There is a 'bringing back to life', when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4 indisputably says it is only for the Tribulation martyrs. It is not into immortality, as they may experience the second death, as Lazarus did. But as their names are in the BoL, they will be raised to immortality at the GWT.

So I am not 'wrong', as you so rudely put it. It is all those 'wolves in sheep's clothing; the false teachers who have taught the 'rapture to heaven' theory, who are wrong. Those who have promoted fables, that millions have believed, to their eternal shame.
 

n2thelight

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Yes, I am.
False beliefs cloud the thinking of those who grip to them.

I reiterate: 1 Corinthians 15:24-56 is purely about the time after the Millennium. The GWT Judgement, where ALL people who have ever lived are judged, and those whose names are Written in the Book of Life will receive immortality. Never does the Bible say that can happen before this.

There is a 'bringing back to life', when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4 indisputably says it is only for the Tribulation martyrs. It is not into immortality, as they may experience the second death, as Lazarus did. But as their names are in the BoL, they will be raised to immortality at the GWT.

So I am not 'wrong', as you so rudely put it. It is all those 'wolves in sheep's clothing; the false teachers who have taught the 'rapture to heaven' theory, who are wrong. Those who have promoted fables, that millions have believed, to their eternal shame.

Sorry you think I was being rude as that was not my intent .

Now let's get to why I (IMO)as scripture shows me , you wrong

We gonna do one question at a time,as I'm not understanding what you're saying.

Did Paul not say we are all changed at the last trump?

Oh and Laz didn't die the 2nd death as that is the death of the soul which there is no coming back from.

Oh,so the last trump is not the rapture?
 
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Keraz

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Sorry you think I was being rude as that was not my intent .

Now let's get to why I (IMO)as scripture shows me , you wrong

We gonna do one question at a time,as I'm not understanding what you're saying.

Did Paul not say we are all changed at the last trump?

Oh and Laz didn't die the 2nd death as that is the death of the soul which there is no coming back from.

Oh,so the last trump is not the rapture?
1/ Apology accepted.
2/ Bible right; you wrong.
3/ I point out what the Bible actually says, no inferences, assumptions and guesswork.
4/ He did and that Last Trump will happen on the very last day of God's decreed time for mankind. 7000 years since Adam.
5/ Lazarus DID die the second death, but it has no power over him, as his name is Written in the Book of Life and Jesus agreed with Martha that he would live again ON THE LAST DAY.
 

Jay Ross

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1/ Apology accepted.
2/ Bible right; you wrong.
3/ I point out what the Bible actually says, no inferences, assumptions and guesswork.
4/ He did and that Last Trump will happen on the very last day of God's decreed time for mankind. 7000 years since Adam.
5/ Lazarus DID die the second death, but it has no power over him, as his name is Written in the Book of Life and Jesus agreed with Martha that he would live again ON THE LAST DAY.
You may point out what the Bible English translations state/actual says with no inferences, assumptions and guesswork, but do you know if the English translations you rely on to form you POV are translations that actually reflect the word of God as found in the source text used for the English translation you rely on?

I came across an interesting passage in the Book of Exodus (6:1-9) where God states that He would take the Nation of Israel into the "Promised prescribed Land" as solemnly confirmed in a covenant to their father Abraham for a defined period of time until they are scattered to the four corners of the earth. God then goes on to tell the Nation of Israel that they would also inherit the whole earth which was promised as an inheritance to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But I also know, that you do not believe that the inheritance of the saints is the whole earth, by what you post in this forum.

Shalom
 

Keraz

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You may point out what the Bible English translations state/actual says with no inferences, assumptions and guesswork, but do you know if the English translations you rely on to form you POV are translations that actually reflect the word of God as found in the source text used for the English translation you rely on?
The Bible translation that I rely on is the Revised English Bible, Oxford Press 1989. It is the one used by most Wickliffe people as their source for scripture written in the best way to understand the original meaning.
So I stand by what I post as being as accurate as possible. I do check with other trans, as well.
God then goes on to tell the Nation of Israel that they would also inherit the whole earth which was promised as an inheritance to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Exodus 6:1-9 states that God gave the land of Canaan to the Patriarchs, nothing more.
Genesis 15:18-19 confirms the area from the Nile to the Euphrates is all of the holy Land.

