LAW IS NEITHER OBEYED DISOBEYED NOR BROKEN / AN EXISTENTIAL ONTOLOGICAL DISPROOF OF LAW

[bbyrd009]

The Ten Commandments, for instance, were given for very specific purposes, e.g., to prevent killing; to prevent idol worship; to obviate adultery; to prevent taking the Lord's name in vain. Jehovah was not,

the ten commandments were, jehovah was not, fwiw id point out in passing that this is likely "satans dialectic," but anyway we all pretty much speak that way in the west i guess

anyway the second five of the decalogue, at least, likely came from or even predate Hammurabi, king of Babylon, despite what we are taught. Hard sell to a believer but you could verify that pretty easy i guess

religious belief is not permitted to dictate human conduct is to proceed within the Republic

religious belief is not permitted to dictate how, you mean, Duane, and btw concepts are never "permitted" anyway, but fwiw i would arrive at a better working def of "religion" too, as it has been remarked that religion and politics are very close cousins at least. Iow contemplate that everything the republic does is engendered by "religious belief," even if it is called something else maybe

Oh, yea, sure, I can't live without having to impress a lot of radically limited slave mentalities, who delusionally claim to be indwelled by a putative Deity which precisely is not themselves (thus simultaneously, contradictorily, being both Deity and non-Deity); are absolutely repulsed by the fact that they are human beings; and, are terrified of the task of facing and doing their personal freedom for, and by, themselves.

gotta say this part rings true i guess, zing

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

You are complaining about being insulted by Christians while being insulting to Christians (as seen above). That's rich.

Why are you even wasting your time on a Christian forum? And why is anyone here wasting their time on this thread of yours with its crazy title?

I came here in peace to present an ontologically-based critique of the notion of law, law being relevant to Christian thought; and, I have been exceeding polite and respectful. I began to be repeatedly insulted as a person, instead of having my position constructively criticized, thus, I struck back in the selfsame mode, i.e., with deep insult against Christian misconduct, AFTER, being insulted and abused on an ongoing basis.

I live in a country wherein I can think and write freely. I originally did not deem it a waste of time to address the human beings on this forum, regarding my thinking in regard to the reason why law is inefficacious among men; now, after encountering an ongoing misconduct at the hand of Christians, I see that it is indeed a waste of time to attempt to engage in a dialectic with Christians, for they are far too uneducated to be able to do so, and, can only, for the most part, issue insulting attack against one's person.

I left. I was gone. Quit. Done. Fed-up. Then, I got a kind apology, and, was drawn back. Now, next, I am being abused mistreated and insulted again, via the remark that the title of my OP is ''crazy'', hence, once again, barbaric misconduct is being exhibited against me, via what appears to be a complete lack of a sense of common propriety. For such a ''waste of time'', this thread has been, and is, a very active thread...nonetheless, I am not getting what I am here for, i.e., feedback regarding my OP; I am only getting insult! Christians?!

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

the ten commandments were, jehovah was not, fwiw id point out in passing that this is likely "satans dialectic," but anyway we all pretty much speak that way in the west i guess

anyway the second five of the decalogue, at least, likely came from or even predate Hammurabi, king of Babylon, despite what we are taught. Hard sell to a believer but you could verify that pretty easy i guess

religious belief is not permitted to dictate how, you mean, Duane, and btw concepts are never "permitted" anyway, but fwiw i would arrive at a better working def of "religion" too, as it has been remarked that religion and politics are very close cousins at least. Iow contemplate that everything the republic does is engendered by "religious belief," even if it is called something else maybe

gotta say this part rings true i guess, zing

Yes, indeed, thank you double zero nine, good editing, I left out a word; but you saw its present absence. Thank you for your agreement on that one point. Seems like I am, in the course of these interactions, writing a critique of normative Christian conduct, and, being more and more Christian-like myself, continually insulting the Other to the best of my ability!
Duane

 

[Willie T]

I came here in peace to present an ontologically-based critique of the notion of law, law being relevant to Christian thought; and, I have been exceeding polite and respectful. I began to be repeatedly insulted as a person, instead of having my position constructively criticized, thus, I struck back in the selfsame mode, i.e., with deep insult against Christian misconduct, AFTER, being insulted and abused on an ongoing basis.

