Latter Day Saints Site Falsely Teaches Works Salvation

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Jane_Doe22

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The Latter Day Saint's have a Theology that teaches that :

All of us, before we are born, were with God.. as 'Pre-mortal" But .....we were not good yet.
God sort of originally created us as naughty Spirits, who needed to learn how to not be bad little boys and girls.
So, He created this MOMRON SALVATiON OPERA..... for Humanity.
He sent us down here to be born, so that we can sin, and then learn how to be good.
Jesus , leads this OPERA, and comes down eventually to help us learn to be obedient, how to stop sinning, how to keep covenants, how to follow his teachings, how to be forgiven, and most of all = learn how to be good.
Not accurate.
 

dev553344

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Some of your understanding is inaccurate here. For example, loosing one's temple recommend does not equate to loosing salvation or exaltation. Christ is the Judge. The purpose of a bishop's guidance is to help a person repent - to get to that point where their heart is at that "go & sin no more" stage. That extra voice and perspective helps because we prideful humans so often justify or excuse away are sins, especially super tangly ones like adultery. The goal is to help the sinner get to the repentant heart and "go & sin no more".
Interesting perspectives, thanks. And "go and sin no more" seems to be a directive of the early church as there were no poor among them because they all obeyed the Royal Law of Love God and your neighbor. The sheep and goats parables spells out doom for people that cannot obey those commandments and heaven for those who can. So I think not sinning would require that. Does the Mormon church have these crucial directives in their temple recomends and judging of Bishops over their flock as the church in the bible did? Remember Saphira and Ananaias were killed for not obeying this directive which lead them to lie to the Holy Spirit. So it seems crucially important to God.

And I just don't see that in the Mormon teachings or the general conference talks. They focus more on covenants and 10 commandments and such.
 

dev553344

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I'll be honest, and it would seem that the Mormons teach to obey the ten commandments and that and the covenants are a benchmark for judging whether or not a person is worthy of the temple:

"In the April 2013 general conference, Elder Perry taught us that happiness comes from keeping all—not just some—of the Ten Commandments." The Other Six

We can consider that to be legalism in definition as obeying just the ten commandments will condemn us rather than save us. Jesus will save those that obey the Royal Law of love God and neighbor which is spelled out more accurately in the 10 commandments together with the sheep and goats of Matthew 25:31-46. And it is also spelled out in the early church directives of have no rich or poor among you but have all things in common. If not they we have failed the law and are condemned. Let's be honest no one is living according to this perfect law.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Interesting perspectives, thanks. And "go and sin no more" seems to be a directive of the early church as there were no poor among them because they all obeyed the Royal Law of Love God and your neighbor. The sheep and goats parables spells out doom for people that cannot obey those commandments and heaven for those who can. So I think not sinning would require that. Does the Mormon church have these crucial directives in their temple recomends and judging of Bishops over their flock as the church in the bible did? Remember Saphira and Ananaias were killed for not obeying this directive which lead them to lie to the Holy Spirit. So it seems crucially important to God.

And I just don't see that in the Mormon teachings or the general conference talks. They focus more on covenants and 10 commandments and such.
There's a lot to untangle here, I'll try to get a what I think you're asking, please correct me if I'm getting it wrong.

For talking about sins, I'm going to use an example of my friend "Jess". Jess had an affair. Very knowing it was wrong and doing it anyways. She rode the chemical high of sneaking around, illicit meetings, sexual hormones, feeling valued etc. She justified her behavior-- after all her husband was neglectful, sinning, and hurt her with his actions (those are also wrong, but doesn't justify adultery). She was angry and prideful, snapping at people if they suggested she was in error. Her marriage fell apart, her friendships fell apart, kids were uneasy, etc. Her heart was very much in the wrong place.

Eventually, Jess realized that she was doing things wrong, her life way falling apart, and she needed help. Help from God and her fellow man. She couldn't escape this maze alone. She confessed her sins to her husband and spoke with her bishop. The bishop is there as a judge- lower case "j", only Christ is the Judge. The bishop's role is to be like a coach- helping you navigate these tangles.

Jess regularly came to church, always welcome. She did loose her temple recommend for a time, meaning that while navigating this maze she wasn't able to serve as a Priestess performing rites. But still welcome at church services, participating in lessons, praying, and working with her coach (the bishop) to get her heart in that right place.