However, during the Millennium, we Christians will rule with Christ over all the earth, Revelation 5:10
 

n2thelight

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1/ Apology accepted.
2/ Bible right; you wrong.
3/ I point out what the Bible actually says, no inferences, assumptions and guesswork.
4/ He did and that Last Trump will happen on the very last day of God's decreed time for mankind. 7000 years since Adam.
5/ Lazarus DID die the second death, but it has no power over him, as his name is Written in the Book of Life and Jesus agreed with Martha that he would live again ON THE LAST DAY.

Again no he didn't,the 2nd death is the death of the soul

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Nobody has been in the lake of fire!

Show me where the last trump happens after the millennium
 
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Jay Ross

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The Bible translation that I rely on is the Revised English Bible, Oxford Press 1989. It is the one used by most Wickliffe people as their source for scripture written in the best way to understand the original meaning.
So I stand by what I post as being as accurate as possible. I do check with other trans, as well.

Exodus 6:1-9 states that God gave the land of Canaan to the Patriarchs, nothing more.
Genesis 15:18-19 confirms the area from the Nile to the Euphrates is all of the holy Land.

However, during the Millennium, we Christians will rule with Christ over all the earth, Revelation 5:10

How sad it is that you have no idea whether or not your RSV is an accurate translation rendition of the original source texts.

From my limited understanding of the transmission of language, is that, the reader should come to the same understanding as the originator of the text passage. Sadly, the bias of what people believe is "God's truth," is what has found its way into our English translations and if we accept the errors forged into the English translations then our understanding of God's purposes ends up in the horse hockey material that we call our reliable English Translations.

Here is my understanding of the Exodus.6:1-9 passage with two correction to clarify what the context of the passage clearly states: -

Exodus 6:1-13: –– God Renews His Promise to Israel

6:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh. For with a strong hand he will let them go, and with a strong hand he will drive them out of his land."

2 And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Lord I was not known to them. 4 I have also established My covenant with them, to give them/their descendants the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. 6 Therefore say to the children of Israel: 'I am the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. 7 I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you into the land/earth which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the Lord.'" 9 So Moses spoke thus to the children of Israel; but they did not heed Moses, because of anguish of spirit and cruel bondage.

Yes, your statement above is half right in that you have missed the essences of the promises that God had made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning the final heritage that the fathers and their descendants would receive.

Shalom
 

Keraz

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Show me where the last trump happens after the millennium
Actually Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:52 does not make it clear when the Last trump will happen.
We must ascertain it from the context. which is after the Millennium; verse 24 and when Death is no more, verse 34-35.
Your belief of it happening before the final Judgment of the GWT; after the Millennium, cannot be sustained.
6000 years since Adam,7000th starts the Day of the Lord which is the millennium.
Why post this? I agree that we are now nearly at the end of the 6000 years of mans rule on earth. Jesus will rule for the 'sabbath' Millennium. Which is not the Day of the Lord's wrath, it commences with the Great Day of God Almighty, Revelation 16:14
How sad it is that you have no idea whether or not your RSV is an accurate translation rendition of the original source texts.
Are you unable to read New Zealand lingo? My Bible is the REB and is a complete re-translation from every source, incl the Dead Sea scrolls, by a group of expert linguists. It is eminently readable in our modern English comprehension.
On the other hand, when I check with other trans; I often see glaring errors and incomprehensible passages, especially in the KJV.
Yes, your statement above is half right in that you have missed the essences of the promises that God had made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning the final heritage that the fathers and their descendants would receive.
Why are you still rattling on about this? I posted in #66, Genesis 15:18, that area is our heritage until Jesus Returns.
 

n2thelight

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Actually Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:52 does not make it clear when the Last trump will happen.
We must ascertain it from the context. which is after the Millennium; verse 24 and when Death is no more, verse 34-35.
Your belief of it happening before the final Judgment of the GWT; after the Millennium, cannot be sustained.