I live in a country wherein I can think and write freely. I originally did not deem it a waste of time to address the human beings on this forum, regarding my thinking in regard to the reason why law is inefficacious among men; now, after encountering an ongoing misconduct at the hand of Christians, I see that it is indeed a waste of time to attempt to engage in a dialectic with Christians, for they are far too uneducated to be able to do so, and, can only, for the most part, issue insulting attack against one's person.

I left. I was gone. Quit. Done. Fed-up. Then, I got a kind apology, and, was drawn back. Now, next, I am being abused mistreated and insulted again, via the remark that the title of my OP is ''crazy'', hence, once again, barbaric misconduct is being exhibited against me, via what appears to be a complete lack of a sense of common propriety. For such a ''waste of time'', this thread has been, and is, a very active thread...nonetheless, I am not getting what I am here for, i.e., feedback regarding my OP; I am only getting insult! Christians?!

As long as you keep on acting like a spoiled arrogant child, you are going to just perpetuate those responses. Simply count the number of people who all see you the same way.. THAT should tell you something.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, indeed, thank you double zero nine, good editing, I left out a word; but you saw it in its absence. Thank you for your agreement on that one point. Seems like I am, in the course of these interactions, writing a critique of normative Christian conduct, and, being more and more Christian-like myself, continually insulting the Other to the best of my ability!
Duane

"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" i guess, D
SClemens

 

[Enow]

He doesn't know Jesus Christ personally. He doesn't know Who he is talking about when he is just looking at it from a history standpoint catering to a specific thesis he wanted to present about Christians & Christianity by them. It is like watching a debate class but there is only one side being presented here and he thinks he has won, but that is his own delusion.

His big education was and is a complete waste. All his education ever done for him was make him a clever devil. Wisdom from the Lord is how a Christian will see that truth.

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" i guess, D
SClemens

Mark Twain was a wonderfully humorous person, and, with that quirp he appears to perhaps both agree and disagree with Christianity!

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

He doesn't know Jesus Christ personally. He doesn't know Who he is talking about when he is just looking at it from a history standpoint catering to a specific thesis he wanted to present about Christians & Christianity by them. It is like watching a debate class but there is only one side being presented here and he thinks he has won, but that is his own delusion.

His big education was and is a complete waste. All his education ever done for him was make him a clever devil. Wisdom from the Lord is how a Christian will see that truth.

Enow;
You do not know the person's history; he might have been saved in his youth. I, personally, had a fine being-saved experience at age nineteen; I literally felt a hand in the small of my back, urging me to walk forward and accept Christ at the invocation. The question is (and I need your opinion here) am I still ''saved'', and, I think it would necessarily be so that I am still a saved person; it is just after more than fifty years, I have encountered a raft of divers viewpoints regarding what it is to be a human being, and I can even see serious mistakes in thinking that Jehovah/Christ made...

What, at this time in my life, I find totally amazing, is that per your Christian perspective, you have, in the Bible, a book which has, ready made, all the answers to life, the universe, and everything (as Douglas Adams puts it)! It simply cannot be the case that writings done many thousands of years ago, can possibly serve as the absolute final word in regard to everything human, for human existence is an ongoing state of affairs and does not remain static/homogenous.
Duane

 

[Enow]

Enow;
You do not know the person's history; he might have been saved in his youth.

That may be true. God only knows but somewhere along the way, if he was a believer, he did not continue in His words to be rooted in Him for why he fell away.

I, personally, had a fine being-saved experience at age nineteen; I literally felt a hand in the small of my back, urging me to walk forward and accept Christ at the invocation. The question is (and I need your opinion here) am I still ''saved'', and, I think it would necessarily be so that I am still a saved person; it is just after more than fifty years, I have encountered a raft of divers viewpoints regarding what it is to be a human being, and I can even see serious mistakes in thinking that Jehovah/Christ made...

When you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead, then you were saved. You may have been saved way before that invocation moment, FYI.

As for your supernatural experience, you have to explain this invocation, what you meant by that, and how they did it. A lot of believers had believed in Jesus Christ long before some supernatural phenomenon came along that made them think that was when they were saved. They have been led astray, but I do not know if what you had experienced falls in that category or not, but I am suspicious enough to think that it does.