And she did! But the grace of God- such an amazing rebirth. Her rekindled her love for God, her husband, her fellow man. Gone was the prideful snappy "I do what I want" witch, and instead this loving caring woman whom now so much deep lover the Savior. Like the woman whom washed His feet with her hair, Jess personally knew love and gratitude for Him so deeply.



What does this have to do with covenants and commandments? Well obviously "don't commit adultery" is a commandment and we do covenant to not commit adultery. But commandments don't exist for "and God just wanted to give me a meaningly to do list". Rather they exist to help us come & stay closer to God-- God's the center of everything. I saw how this affair distorted Jess's heart and how she didn't really care about Him anymore-- to distracted with the hormonal high. I saw it tear her relationships apart, including hers & mine. She didn't care about anyone else. But, thanks to God, she did get back on track.


Notice: no where in this story did I say "and she lost her salvation or exaltation", cause that's not part of the story. Simply isn't.
 

dev553344

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There's a lot to untangle here, I'll try to get a what I think you're asking, please correct me if I'm getting it wrong.

For talking about sins, I'm going to use an example of my friend "Jess". Jess had an affair. Very knowing it was wrong and doing it anyways. She rode the chemical high of sneaking around, illicit meetings, sexual hormones, feeling valued etc. She justified her behavior-- after all her husband was neglectful, sinning, and hurt her with his actions (those are also wrong, but doesn't justify adultery). She was angry and prideful, snapping at people if they suggested she was in error. Her marriage fell apart, her friendships fell apart, kids were uneasy, etc. Her heart was very much in the wrong place.

Eventually, Jess realized that she was doing things wrong, her life way falling apart, and she needed help. Help from God and her fellow man. She couldn't escape this maze alone. She confessed her sins to her husband and spoke with her bishop. The bishop is there as a judge- lower case "j", only Christ is the Judge. The bishop's role is to be like a coach- helping you navigate these tangles.

Jess regularly came to church, always welcome. She did loose her temple recommend for a time, meaning that while navigating this maze she wasn't able to serve as a Priestess performing rites. But still welcome at church services, participating in lessons, praying, and working with her coach (the bishop) to get her heart in that right place.

And she did! But the grace of God- such an amazing rebirth. Her rekindled her love for God, her husband, her fellow man. Gone was the prideful snappy "I do what I want" witch, and instead this loving caring woman whom now so much deep lover the Savior. Like the woman whom washed His feet with her hair, Jess personally knew love and gratitude for Him so deeply.



What does this have to do with covenants and commandments? Well obviously "don't commit adultery" is a commandment and we do covenant to not commit adultery. But commandments don't exist for "and God just wanted to give me a meaningly to do list". Rather they exist to help us come & stay closer to God-- God's the center of everything. I saw how this affair distorted Jess's heart and how she didn't really care about Him anymore-- to distracted with the hormonal high. I saw it tear her relationships apart, including hers & mine. She didn't care about anyone else. But, thanks to God, she did get back on track.


Notice: no where in this story did I say "and she lost her salvation or exaltation", cause that's not part of the story. Simply isn't.
Well the commandments of don't steal or commit adultery are there so that we don't act in selfishness and hurt others. And those together with the sheep and goats of Matthew 25:31-46 or the same teaching. If you don't clothe the naked, feed the hungry or visit the sick you are guilty of the law which is away from selfishness.

And if you're guilty on one point, you are guilty of the whole law: James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all"

I think my concern is that Mormons judge worthiness from the 10 Commandments rather than what the New Testament teaches which is the Royal Law of love God and Neighbor. The 10 Commandments falls within that so that you don't selfishly hurt others. Not giving to the poor is selfishly hurting others as well.

I've seen selfish people hold temple recommends. If they were using a Godly judgment perhaps that wouldn't happen.

Which leads me to legalism. Legalism says that obeying the 10 commandments makes one saved by God after they repent. But the higher laws are taken into account.

Which is one of the reasons I like the Catholic church. Because they confess they are sinners and know this. And I think that's what I need as well. What I don't need is to feel self righteous because I obey the 10 commandments. Which are easy by the way.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Well the commandments of don't steal or commit adultery are there so that we don't act in selfishness and hurt others. And those together with the sheep and goats of Matthew 25:31-46 or the same teaching. If you don't clothe the naked, feed the hungry or visit the sick you are guilty of the law which is away from selfishness.