Paul makes it very clear

The below is when the change takes place,us going from flesh to spirit

Now look at the verse of the 7th trump

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Now put both together with

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Now since His kingdom starts when He gets here
 

Keraz

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Paul makes it very clear

The below is when the change takes place,us going from flesh to spirit

Now look at the verse of the 7th trump

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Yes Paul does make it clear; immortality is conferred only after the Millennium, when Death will be no more. 1 Cor 15:54

Revelation 11:15 Then the Seventh angel blew his trumpet...… Jesus receives His sovereignty over the world.
Nothing to do with people becoming immortal.
I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
Now since His kingdom starts when He gets here
You confuse the Kingdom of God, for Eternity, with the Kingdom of Jesus, for 1000 years.

The belief of immortality before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life is opened, is false and can never happen. It is part of the shockingly bad and unscriptural 'rapture to heaven' theory. Get out of it before it's too late!
Because you are in error in your understanding.

Shalom
Oh really? Can you be bothered to show where the Bible says Christians will rule the world before Jesus Returns?
The sequence as given by the Bible prophets, is that all the holy Land area will soon be cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
The call will go out to all the faithful Christians to travel to and settle there. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Psalms 107, +
The rest of the world will be under a One World Govt, soon to be led by one powerful man. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12-13 Both of these prophecies go on to say how he will conquer the holy people and control all the world for 3 1/2 years.
THEN Jesus Returns and destroys his army and chains him up.
Jesus will rule as King for 1000 years, then He gives the Kingdom back to the Father, 1 Cor 15:24, for Eternity, when those who are found worthy will live forever in the Kingdom of God.
 

Jay Ross

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Oh really? Can you be bothered to show where the Bible says Christians will rule the world before Jesus Returns?
The sequence as given by the Bible prophets, is that all the holy Land area will soon be cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
The call will go out to all the faithful Christians to travel to and settle there. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Psalms 107, +
The rest of the world will be under a One World Govt, soon to be led by one powerful man. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12-13 Both of these prophecies go on to say how he will conquer the holy people and control all the world for 3 1/2 years.
THEN Jesus Returns and destroys his army and chains him up.
Jesus will rule as King for 1000 years, then He gives the Kingdom back to the Father, 1 Cor 15:24, for Eternity, when those who are found worthy will live forever in the Kingdom of God.

Oh, so you do not read my posts where I have explained Ezekiel.34:11-16 to you and show that God will plant them in a fertile field where they are scattered throughout the whole world.
You have not read that I have stated that Jesus will be fleetingly seen judging the kings of the earth in sight of Jerusalem and that Israel will seek his terms of peace in our near future before he returns to heaven to continue in his role as the mediating Priest in heaven with the saints who have been resurrected after losing their heads because of their faith in God during the 1,000 years that Satan, his fellow fallen wicked heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth and their armies are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit.

I did ask you a question though about what God promised Abraham in Gen.12:1, but you hold to the tradition of the Israelite's belief that God promised them the "Promised Land" that He would show them.

When you read Genesis.12:7 a little further, God also promised to give to Abraham's descendants the earth, which is the same Hebrew word found in Gen.12:1 and has the meaning of "the Earth" as defined in Gen.1:1.

My experience is that my faulty understanding of the Bible stems from the first error that I created in my understanding of the Bible and the lies grew from that error. I too once thought that God only gave the Land of Canaan to Abraham, but the bible also tells us that Abraham received no part or place from God in the Land of Canaan.

Do I need to go on about your faulty POV.