What, at this time in my life, I find totally amazing, is that per your Christian perspective, you have, in the Bible, a book which has, ready made, all the answers to life, the universe, and everything (as Douglas Adams puts it)! It simply cannot be the case that writings done many thousands of years ago, can possibly serve as the absolute final word in regard to everything human, for human existence is an ongoing state of affairs and does not remain static/homogenous.
Duane

I can honestly say that you have not continued in His words to be rooted in Him or else you would not have developed a critical mind looking for excuses not to believe and thus be offended because of the word and so easily fallen away rather than asking Him for the answers in His words.

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But I urge you to go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to seek the answers for those things that turned you away from Him.

You can ask me questions and maybe God is willing to use me or someone else here to help you understand them, but in the event that I am no longer online, no matter who helps you or me, you should rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to confirm the Biblical answers to you.

I'll say that one more time. You are still saved and He still abides in you as per 2 Timothy 2:10-13 for why you are called to go before that throne of grace for help ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ) to discern the lies and the errors that turned you away from Him in order to depart from the iniquity of unbelief as Paul gives an example of how a believer had err from the truthy & had his faith overthrown in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 .

 

[bbyrd009]

Mark Twain was a wonderfully humorous person, and, with that quirp he appears to perhaps both agree and disagree with Christianity!

Christianity as we define it now is really the Cult of Sol Invictus i guess, ppl believing they will be "going" Somewhere Special bc Yah respects their person, is the way Scripture puts it...one way. If you dig a pit for others, you end up in it yourself, No one has ever gone up to heaven... etc, all these are ignored? So yeh

 

[Renniks]

Renniks;
I am here to explain why law is not in fact determinative of human conduct in a country wherein we base our civilization upon law. Our putatively law-mediated Republic is, Constitutionally, secular, i.e., religious belief is not permitted to dictate human conduct is to proceed within the Republic, nonetheless, Renniks, everything you propose entails the absolute application of Christian dogma to the conduct of a Constitutionally secular society.
Duane

The Constitution was based on biblical principles. The people who wrote it were Christian thinkers. We can't dictate what religion anyone should be in our country. That doesn't mean our whole system wasn't based on God's laws.

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

That may be true. God only knows but somewhere along the way, if he was a believer, he did not continue in His words to be rooted in Him for why he fell away.



When you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead, then you were saved. You may have been saved way before that invocation moment, FYI.

As for your supernatural experience, you have to explain this invocation, what you meant by that, and how they did it. A lot of believers had believed in Jesus Christ long before some supernatural phenomenon came along that made them think that was when they were saved. They have been led astray, but I do not know if what you had experienced falls in that category or not, but I am suspicious enough to think that it does.



I can honestly say that you have not continued in His words to be rooted in Him or else you would not have developed a critical mind looking for excuses not to believe and thus be offended because of the word and so easily fallen away rather than asking Him for the answers in His words.

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But I urge you to go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to seek the answers for those things that turned you away from Him.

You can ask me questions and maybe God is willing to use me or someone else here to help you understand them, but in the event that I am no longer online, no matter who helps you or me, you should rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to confirm the Biblical answers to you.

I'll say that one more time. You are still saved and He still abides in you as per 2 Timothy 2:10-13 for why you are called to go before that throne of grace for help ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ) to discern the lies and the errors that turned you away from Him in order to depart from the iniquity of unbelief as Paul gives an example of how a believer had err from the truthy & had his faith overthrown in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 .

