LAW IS NEITHER OBEYED DISOBEYED NOR BROKEN / AN EXISTENTIAL ONTOLOGICAL DISPROOF OF LAW

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Duane Clinton Meehan

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Pro-Me-ism, an condition every "self" has is the main impactor of civility. The fact that a society consists of many selfs having to coexist amid each other's selfish goals and viewpoints is often a detriment to civility. Law regulates what selfish behaviors will and will not be tolerated within a given society. Whether codified or not, laws will exist. They'll just be spoken about using terms like "unwritten rules," "norms," or "mores."



So say ancient writers. However, the existence and will of this supposed being referred to as Jehovah has not been demonstrated to exist in reality.
Only human beings regulate their own conduct, not rules, norms, mores, or laws, none of which are acting agents.
 
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marks

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In a traffic ticket case once I had a judge tell me he was bound and determined by law; hence it is practitioners of law who make the case that their actions arise and are caused by law. Just think about a bit, every act of sworn police and prosecutorial officers is claimed to causally arise via law; all persons mistakenly presuppose law causes action and inaction.

It is not consistent to hold that law regulates acts but does not determine that regulation; being regulated is being determined.
Hi Duane,

Still thinking about this stuff . . .

It's a good point, but I'd like to mention the difference between causing something through prescription compared to a causal act. We have the term "judicial activism" to signify when the courts don't actually follow the prescription, but instead do something different. Sometimes later codified, othertimes overturned.

Robocop would be a better example of action caused by law.

I still think the idea behind God's law is for us to throw up our hands in frustration and despair crying out, "I can't do it!" And then we turn towards the One Who can do all things for and through us.

Much love!
 

Duane Clinton Meehan

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But I like that word! I learned it from This thread!

Thank you @Duane Clinton Meehan ! Not that it changes me ontologically, but every little bit helps!
'onto' meaning being; 'logos' meaning logic, thus, the logic of being. 'Onto' refers to human being, 'ontic' to non-human being.

Interesting, ''...changes me ontologically...'', I wonder how on earth that happens!?
 

marks

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'onto' meaning being; 'logos' meaning logic, thus, the logic of being. 'Onto' refers to human being, 'ontic' to non-human being.

More learning! :)

Interesting, ''...changes me ontologically...'', I wonder how on earth that happens!?

Jesus got it right . . . you must be born again. That is a total ontological change, from being born out of Adam's humanity, to being born from God. Completely different.

Much love!
 

Duane Clinton Meehan

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Hi Duane,

Still thinking about this stuff . . .

It's a good point, but I'd like to mention the difference between causing something through prescription compared to a causal act. We have the term "judicial activism" to signify when the courts don't actually follow the prescription, but instead do something different. Sometimes later codified, othertimes overturned.

Robocop would be a better example of action caused by law.

I still think the idea behind God's law is for us to throw up our hands in frustration and despair crying out, "I can't do it!" And then we turn towards the One Who can do all things for and through us.

Much love!
In a legal setting the activists would have had to be able to cite some precedent or other to support their disagreement; there are usually at least two streams of development regarding a given point of law.
I just watched a lecture on YouTube where the lecturer claimed that Matthew deems Christ the second Moses, and, that Christ is saying to obey both the law, and, furthermore, His own injunctions when He said, e.g., 'the Law says thou shalt not murder, but I say unto you, do not even get angry...', et.al. That is heavy, and, I think, correct...
 

Truth OT

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It is not consistent to hold that law regulates acts but does not determine that regulation; being regulated is being determined.

Boundaries don't create a path, they instead restrict where the path can go.

Just think about a bit, every act of sworn police and prosecutorial officers is claimed to causally arise via law; all persons mistakenly presuppose law causes action and inaction.

Expectedly so as they are employed the the legal system. Laws are enforceable rules to regulates whatever game is being played. Take away ALL of the rules and the game can become chaotic and perhaps even unrecognizable. Rules help keep a semblance of desired order.
 

marks

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In a legal setting the activists would have had to be able to cite some precedent or other to support their disagreement; there are usually at least two streams of development regarding a given point of law.
I just watched a lecture on YouTube where the lecturer claimed that Matthew deems Christ the second Moses, and, that Christ is saying to obey both the law, and, furthermore, His own injunctions when He said, e.g., 'the Law says thou shalt not murder, but I say unto you, do not even get angry...', et.al. That is heavy, and, I think, correct...
Another example of Law being prescriptive and not deterministic is in jury nulification.

