Latter Rain

[amadeus]

Amen...I am not quite sure if you are presenting an argument to my post or adding to it in addition to mine...and what I am referring to is an even greater outpouring....His consuming fire...and His Glory...and we will be changed from glory to glory...
That's what I see in my spirit anyway and am highly anticipating it.

It can be taken either way depending on where you are in the Lord. There are undoubtedly prophecies to come with regard to the world of men and the churches of men and the Church of God, but the only thing that each of us may be sure about is our own resolve to surrender, to humble ourselves before God so that we will always be on His side. If we are on His side and continuing to work while it is Day, never mind about the night that is coming. Stay with the Light now that is leading to a greater Light, from glory to glory, now! If a person's understanding of those prophecies is wrong or even slightly askew, being on the Lord's side will still make the essential difference for him.

In 1948, a “revival” broke out in Saskatchewan, Canada, and the teachings of the Latter Rain movement were clarified. Those involved in the revival were convinced that they were on the verge of a new era, one in which the Holy Spirit would demonstrate His power in a greater way than the world had ever seen. Not even the age of the apostles, they said, had witnessed such a movement of the Holy Spirit.

I'll admit ignorance here. I don't recall before hearing about that 1948 revival. But... if each of us is letting himself be immersed in the Spirit, then God's will shall be done for us. Whether we are in such a revival among others on some other date, we cannot know... unless God reveals it to us. For if it were to occur tomorrow but I were to die tonight...? Where then is my part? My vision growing clearer as I ask and seek and knock... Who holds tomorrow? Today God has already given to me. What am I doing with it?

Luke 3:16 KJV: John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

The Spirit without measure is the fire:

Zechariah 2:5 KJV: For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

The fire is as the fire described in Daniel 3:11-27. The three Hebrews were not hurt by that fire as they walked within it with a fourth like unto the Son of God. On the other hand the strongest soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar were killed because they approached too close... They were strong as men were strong, but they were nothing before God.

This is the same fire of the flaming sword keeping men from the Tree of Life. It still kills those who are not on the Lord's side and it burns away anything still binding those who are on his side, such as the ropes which held the three Hebrews fast when they were thrown into the fire. Jesus brought to us, Life, indeed the Tree of Life, which Jesus is. He made it possible to approach it, but only if wearing the proper garment. Without such a garment we would be cast out and there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What is our covering? Adam and Eve had no covering outside of the garden, no protection so they made their own covering of fig leaves. Have men in their churches today put on fig leaves and offered them to others. I think that fig leave will burn in the fire. The Holy Spirit on the other hand is the fire!

Give God the glory!

The fire is the fire of the burning bush which does not consume the bush. It is the fire that does not consume you and me when we are walking with and in His Spirit. Are we then with and in the fire like the three Hebrews with the 4th man? It is the fire that consumed the people in Sodom and Gomorrah who had only evil ways left to them.

Our God, who loves us... indeed to those who do not know Him a consuming fire, but to those who know Him He walks with and even in them, does He not?

Give God the glory!

 

[amadeus]

How do we stop being children?

Much love!

Was that not the purpose of the five ministers mentioned as being given by God in the verses I quoted? They are to perfect us and when move toward it, that perfection, is that a maturity in Him? Consider:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:10-12

What do these things mean to us? Consider again:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[Gideons300]

How do we stop being children?

Much love!

Eat your vegetables and obey your parent?

I have three grown children. They will always be my children, but if they still wanted me to tie their shoes, I would have to be concerned. We are to grow up into Him in all things, amen?

blessings,

Gids

 

[marks]

Was that not the purpose of the five ministers mentioned as being given by God in the verses I quoted? They are to perfect us and when move toward it, that perfection, is that a maturity in Him? Consider:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:10-12

What do these things mean to us? Consider again:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Those who are mature show Christ through their lives, so those who are maturing can see it.

I guess the reason for my question, how to stop being children, is that, having received these ministries from Jesus, yet there are still so many children.

I think we benefit from having people in our lives who are both discipling us, and those whom we disciple.

These are good verses to put together in my meditations!

Much love!

 

[Heart2Soul]

It can be taken either way depending on where you are in the Lord. There are undoubtedly prophecies to come with regard to the world of men and the churches of men and the Church of God, but the only thing that each of us may be sure about is our own resolve to surrender, to humble ourselves before God so that we will always be on His side. If we are on His side and continuing to work while it is Day, never mind about the night that is coming. Stay with the Light now that is leading to a greater Light, from glory to glory, now! If a person's understanding of those prophecies is wrong or even slightly askew, being on the Lord's side will still make the essential difference for him.