Enow;
I completely appreciate that you took the time and energy and reflectivity to respond to my fundamental question regarding my salvation; your insightful reply stimulates me to see that I have not in fact actually ever turned away from the pursuit of reflecting upon scripture and Christian dogma, else I would not have so fully engaged in thinking intently regarding law, and the scriptural employment thereof. Certainly there is something supremely central, on Earth, to scriptural considerations, and, I, with my particular educational background, will, perhaps, achieve significant further insight into scripture, via this precious and significant interaction with purely diamond Christians alike yourself, Amadeus, DNB, Marks, 009, and Renniks, unto my edification. I am in a state wherein I am whipsawed between higher education/philosophy, and, scriptural pure assertion; and, it is your responsibility as a sort of David, to attempt to stone and defeat, via reason, my ontologically-grounded Goliath disproof of the deity of Jehovah/Christ, and, of Law; --- you are thus challenged to overthrow my disproof of the deity of Jehovah/Christ/Law, else, as an accredited scholar, I have achieved viable critique of Jehovah/Christ's world-view. I am being entirely authentic and am not inauthentically playing a flippant game with Christians; for, the particular structure of my own salvation experience is genuinely the product of the most profoundly powerful Man of God whom I have ever encountered, who preached the sermon whereby I was saved; he was an independent Anabaptist, who established his own neighborhood church, and, subsequently, nurtured me in the Word for many years...so, I posses a peculiarly potent ensemble of notions, including both Christian and secular intellectual instruments, whereby, I am possibly constituted to accomplish innovation regarding whether, or not, the extant structure of our American sociosphere, significantly grounded and structured upon the basis of ancient Biblical-thought, is indeed an absolutely honest approach to being authentically human; for, honesty/authenticity is the primemost cardinal consideration within estimating whether, or not, we Americans have, in fact, made a civilization based upon ontologically true and genuine Biblical notions; even though we Americans pretend to Constitutionally divorce Biblical/religious precepts, from establishing our particular American pursuit of attaining absolute interpersonal decency, as an ideal/perfect American purely civil, secular, Constitutional civilization.
Duane

I will continue to study your most recent edifying response to my request for your assistance, and, I will respond piecemeal, as I read and study and think about the structure of your kind reply.

 

[Enow]

Enow;
I completely appreciate that you took the time and energy and reflectivity to respond to my fundamental question regarding my salvation; your insightful reply stimulates me to see that I have not in fact actually ever turned away from the pursuit of reflecting upon scripture and Christian dogma, else I would not have reflected so intently regarding law, and the scriptural employment thereof. Certainly there is something supremely central to scriptural considerations, and, I, with my particular educational background, will, perhaps, achieve significant further insight into scripture, via this precious and significant interaction with purely diamond Christians alike yourself and Amadeus, unto my edification. I am in a state wherein I am whipsawed between higher education/philosophy, and, scriptural pure assertion; and, it is your responsibility as a sort of David, to attempt to defeat, via reason, my ontologically grounded Goliath disproof of the deity of Jehovah/Christ, and. of Law; you are thus challenged to overthrow my disproof of the deity of Jehovah/Christ/Law, else, as an accredited scholar, I have achieved viable critique of Jehovah/Christ's world-view. I am being entirely authentic and am not inauthentically playing a flippant game with Christians; for, the particular structure of my own salvation experience is genuinely the product of the most profoundly powerful Man of God whom I have ever encountered, who preached the sermon whereby I was saved, was in independent Anabaptist who established his own neighborhood church, and, subsequently, nurtured me in the Word for many years...so, I posses a peculiarly potent ensemble of notions, including both Christian and secular intellectual instruments, whereby, I am possibly constituted to accomplish innovation regarding whether, or not, the extant structure of our American sociosphere is an absolutely honest approach to being authentically human.

I will continue to study your most recent response to my request for your assistance, and, I will respond piecemeal as I read and study and think about the structure of your kind reply.
Duane

Well, if by chance you should read this; for how ever long you going to be away in your studies, I would like to point out an oversight by most Christians today about the deity of Jesus Christ.

Jesus says that no man has seen God the Father, but the Son has ( John 1:18 & John 6:46 )

Jesus said that scripture testify of Him ( John 5:39-40 ) and that Moses had written about Him ( John 5:46-47 ).

Jesus told the Jews that Abraham saw Him in His day and His answer to their disbelief was for why they sought to stone Him ( John 8:56-59 )

I would think Abraham was glad to see Him in that day when later on after He ate and drank with them that He had said that Sara would have a son in Genesis 18 at this link in the KJV. Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 18 - King James Version

There were other times the Lord had appeared to Abraham and that was in Genesis 12:7 & Genesis 17:1.

Then the Lord appeared to Isaac in Genesis 26:1-2

Then the Lord appeared to Jacob as Jacob named that place where he had wrestled with the Lord face to face in Genesis 32:24-30

So while it is odd where I find believers that do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, they are overlooking those verses as well as the ones at His trial for why He was condemned for blasphemy for answering the question if He was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Indeed, that was not the only time He had declared His deity. He did it once before.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

I hope the Lord Jesus Christ will help you find the answers you seek so you can believe in Him again as your Savior before the Bridegroom comes.