A second Moses, interesting! I've not heard that before. I think you are in fact correct, Jesus kept the letter and the spirit of the law.

I know 1 Corinthians 15 refers to Jesus as "the last Adam". Two humanities.

Much love!
 

marks

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In truth, his posts more often relate to his higher esteem of Epistemology...… and he knows it.
I realize that, and in the quest for knowledge, the one who truly seeks that which is important will truly find that which is important.

Much love!
 

Willie T

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I realize that, and in the quest for knowledge, the one who truly seeks that which is important will truly find that which is important.

Much love!
And, the Pharisees fell flat on their faces thinking that was their answer. The point is, are we seeking with our heads, or with our hearts?
 
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marks

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And, the Pharisees fell flat on their faces thinking that was their answer. The point is, are we seeking with our heads, or with our hearts?
My thought isn't so much how we're going about it, rather, is it real? I'm sure we're saying the same thing differently.

If we think we've got all the answers, then we're not seeking, are we? I'm hoping @Duane Clinton Meehan will yet find, or, rather, will be found.

Much love!
 
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Duane Clinton Meehan

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Boundaries don't create a path, they instead restrict where the path can go.



Expectedly so as they are employed the the legal system. Laws are enforceable rules to regulates whatever game is being played. Take away ALL of the rules and the game can become chaotic and perhaps even unrecognizable. Rules help keep a semblance of desired order.
Perhaps you've noticed that I repeatedly refer to law in the context of punishment. We are punishing persons in the name of law which honestly is not determinative of police/prosecutorial/judicial conduct, which state of affairs is graver than a football team being penalized ten yards, or a monopoly player being sent to jail. I am not saying that murderers should not be dealt with, however, it must be an honest dealing, and, to for a judge to say that he is condemning a person to death for murder by law, is dishonest...so, I am in pursuit of realizing an alternative honest approach to having civilizational civility...
 

Truth OT

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A fact we must face is that regulations and laws are set up not just to protect people and nature, but also to protect the culture and values of those with the voice to affect cultural norms. An underlying effect is the punishment of dissidents that don't adhere to or respect what the dominant voices value.

Perhaps you've noticed that I repeatedly refer to law in the context of punishment. We are punishing persons in the name of law which honestly is not determinative of police/prosecutorial/judicial conduct,...
I am in pursuit of realizing an alternative honest approach to having civilizational civility...

The punitive measures we employ could definitely use some reevaluation. Punishment has not proven to be the best deterrent. Studies show that many criminals have a disconnect from those they perpetrate acts against. If we could better bridge that gap through education, fostering a two-way acknowledgment, etc., the crime numbers will likely decrease.
 

Duane Clinton Meehan

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A fact we must face is that regulations and laws are set up not just to protect people and nature, but also to protect the culture and values of those with the voice to affect cultural norms. An underlying effect is the punishment of dissidents that don't adhere to or respect what the dominant voices value.



The punitive measures we employ could definitely use some reevaluation. Punishment has not proven to be the best deterrent. Studies show that many criminals have a disconnect from those they perpetrate acts against. If we could better bridge that gap through education, fostering a two-way acknowledgment, etc., the crime numbers will likely decrease.
TruthOT;
''A fact we must face is that regulations and laws are set up not just to protect people and nature, but also to protect the culture and values of those with the voice to affect cultural norms.'' Excellent rejoinder.