I'll admit ignorance here. I don't recall before hearing about that 1948 revival. But... if each of us is letting himself be immersed in the Spirit, then God's will shall be done for us. Whether we are in such a revival among others on some other date, we cannot know... unless God reveals it to us. For if it were to occur tomorrow but I were to die tonight...? Where then is my part? My vision growing clearer as I ask and seek and knock... Who holds tomorrow? Today God has already given to me. What am I doing with it?

The fire is as the fire described in Daniel 3:11-27. The three Hebrews were not hurt by that fire as they walked within it with a fourth like unto the Son of God. On the other hand the strongest soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar were killed because they approached too close... They were strong as men were strong, but they were nothing before God.

This is the same fire of the flaming sword keeping men from the Tree of Life. It still kills those who are not on the Lord's side and it burns away anything still binding those who are on his side, such as the ropes which held the three Hebrews fast when they were thrown into the fire. Jesus brought to us, Life, indeed the Tree of Life, which Jesus is. He made it possible to approach it, but only if wearing the proper garment. Without such a garment we would be cast out and there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What is our covering? Adam and Eve had no covering outside of the garden, no protection so they made their own covering of fig leaves. Have men in their churches today put on fig leaves and offered them to others. I think that fig leave will burn in the fire. The Holy Spirit on the other hand is the fire!

Give God the glory!

The fire is the fire of the burning bush which does not consume the bush. It is the fire that does not consume you and me when we are walking with and in His Spirit. Are we then with and in the fire like the three Hebrews with the 4th man? It is the fire that consumed the people in Sodom and Gomorrah who had only evil ways left to them.

Our God, who loves us... indeed to those who do not know Him a consuming fire, but to those who know Him He walks with and even in them, does He not?

Give God the glory!

Well all I can say is I am so ready for a fresh anointing and a stronger walk with Him...

 

[Hidden In Him]

We have all we need for godly lives, overcoming sin and the flesh and the world, right now. We are instructed to put on the new man, and told that we are filled up - complete - in Christ.

So I want to counter the idea that we are waiting for something more to come that will actually enable us to live right.

Marks, I know you are caught up with discussing this with others at this point, but since it will likely come up with you and I again in the future, there's something you should understand about the verse you alluded to here.

When Paul referred to putting on the new man (singular) he was referring to the congregations putting on Christ and becoming one man together in Him, where there would be no more Jew or Gentile, free or slave, Scythian or barbarian, etc. They would become one man together spiritually.

Now, how is this achieved? It cannot IMO be achieved by some form of belief system or mental assent to it. That has no real power in it. It was achieved thru what he talked about in 1st Corinthians when talking about the body; that by each of them operating in supernatural gifts, each as the Lord enabled them, they were effectively operating and cooperating together in being directed supernaturally by ONE SPIRIT. This is why I believe we will never truly get to the place where we have "put on the new man and become complete in Him" until we return to fully operating in the gifts. Right now it is mostly theoretical. We need to reach the place where that teaching becomes a practical reality.

This is not to say we aren't believers today, and cannot serve the true and Living God, just as they did. But do we have all we need at the current time to fulfill true New Testament Christianity the way they did? I think that answer is readily apparent in the forms of Christianity we are currently practicing. We don't actually live out teachings like 1 Corinthians 12-14. We just read them and theorize about them.

 

[amadeus]

Those who are mature show Christ through their lives, so those who are maturing can see it.

I guess the reason for my question, how to stop being children, is that, having received these ministries from Jesus, yet there are still so many children.

I think we benefit from having people in our lives who are both discipling us, and those whom we disciple.

These are good verses to put together in my meditations!

Much love!

There are still so many children because some do not have anointed God directed ministered as per the Eph 4:11 verse cited. There are still so many children because many in the pew and behind the pulpits have been taught and/or teach others to quench the Holy Spirit of God rather than to walk in Him and be led by Him!

Without being led by the Spirit, memorizing the Bible will not make you grow closer to God. It will not make you become like Him. It may indeed kill you! Too bad our good friend and brother in Christ @bbryd009 is no longer here to instruct us about the problems of seeking Death more abundantly in place of the Life more abundantly that Jesus brought:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:5-6

 

[amadeus]

Well all I can say is I am so ready for a fresh anointing and a stronger walk with Him...

The stronger walk comes from the humbler walk, the surrendered walk.

"Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." Dan 3:16-17

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

 

[marks]

Marks, I know you are caught up with discussing this with others at this point, but since it will likely come up with you and I again in the future, there's something you should understand about the verse you alluded to here.

When Paul referred to putting on the new man (singular) he was referring to the congregations putting on Christ and becoming one man together in Him, where there would be no more Jew or Gentile, free or slave, Scythian or barbarian, etc. They would become one man together spiritually.

That's an interesting thought.

Would you be able to show that to me exegetically?

I see this much differently, as we are individually "in Christ", and, being individually in Christ, we have unity through Him with each other. And this is apart from our behavior. Although the we walk in the Spirit, the more fellowship we will enjoy with each other.