And if you're guilty on one point, you are guilty of the whole law: James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all"

I think my concern is that Mormons judge worthiness from the 10 Commandments rather than what the New Testament teaches which is the Royal Law of love God and Neighbor. The 10 Commandments falls within that so that you don't selfishly hurt others. Not giving to the poor is selfishly hurting others as well.

I've seen selfish bigots hold temple recommends. And adulterers that divorce their spouse to marry another. If they were using a Godly judgment perhaps that wouldn't happen.

Which leads me to legalism. Legalism says that obeying the 10 commandments makes one saved by God after they repent. But the higher laws are taken into account.

Which is one of the reasons I like the Catholic church. Because they confess they are sinners and know this. And I think that's what I need as well. What I don't need is to feel self righteous because I obey the 10 commandments. Which are easy by the way.
I’m confused here. Do you think it’s bad or legalistic we strive to not commit adultery?
 

dev553344

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I’m confused here. Do you think it’s bad or legalistic we strive to not commit adultery?
It's legalistic to teach to obey the 10 commandments and covenants and endure to the end and leave out the Royal law.
 

dev553344

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what is the royal law?
It is summarized in the church establishment that there are no rich or poor among the members of the church according to the bible. It is established in the 10 commandments and the sheep and goats. And further more the rich man in the bible was told to go and sell all he had and give it to the poor and follow Christ to be perfect.

It is to love God and your neighbor.
 

dev553344

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Royal Law:

James 2:8-13 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
 

dev553344

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Who’s leaving out the Royal Law? And it would be neglectful to not teach that adultery is wrong.
If you weren't leaving out the royal law then there would be no rich or poor in your church. I believe I already covered that. And transgessors in part are transgressors in whole. Sinners. Now I'm not judging as I am not perfect either. Just examining your church and it's similtude to the church established by Christ in the new testament.
 

Jane_Doe22

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If you weren't leaving out the royal law then there would be no rich or poor in your church. I believe I already covered that. And transgessors in part are transgressors in whole. Sinners. Now I'm not judging as I am not perfect either. Just examining your church and it's similtude to the church established by Christ in the new testament.
So you are critiquing that there isn’t completely standardized income across everyone?
 

Cassandra

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It is summarized in the church establishment that there are no rich or poor among the members of the church according to the bible. It is established in the 10 commandments and the sheep and goats. And further more the rich man in the bible was told to go and sell all he had and give it to the poor and follow Christ to be perfect.

It is to love God and your neighbor.
Yes. The law that was established in the Old Testament to stand forever
Deut 6:5
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Lev 19:8 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord."

Of the 10 commandments the 1st four are to God, and the last 6 to your neighbor.
 
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dev553344

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So you are critiquing that there isn’t completely standardized income across everyone?
Yes, in the church established in the bible they gave all and it was distributed. And they lived a more perfect and sinless life according to the Royal law.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Yes. The law that was established in the Old Testament to stand forever
Deut 6:5
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Lev 19:8 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord."

Of the 10 commandments the 1st four are to God, and the last 6 to your neighbor.
That is different then having literally the same income. A person can live in a socialist economy where literally everyone has the same paycheck, but hearts are far from Him and there’s no love between each other. And vise versa: different incomes but truly lovingGod and your neighbor.
 

dev553344

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Remember we teach to obey the commandments so that we will be desirable to be saved by Christ. And if we aren't obeying the Royal Law then we are transgressors of the law and are sinners. Then our attitude must be different as established in the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee. We must accept we are sinners and desire mercy from God.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Yes, in the church established in the bible they gave all and it was distributed. And they lived a more perfect and sinless life according to the Royal law.
I do not see the validity in this critique from an American. It’s also missing the point of where your HEART is.
 

Enoch111

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Believe, but what is official LDS doctrine that matters.
It looks like some people are in denial about what their churches actually teach. Yes, it is official LDS doctrine that matters, and unfortunately the Mormons have some very serious false doctrines as well as a false gospel.
 
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dev553344

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I do not see the validity in this critique from an American. It’s also missing the point of where your HEART is.
Hmm, well communists have rich among them that live on hills. I didn't say it had to apply to a country, just a church, as the bible so clearly points out.