In the long term, if the grassroots could learn the actual ontological structure of the mode of origin of human action, we could all be authentic/honest in regard to giving the true future reasons for our actions; if our objective is to protect persons, and indeed it is, we can ultimately do so more efficiently by facing the fact that regulations and laws are not highly efficient means to that end. I am simply suggesting that we all raise ourselves, via education, up to the possession of a reflective understanding of our ontological freedom, which will uplift our natural nobility, and free us to constitute an honest civilization, wherein we are not continually kidding ourselves that law is the central avenue to doing civility and decency; if the downtrodden and ignorant persons, who are currently committing seriously antisocial acts, are uplifted and ennobled via education regarding the structure of their own humanity, there is a better chance of emancipating ourselves from the radically criminal conduct which is too common among us today...the problem, however, appears to be that common persons have extraordinary difficulty even imagining how they are possibly going to understand all this ontological stuff, which, indeed, is difficult; however, even I, if I were to concentrate, could possibly reduce it to simpler terms...which is what WillieT has been attempting to drill into my thick head all along...
Duane
 
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Truth OT

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the problem, however, appears to be that common persons have extraordinary difficulty even imagining how they are possibly going to understand all this ontological stuff,

The problems are many and vast and have been enhanced not only by a lack of education but also due in part to miseducation. We have been miseducated about who and what we are and we have been miseducated about what is actually attempted to be protected by laws. People aren't the focus as much as sustaining a preferred way of life for the people under the law.
 

Willie T

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TruthOT;
''A fact we must face is that regulations and laws are set up not just to protect people and nature, but also to protect the culture and values of those with the voice to affect cultural norms.'' Excellent rejoinder.

In the long term, if the grassroots could learn the actual ontological structure of the mode of origin of human action, we could all be authentic/honest in regard to giving the true future reasons for our actions; if our objective is to protect persons, and indeed it is, we can ultimately do so more efficiently by facing the fact that regulations and laws are not highly efficient means to that end. I am simply suggesting that we all raise ourselves, via education, up to the possession of a reflective understanding of our ontological freedom, which will uplift our natural nobility, and free us to constitute an honest civilization, wherein we are not continually kidding ourselves that law is the central avenue to doing civility and decency; if the downtrodden and ignorant persons, who are currently committing seriously antisocial acts, are uplifted and ennobled via education regarding the structure of their own humanity, there is a better chance of emancipating ourselves from the radically criminal conduct which is too common among us today...the problem, however, appears to be that common persons have extraordinary difficulty even imagining how they are possibly going to understand all this ontological stuff, which, indeed, is difficult; however, even I, if I were to concentrate, could possibly reduce it to simpler terms...which is what WillieT has been attempting to drill into my thick head all along...
Duane
"Yes", from my very first post to you when I asked if you could not simply speak in English. Yelling at Frenchmen all day long, in Italian, only proves you learned Italian. But, it never gets your point across.
 

Duane Clinton Meehan

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"Yes", from my very first post to you when I asked if you could not simply speak in English. Yelling at Frenchmen all day long, in Italian, only proves you learned Italian. But, it never gets your point across.
Yes, although, I have been, actually, all along seeking persons who can follow in my Italian, and, TruthOT, though he may not be totally familiar with the idiosyncratic language of existential phenomenology, is clearly an incisively intelligent and perfectly well-written, welcome, intellectual, capable of building rapport.
Duane
 

Willie T

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Yes, although, I have been, actually, all along seeking persons who can follow in my Italian, and, TruthOT, though he may not be totally familiar with the idiosyncratic language of existential phenomenology, is clearly an incisively intelligent and perfectly well-written, welcome, intellectual, capable of building rapport.
Duane
That's interesting. Rather than swinging your esoteric bat on a field populated with like-minded fielders who would catch every ball you might happen to hit, you chose to come here to the minors where you hoped you could be the biggest fish in a small pond.
That is extremely interesting. You seem to be seeking, in actuality, just the opposite of what you claim.
 

Duane Clinton Meehan

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That's interesting. Rather than swinging your esoteric bat on a field populated with like-minded fielders who would catch every ball you might happen to hit, you chose to come here to the minors where you hoped you could be the biggest fish in a small pond.
That is extremely interesting. You seem to be seeking, in actuality, just the opposite of what you claim.
I have posted on philosophy; atheist; police; and,attorney forums; Quora; here; yea, sure, I am designing not to interact with other human beings, but, instead, to appear to be superior to others!? No, that is not my objective, my objective is to interact in constructive criticism with other minds regarding my particular perspective concerning law. I had no idea what ilk of mentality I would encounter here! Persons from all over the earth are responding via this forum and, their mental caliber is manifesting higher and higher; nonetheless, you repeatedly insist on doing ad hominem disparagement and, upon basely/unjustly ascribing ignoble motives to my rationale for being here!
 
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