But even so, for instance, whether you and I are acting right or not, just the same, In Christ is neither male nor female, and so on. This is true, but then, Christians don't always live according to what is true. We're still works in process.

This is why I believe we will never truly get to the place where we have "put on the new man and become complete in Him" until we return to fully operating in the gifts. Right now it is mostly theoretical. We need to reach the place where that teaching becomes a practical reality.

So putting on the new man, that's something the church does, but individuals don't do? And that our being filled up with God depends on the church putting on it's 'new man'? That's very different from how I read these passages.

I'd be very interested in your exegesis.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

So putting on the new man, that's something the church does, but individuals don't do?

We as individuals do as well, in a sense. But the true fulfillment of the typology is not found in individualism, but in what we do as a body.

Would you be able to show that to me exegetically?

I can check again for exegetical proofs - been awhile - but one proof is in the analogy itself. Christ is the Head, and we are all individual parts of His body. We cannot all be what we are supposed to be "in Christ" until all the parts are functioning together as one, all being guided and led by the Head, and this analogy was used specifically in the context of the spiritual gifts, and how a church was to operate in them (1 Corinthians, 12-14).

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'd be very interested in your exegesis.

Regarding your verse, notice the last line:

9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in recognition according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Colossians 3:9-11)

The verb is added but rightly inferred here. When the body is truly operating in the Spirit together, they become truly one in Spirit, and Christ IS all, and in all. If a church is in division and strife, however, it is quenching the Spirit, and it cannot be said that Christ IS all. He may still be in them all, but they are not functioning as if He IS all, and in all.

The entire teaching, as elsewhere, speaks of being one body in Christ, all responding to the Headship and leadership of Christ, and thus operating as one unit, thinking the same thing, speaking the same thing, and all manifesting that "one and the same Spirit."

 

[Gideons300]

Eat your vegetables and obey your parent?

I have three grown children. They will always be my children, but if they still wanted me to tie their shoes, I would have to be concerned. We are to grow up into Him in all things, amen?

blessings,

Gids

But I certainly get your point, Mark. My three kids are all over 40, yet, no matter what, they are my children. As we are with the Lord, amen?

 

[marks]

We as individuals do as well, in a sense. But the true fulfillment of the typology is not found in individualism, but in what we do as a body.

I can check again for exegetical proofs - been awhile - but one proof is in the analogy itself. Christ is the Head, and we are all individual parts of His body. We cannot all be what we are supposed to be "in Christ" until all the parts are functioning together as one, all being guided and led by the Head, and this analogy was used specifically in the context of the spiritual gifts, and how a church was to operate in them (1 Corinthians, 12-14).

I'd have to give this some thought. But what it sounds like you are saying is that I can't become fully matured in Christ unless others are also hitting a certain level?

Perhaps some of us are actually being radically used by God as He is working on the rest of us? Perhaps even in an elementary school there is still place for stars to shine?

On a church-wide functional level, yes, the healthiest is when every part supplieth. I see putting on the new man on an entirely different level, being completely individual. That we can all put on the new man even in the most disfunctional church ever. And that we can live Christ, as we walk the works He Who knows all ordained.

Much love!

 

[Gideons300]

I'd have to give this some thought. But what it sounds like you are saying is that I can't become fully matured in Christ unless others are also hitting a certain level?

Perhaps some of us are actually being radically used by God as He is working on the rest of us? Perhaps even in an elementary school there is still place for stars to shine?

On a church-wide functional level, yes, the healthiest is when every part supplieth. I see putting on the new man on an entirely different level, being completely individual. That we can all put on the new man even in the most disfunctional church ever. And that we can live Christ, as we walk the works He Who knows all ordained.

Much love!

I agree with your thinking. However, as far as edification goes, two are better than one and a three fold cord is not easily broken. Can you imagine all your Christian brothers and sisters, walking in the joy of the Lord, praying together, worshiping together? Awesome.

blessings to you Mark,

Gids

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'd have to give this some thought. But what it sounds like you are saying is that I can't become fully matured in Christ unless others are also hitting a certain level?

Maturity? No. You can reach a tremendous level of maturity. But the body corporate cannot become fully clothed in Him so long as they are content with things as they are. He raises the dead. Until we do, then we are clearly not fully in Him yet.

I see putting on the new man on an entirely different level, being completely individual.

The individualism within Christianity is a symptom of what I am telling you we are missing. At present, the church is mostly US instead of Him. It needs to be mostly Him instead of us.

 

[marks]

The individualism within Christianity is a symptom of what I am telling you we are missing. At present, the church is mostly US instead of Him. It needs to be mostly Him instead of us.

The thing I'm talking about here is that I believe my relationship with God is boundless, and certainly is not limited by someone else's faltering faith. Only should my faith falter.

