Latter Day Saints Site Falsely Teaches Works Salvation

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think what I got out of this, is that Jesus says he will save you if you obey the commandments perfectly.
No.

It is NOT about being perfect and then Christ saves you.
It is NOT about earning your way to heaven.
It is NOT about legalism.
It is NOT about "here's my now I'm saved check box."
Is is NOT evil or wrong to teach that a disciple of Christ should strive to follow Him.

No. Please stop such claims.

So why are they not teaching to live perfectly to be saved by God? Then it wouldn't be legalism.
Actual beliefs: salvation come from God. You do NOT earn it. The first step is having faith in Christ- that's the foundation of everything. We repent of our sins and strive to follow Him. "Strive" is a keyword here- it means try. You will inevitably mess up, and Christ will be there to pick you back up again. Christ alone is perfect. You falling flat on your face doesn't take away from His perfection or invalidate your relationship. He's still there, He's still your Savior.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No.

It is NOT about being perfect and then Christ saves you.
It is NOT about earning your way to heaven.
It is NOT about legalism.
It is NOT about "here's my now I'm saved check box."
Is is NOT evil or wrong to teach that a disciple of Christ should strive to follow Him.

No. Please stop such claims.


Actual beliefs: salvation come from God. You do NOT earn it. The first step is having faith in Christ- that's the foundation of everything. We repent of our sins and strive to follow Him. "Strive" is a keyword here- it means try. You will inevitably mess up, and Christ will be there to pick you back up again. Christ alone is perfect. You falling flat on your face doesn't take away from His perfection or invalidate your relationship. He's still there, He's still your Savior.
Jane I'm not the one in the bible saying to obey the commandments perfectly and you will be saved, Jesus was. So what that means is that if you can live that way he promises salvation for you. I don't want to keep on this discussion as you don't seem to understand what I have provided for you.

Many are divided on that issue so I think others might benefit from this discussion even if you don't.

But I won't rest on that assumption of obeying the commandments perfectly and enduring to the end to have Jesus save me. I will look to mercy as a sinner.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You love to play that card of "I Enoch111, whom have never actually even stepped foot into a LDS Christian church building, know what they believe and teach better then actual members whom have studied and lived this for decades"
Since the LDS church has published its teachings, we do not need to go and visit any of their churches. We can access the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, as well their web site to see exactly what they believe. And it is scary.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jane I'm not the one in the bible saying to obey the commandments perfectly and you will be saved, Jesus was. So what that means is that if you can live that way he promises salvation for you. I don't want to keep on this discussion as you don't seem to understand what I have provided for you.

Many are divided on that issue so I think others might benefit from this discussion even if you don't.

But I won't rest on that assumption of obeying the commandments perfectly and enduring to the end to have Jesus save me. I will look to mercy as a sinner.
Honestly I'm very frustrated here. You've only been stating strawman ideas (like "you got to perfect to be saved" or "you earn your way to heaven") and then stating you disagree with that- just the same as everyone else does. There is no division on such things.

If you want to think you can do everything perfectly, you can think that. It's laughably wrong, but you can think it.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since the LDS church has published its teachings, we do not need to go and visit any of their churches. We can access the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, as well their web site to see exactly what they believe. And it is scary.
We've had this conversation many times: Satan can likewise cherry pick quotes to support his points. That doesn't equate to actual understanding. Your "anti-cult" stuff does not grant you understanding, and you are egotistically deceived if you think thus.

Real seekers of truth go through things directly. Like when I speak of Protestant beliefs, I speak having attneded Protestant churches hundreds of times. I speak of LDS Christian beliefs having read things over many many times, attended, breathed and lived it for decades.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Honestly I'm very frustrated here. You've only been stating strawman ideas (like "you got to perfect to be saved" or "you earn your way to heaven") and then stating you disagree with that- just the same as everyone else does. There is no division on such things.