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

The Constitution was based on biblical principles. The people who wrote it were Christian thinkers. We can't dictate what religion anyone should be in our country. That doesn't mean our whole system wasn't based on God's laws.

009;
Yes, agreed; yet, since law truly is not efficient to determine a human being's conduct, and thus, we, being entirely mistaken in thinking of law as a means to civil civilization, may, now, search, purely theoretically, for an alternate means to civilization; and I am betting that our human ontological structure is the correct template whereby to form that new ilk of civil, humane, civilization, for, we have nothing but our Being to work the problem out with, by.
Duane

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

Well, if by chance you should read this; for how ever long you going to be away in your studies, I would like to point out an oversight by most Christians today about the deity of Jesus Christ.

Jesus says that no man has seen God the Father, but the Son has ( John 1:18 & John 6:46 )

Jesus said that scripture testify of Him ( John 5:39-40 ) and that Moses had written about Him ( John 5:46-47 ).

Jesus told the Jews that Abraham saw Him in His day and His answer to their disbelief was for why they sought to stone Him ( John 8:56-59 )

I would think Abraham was glad to see Him in that day when later on after He ate and drank with them that He had said that Sara would have a son in Genesis 18 at this link in the KJV. Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 18 - King James Version

There were other times the Lord had appeared to Abraham and that was in Genesis 12:7 & Genesis 17:1.

Then the Lord appeared to Isaac in Genesis 26:1-2

Then the Lord appeared to Jacob as Jacob named that place where he had wrestled with the Lord face to face in Genesis 32:24-30

So while it is odd where I find believers that do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, they are overlooking those verses as well as the ones at His trial for why He was condemned for blasphemy for answering the question if He was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Indeed, that was not the only time He had declared His deity. He did it once before.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

I hope the Lord Jesus Christ will help you find the answers you seek so you can believe in Him again as your Savior before the Bridegroom comes.

Enow;
Law/Punishment is a function of an outmoded Sovereign mode of society, wherein a King rules over subaltern Subject persons via law; hence Jehovah deeming His People to be beings both lesser and subject to Him, ruled by His law; thus, arises the state of affairs wherein subaltern Christians deem Christ their Lord, which is radically repugnant to me, for, I absolutely cannot, will not, live as a subject subordinate to and wholly dependent upon a Lord, which Lord/Subject paradigm is precisely the Biblical/Christian sociospheric model, which I, personally, am wholeheartedly unable to undergo; therefore, I cannot, will not, resign my freedom of thought, via subscribing to the Christian model of life, wherein I would perceive myself as a mere subordinate Subject of a Christ king, whereby I am entirely slavishly directed by the thought/word of a being other than myself.
Duane

 

[Renniks]

009;
Yes, agreed; yet, since law truly is not efficient to determine a human being's conduct, and thus, we, being entirely mistaken in thinking of law as a means to civil civilization, may, now, search, purely theoretically, for an alternate means to civilization; and I am betting that our human ontological structure is the correct template whereby to form that new ilk of civil, humane, civilization, for, we have nothing but our Being to work the problem out with, by.
Duane

I don't know who you are addressing here, but our natural tendency as humans is to self destruction. Even the Indian tribes had laws.

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

I don't know who you are addressing here, but our natural tendency as humans is to self destruction. Even the Indian tribes had laws.

I am addressing the entire world. Our natural bent is to self-preservation. It is not important which of all societies had or have law, the concern I entertain is that law is not actually an originative source of human conduct, and, we are kidding ourselves when we assert that it is.

 

[Enow]

Enow;
Law/Punishment is a function of an outmoded Sovereign mode of society, wherein a King rules over subaltern Subject persons via law; hence Jehovah deeming His People to be beings both lesser and subject to Him, ruled by His law; thus, arises the state of affairs wherein subaltern Christians deem Christ their Lord, which is radically repugnant to me, for, I absolutely cannot, will not, live as a subject subordinate to and wholly dependent upon a Lord, which Lord/Subject paradigm is precisely the Biblical/Christian sociospheric model, which I, personally, am wholeheartedly unable to undergo; therefore, I cannot, will not, resign my freedom of thought, via subscribing to the Christian model of life, wherein I would perceive myself as a mere subordinate Subject of a Christ king, whereby I am entirely slavishly directed by the thought/word of a being other than myself.
Duane

When Adam and Eve had sinned by eating the forbidden fruit from the knowledge of good and evil, they now know as we all do now what is outside the will of God; nothing good.