I believe that God knows the true state of the true church, and all that will happen with it. And within that context, God has preordained various works for me to walk in. That God has engineered every aspect of my life to produce the greatest amount of fruit and maturity in my life.

I'm not talking about "lone ranger" Christians, rather, that God will do His work in me, and, I pray, will use me to build up His people, as He works in their lives to bring them the maximum maturity and fruitfulness.

I agree about the symptomology of individualism, I just think it results from our own immaturity and lack of faith, not that we've not received sufficiently from the Holy Spirit.

And not that the Holy Spirit can't or doesn't work in our lives to produce immediate and dramatic changes, He does. But what I see for the most part is a progression of training us to walk in faith, trusting that Jesus has done/is doing all that is needed to be done.

When we are walking in faith, we are living the life of Christ, and are fruitful sons of God, in all manner of ways which God wills.

Is it truly fair to say, since I've never raised someone who had died, that this is because I've not received the Second Outpouring? Or that I'm lacking maturity? Or lacking in faith? (I use myself for example, not making this personal)

Isn't it just as possible that God hasn't ordained that work for me? That He'd rather I do something different?

What if that were true for the entire true church at this time? That God is doing something different?

What if we still have the full power and the full potential given by the Holy Spirit to the disciples of that day, in us? What if all that is needed is that each of us mature into to works God has for us? And while I'm asking what if, what if the quiet and unknown believer who is praying and giving to others serving in some quiet way, what if that is exactly what God desires for them?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He raises the dead. Until we do, then we are clearly not fully in Him yet.

He also walked on water, and was transfigured before their eyes. He raised Himself from the dead. Who does that?

Do we raise the dead when we want, or when He wants? When He wants, naturally! When does He want?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree with your thinking. However, as far as edification goes, two are better than one and a three fold cord is not easily broken. Can you imagine all your Christian brothers and sisters, walking in the joy of the Lord, praying together, worshiping together? Awesome.

blessings to you Mark,

Gids

It IS awesome!

We used to have these "men's conferences", attendance 15-20,000 in an enclosed arena. Such wonderful worship!! I so miss that! I so look forward to when we can share that again, maybe not until in the heavenlies!

Can I imagine it? Yes and no. My imaginations fall so far short I'm sure!

As far as edification goes . . . this is why we need to be in fellowship with other Christians, so we can share our gifts with each other.

The true edification comes to us from within, from the Holy Spirit, and through His Word. We receive from the gifts of others, and certainly that as others mature, as we mature, more are being able to be served by our gifts.

But let me ask you . . .

If my brothers and sisters around me lack maturity to be consistenly fruitful in their spiritual gifts, will that mean that I'll miss out on the ministry from the Holy Spirit?

I don't think so myself.

For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, and are the called, according to His purpose. All things! Even the round and round doubtful disputations! If only to teach me the futility. But nothing is missed. All things work together for my good.

Think in terms of disciplining, Hebrews 12. He'll do it, and it will work. That's God's commitment to me, and it's not dependant on anyone around me.

All the promises of God to me, none of them are dependant on what others do or don't do. I'm not looking any place else but to God. I'm not looking for some future day when God will give us more of His Holy Spirit so we can finally be who we're supposed to be.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Regarding your verse, notice the last line:

9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in recognition according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Colossians 3:9-11)

The verb is added but rightly inferred here. When the body is truly operating in the Spirit together, they become truly one in Spirit, and Christ IS all, and in all. If a church is in division and strife, however, it is quenching the Spirit, and it cannot be said that Christ IS all. He may still be in them all, but they are not functioning as if He IS all, and in all.

The entire teaching, as elsewhere, speaks of being one body in Christ, all responding to the Headship and leadership of Christ, and thus operating as one unit, thinking the same thing, speaking the same thing, and all manifesting that "one and the same Spirit."

When the Church is "of one accord" there is Power there.

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
(Act 1:14)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (Acts 2:1)
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, (Acts 2:46)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (Acts 4:24)
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (Acts 5;12)
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. (Philippians 2:2)

Whatever the latter rain is, it is tied intricately to being of one accord and of singleness of heart.

 

[amadeus]

He also walked on water, and was transfigured before their eyes. He raised Himself from the dead. Who does that?

Do we raise the dead when we want, or when He wants? When He wants, naturally! When does He want?

Much love!

When we are walking in Him, in the Spirit, are we not walking on water? Don't think of the Pacific or Atlantic Oceans filled with all sort of fishes and such. Think rather on the oceans filled with their dead, their low life creatures, dominated, led by their own beastly ways. Have we killed all of our own beasts so that now we walk above them with our Lord?

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city," Prov. 9:1-3

And where is this Wisdom? Have we not encountered it or Him at all?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." Psalm 111:10

Consider that Peter walked on top of the water until he looked away from the face of Jesus and down at the water beneath fearing those things that may kill the body of a man.