If you want to think you can do everything perfectly, you can think that. It's laughably wrong, but you can think it.
Yes you got that point. Let's look at the entire promise Jesus tried to make with the rich man. If you study this you may see something similar to LDS teaching, which they say with faith and obeying the commandments and endure to the end you will be saved. So lets first look at the promise the LDS church makes to it's members as reported on their website:

"Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior’s Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual’s continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God" Salvation

But that's not entirely true to the biblical account as expressed by Jesus who taught it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven then for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. Which is something LDS teaching don't address. Thus supporting the structure of the church recorded in the bible where they lived in common and had no poor or rich among them but everything was distributed to each as had need. So the LDS church is not currently teaching this concept but are promising salvation none the less. So now I will look at the entire context of the promise Jesus made to the rich man:

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler​

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

With God All Things Are Possible​

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes you got that point. Let's look at the entire promise Jesus tried to make with the rich man. If you study this you may see something similar to LDS teaching, which they say with faith and obeying the commandments and endure to the end you will be saved. So lets first look at the promise the LDS church makes to it's members as reported on their website:

"Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior’s Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual’s continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God" Salvation

But that's not entirely true to the biblical account as expressed by Jesus who taught it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven then for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. Which is something LDS teaching don't address. Thus supporting the structure of the church recorded in the bible where they lived in common and had no poor or rich among them but everything was distributed to each as had need. So the LDS church is not currently teaching this concept but are promising salvation none the less. So now I will look at the entire context of the promise Jesus made to the rich man:

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler​

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

With God All Things Are Possible​

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
Dev, do you believe that it is required for a person to literally give away all of their possessions to be saved? Have you done that? A simple “yes” or “no” answer will suffice.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dev, do you believe that it is required for a person to literally give away all of their possessions to be saved? Have you done that? A simple “yes” or “no” answer will suffice.
Yes I do believe it is a requirement if you want to receive that promise Jesus made to the rich man. I don't believe following the LDS way will gain me salvation either as they don't teach Jesus' way as spelled out in the bible. But yes I am very poor and still help the needy when I have things to offer. But lets face it, rich and middle class are more able to help the homeless and poor. I don't think Jesus was talking to poor people like me when he made that promise. He in fact was talking to a rich man.

In this scenario as spelled out in the bible for the organization of it's church and the promise Jesus made to the rich man, my possessions would be improved while the rich and upper middle class would have to donate to people like me. LOL:Broadly:
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I should point out that good people have helped me and I am thankful as most of my possession are donations since I am mentally and physically disabled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keturah

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OK perfect, why am I a damned hypocrite, please explain.
You have a house. You have not sold it. You have other possessions that you have not sold. According to your own theology you have not followed Christ and are damned.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have a house. You have not sold it. You have other possessions that you have not sold. According to your own theology you have not followed Christ and are damned.
Well I'm more concerned about the rich people actually, but sure we can pretend I am a damned poor person. As Paul stated:

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Now God also gave an exception and said, with men it is impossible to save the rich, but with God all things are possible. And what that says to me is that God will judge who will be saved. So the LDS church should not be deciding that for the rich people. That in fact if they continue in faith and obey the commandments and endure to the end they will be saved. Unless it also teaches other money aspects.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well I'm more concerned about the rich people actually, but sure we can pretend I am a damned poor person. As Paul stated:

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Now God also gave an exception and said, with men it is impossible to save the rich, but with God all things are possible. And what that says to me is that God will judge who will be saved. So the LDS church should not be deciding that for the rich people. That in fact if they continue in faith and obey the commandments and endure to the end they will be saved. Unless it also teaches other money aspects.
I asked you about what YOU beleive. According to your theology, you are a damned hypocrite. Sorry, I have no patience for hypocrites.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I asked you about what YOU beleive. According to your theology, you are a damned hypocrite. Sorry, I have no patience for hypocrites.
Very judgmental, very judgmental indeed. I see denial in your posts but no real honest discussion. I'm only teaching what the bible instructs for us and you find that hypocritical. Well I guess I will chalk that up like the rest of the LDS doctrine that goes against Christ's teachings. Arrogant!

I will say a prayer for you.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And by the way, I think I can safely say that being rich can be a sin. Just like I can say being a homosexual is a sin. And I don't have to be called a hypocrite. Its all spelled out in the bible already by God.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Very judgmental, very judgmental indeed. I see denial in your posts but no real honest discussion. I'm only teaching what the bible instructs for us and you find that hypocritical. Well I guess I will chalk that up like the rest of the LDS doctrine that goes against Christ's teachings. Arrogant!

I will say a prayer for you.
Again: I asked you what YOU believe. You don’t practice what you preach and according to your own theology are a damned hypocrite. It’s that simple.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Again: I asked you what YOU believe. You don’t practice what you preach and according to your own theology are a damned hypocrite. It’s that simple.
OK well when judgment comes around maybe God will have mercy on me because I'm poor and still help the needy. Hmmm? We'll see. It is up to God if I or anyone else will be saved, not the LDS church.
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,201
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,267
3,459
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
I’m not persecuting you. But the fact that you don’t practice what YOU believe makes your entire argument hypocritical and mote.