Sin pollutes and corrupts and gets worse and worse. Harboring even sinful thoughts can defile a man and soon tempt the man to commit sin.

Sin has people in bondage. Sin can bring Christians in bondage again where they will be in such a worse sinful state than when they were before they were saved.

Let us consider what you are espousing. For anyone to agree with your espousing, then they would have to submit, right? Because deviating from your espousing would not bring the desired result for submitting and you would point that out to them.

So using liberty as a cloak for submitting to your espousing can not be any different than one submitting to Christ. The difference betwen you two is that effor as in any other religion or free thinkers is an effort on your part to submit to whereas submitting to Christ is surrendering to Him, trusting Him to help them to follow Him to be good and to do good. That is how we get to know Him and the power of His resurrection & that is good.

So are we in bondage to doing the law? No for that is not how we are to live, let alone follow Him by the religious flesh and will power.

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.... 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

So do we live in sin as in doing whatever we want? No.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Having been a dog that had returned to his vomit, and afflicted by the forces of darkness (scary ), I am grateful that the Lord had delevered me from my habitual sin and helped set me free from my wicked imaginations too as well as delivering me from the evil one. I trust Him to continue to keep me from falling and to present me faultless to His glory.

So no matter what; you either submit to Whom is good, Jesus Christ, or find out the hard way that the only other submission that exists is not good at all.

 

[Duane Clinton Meehan]

When Adam and Eve had sinned by eating the forbidden fruit from the knowledge of good and evil, they now know as we all do now what is outside the will of God; nothing good.

Sin pollutes and corrupts and gets worse and worse. Harboring even sinful thoughts can defile a man and soon tempt the man to commit sin.

Sin has people in bondage. Sin can bring Christians in bondage again where they will be in such a worse sinful state than when they were before they were saved.

Let us consider what you are espousing. For anyone to agree with your espousing, then they would have to submit, right? Because deviating from your espousing would not bring the desired result for submitting and you would point that out to them.

So using liberty as a cloak for submitting to your espousing can not be any different than one submitting to Christ. The difference betwen you two is that effor as in any other religion or free thinkers is an effort on your part to submit to whereas submitting to Christ is surrendering to Him, trusting Him to help them to follow Him to be good and to do good. That is how we get to know Him and the power of His resurrection & that is good.

So are we in bondage to doing the law? No for that is not how we are to live, let alone follow Him by the religious flesh and will power.

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.... 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

So do we live in sin as in doing whatever we want? No.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Having been a dog that had returned to his vomit, and afflicted by the forces of darkness (scary ), I am grateful that the Lord had delevered me from my habitual sin and helped set me free from my wicked imaginations too as well as delivering me from the evil one. I trust Him to continue to keep me from falling and to present me faultless to His glory.

So no matter what; you either submit to Whom is good, Jesus Christ, or find out the hard way that the only other submission that exists is not good at all.

It is best to be wary when one is informed he is in an either/or situation, and that there are only two alternative choices. When a WWII German vessel was trapped inside a South American harbor, its commander was informed to either surrender, or, be blown to bits; he enacted a third alternative and, scuttled his ship...
I find the notion that one absolutely must do the will of another, or, be punished even unto death, to be a most horrid state of affairs, commonly known as slavery.

 

[Enow]

It is best to be wary when one is informed he is in an either/or situation, and that there are only two alternative choices. When a WWII German vessel was trapped inside a South American harbor, its commander was informed to either surrender, or, be blown to bits; he enacted a third alternative and, scuttled his ship...
I find the notion that one absolutely must do the will of another, or, be punished even unto death, to be a most horrid state of affairs, commonly known as slavery.

Submitting to Christ, one gets better and better and be fruitful with joy;

Submitting otherwise, sinners and believers will find out that it gets worse and worse per their sinful nature.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

I can say that when you do see yourself getting worse and worse, you can call on Jesus to save you from it. I did and He has delivered me and is keeping me even though it looked like it had overcome me, but I reckon it was not too late for me since He has and is keeping me from my sins.