Have a good now in the land where the long white cloud hides the truth from you.
 

Keraz

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Oh, so you do not read my posts where I have explained Ezekiel.34:11-16 to you and show that God will plant them in a fertile field where they are scattered throughout the whole world.
The only 'explanation of the Bible' that I take any notice of, is what it plainly states:
Ezekiel 34:11-16 The Lord says: Now I shall take thought for My sheep and search for them.....from wherever they are scattered, on the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out and gather them back into their own country.
The Day of darkness, is obviously the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:12, the Day the Lord will clear all of the holy Land.

Abraham didn't occupy all of the holy Land, but his descendants will, or God's promise to him will fail.
Who are Abraham's descendants? Galatians 3:26-29 is crystal clear; all the Christians will occupy the holy Land, people from every tribe, race, nation and language; John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.

Lucky that Australia has had so many New Zealanders go to live there. It has improved the intelligence level of both countries.
 

Jay Ross

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The only 'explanation of the Bible' that I take any notice of, is what it plainly states:
Ezekiel 34:11-16 The Lord says: Now I shall take thought for My sheep and search for them.....from wherever they are scattered, on the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out and gather them back into their own country.
The Day of darkness, is obviously the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:12, the Day the Lord will clear all of the holy Land.

Abraham didn't occupy all of the holy Land, but his descendants will, or God's promise to him will fail.
Who are Abraham's descendants? Galatians 3:26-29 is crystal clear; all the Christians will occupy the holy Land, people from every tribe, race, nation and language; John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.

Lucky that Australia has had so many New Zealanders go to live there. It has improved the intelligence level of both countries.

So, if someone takes the time to consider the original source texts and check out what the Hebrew text may be saying instead of blindly accepting the errors in the committee driven translations, then that person must be wrong because you can only accept what the translations provide.

It demonstrates the level of competence that you have and apply to your study of the scriptures. it puts you in a place where you do not have any backing to support your POV and your posts on Biblical matters.

Where as, I read the English translations and then research whether the English context actually matches the Hebrew context as found in the source reference texts on which the translations are based. As an example, the Hebrew word for Soil, can be translated as land, or the Hebrew word for "the earth" is translated as "land" because of the context time bias of the translator.

You are pushing a POV from your ignorance of the understanding of the scriptures because of ignorance of the translators and the previous traditions held based on the idol of the "Promised Land" which has been used to hold to that tradition of false understanding.
 

Keraz

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You are pushing a POV from your ignorance of the understanding of the scriptures because of ignorance of the translators and the previous traditions held based on the idol of the "Promised Land" which has been used to hold to that tradition of false understanding.
The Promised Land is a real, physical area of real estate. We know its boundaries and we know that today it is inhabited by godless peoples, incl the Jewish nation of Israel. Soon; God will act to correct this situation. Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18
If God never has a people there who will worship Him in truth and spirit, then His whole Plan has failed. But be assured, He will act to clear and cleanse the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, and will gather His faithful people there.
Great will be that time!
 

Jay Ross

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The Promised Land is a real, physical area of real estate. We know its boundaries and we know that today it is inhabited by godless peoples, incl the Jewish nation of Israel. Soon; God will act to correct this situation. Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18
If God never has a people there who will worship Him in truth and spirit, then His whole Plan has failed. But be assured, He will act to clear and cleanse the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, and will gather His faithful people there.
Great will be that time!

The above scriptures still do not support your POV. What do the words really say in the verses that you reference. What is the inheritance of Abraham and his descendants in the distant future?
 

07-07-07

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I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Seriously you all can't see this ?I mean how many mysteries are there?

It certainly stands out to me. I'm persuaded to believe that the Rapture occurs at the 7th Trump. At some point after the Rapture occurs, the angels begin to pour out the 7 vials of wrath on depraved humanity, which I interpret to be the final 3.5 years of great tribulation. So, I would be deemed to believe in a mid-tribulation Rapture.
 
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